Stephen Trapani wrote:


I am NOT defending random tossing of missiles into Israel by these
guys. Not even close. I'm only saying that, IMO, US policy isn't
looking at the entire picture.

Part of the entire picture is that Israel has created a secular,
democratic, free society that is very attractive to many if only because
it is so rare in that area. Israel, while not perfect, is a shining
beacon of morality and opportunity and that is the biggest reason
radical Islam wants it destroyed. It is also the biggest reason it is
our duty to help defend it.


But you see, Stephen, that's not accurate aside from the Israeli press
releases. South Africa created a secular, democratic, free society too -
for whites. Israel has done the same -- for Jews.

Also it is NOT secular. Don't believe me? Well, try for a pork rib
dinner in Tel Aviv and then report back your findings. It's anything but
a secular state. Jews today just aren't nearly as offensive culturally
as many find Arabs, that's all but the secularism just is not there.

Capt. JG wrote:
"slide" wrote in message


I am NOT defending random tossing of missiles into Israel by these guys.
Not even close. I'm only saying that, IMO, US policy isn't looking at the
entire picture.


I agree... we're not looking at the entire picture. We need to be a
relatively unbiased broker if we want to help resolve the conflict. However,
your statement that all the people who immigrated to Israel with sponsored
by the wealthy is false. I know for a fact that's false, since I have some
very unwealthy friends who moved there on their own, struggled for years,
and finally became what we would call middle class. There are Palestinian
Israelis who own businesses and have money... not as many as there are
Jewish Israelis certainly.


There are many unbiased brokers but neither side will abide by their
decisions or even sit down with them. I can nominate Finland or Norway
as two good candidates for neutrality.

The problem is (I've spoken to many Israelis here) that the Jews believe
themselves to be a special case. They don't see any inconsistency
between demanding racial integration for the US or South Africa but
refusing it for Israel because it means 'national survival'. That is, in
time, the Arab would be more than 50% of the population and out vote the
Jew - which they welcome in South Africa but won't stand for at home.

Even before then, if the Arab could have members in the Knesset, the
Jews would have to deal them in for consideration in policy. Clearly the
Jews are utterly unwilling to do that - again national survival. If I
push it, then they throw the German Exterminations in my face which
tends to be a discussion stopper.

The Arab is probably as bad in he feels like his home was taken from him
by greedy Jews backed by the evil USA & UK. How accurate is that? I
can't say but the Arab says they are victims and the Jews say they are
the victimizer.

By this time both sides have outraged the other so often that either can
make a case for exterminating the other.

Capt. JG wrote:
"slide" wrote in message


Uh, the wall, the machine guns, the lack of any representation within the
Knesset - those are, if mentioned, just more Antisemitism.


Not at all. Those should be up for discussion and should be, must be
resolved. The difference is that Larry cries Zionistist plots and spews
anti-Jewish statements whenever he pleases. He's got the right to do that,
but I have just as much right to call him on it.


I'm not Larry & I see no Zoinist plots here. What I do see is a society
which excludes due to race or religion and the refusal of the ruling
class to even discuss the matter.

wrote:
On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:05:09 -0800, Capt. JG wrote:


I don't believe in Zionist plots, but it's difficult to ignore the
similarities between the Gaza strip, and the Warsaw Ghetto.

It's easy to find similarities to many things if you look close enough.
They are in no way comparable. It's a gross misstatement. Gaza is a
terrible place, but it's not a walled in concentration camp.


They're not comparable? Open your eyes. They are both walled in,
movement of civilians is strictly controlled, food, fuel, medicine,
strictly controlled. Gaza is a prison in which women, children, and
other innocent civilians are forced to live. No way around it, the
oppressed have become the oppressors.


Why is it when talking about Gaza, people always seem to forget that it
borders two countries? Ask yourself why the Islamic world isn't
screaming to the heavens about the Egyptian blockade? Seems some, maybe
a lot of Muslims don't want the Palestinians either.

Cheers
Martin

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:31:52 -0700, slide
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:


Though I can't disagree with anything you've said, I do think the
Israeli jews believe they will be slaughtered, or exiled from Israel
should they treat Palestinians like we in the U.S. treat Mexicans or
blacks. I'm not sure of that, but if were an Israeli I suspect I
would take that tack. Though we've been multicultural throughout our
history, there is plenty of opposition here in the U.S. to letting the
language aspect of multiculturalism bleed into everyday life. I get a
bit ****ed every time I'm asked to choose 1 or 2 on the phone.
Wouldn't think of moving to Mexico and conducting business on the
phone without speaking Spanish.
So I'm sure we agree on some things.
My support for the Palestinians dried up when Israel finally withdrew
from the occupied territories and I saw the result.
Not a damned thing changed.
Blood lust. Not too different than the other radical Muslims.
Except when I feel the lust myself - and I have - I take no sides.
These are just off the cuff remarks, and I may be wrong about much of
it, and since nobody pays for my opinions, that's what they're worth.
Nothing. But I do like to write them down now and then.
And hear others' opinions.



The reasoning you give for the Jews demanding an essentially ethnically
clean State is the one that Israelis living here have said to me. Their
argument is identical to the whites in South Africa before the black
takeover. They won't live in a non-Jewish (non white when it comes to
SA) state.

There are parallels, but Rhodesia might be a better example of the end
result. And I actually think the Muslim/Jew divide in that area of
the globe is greater than the black/white divide anywhere.
There are also historical "homeland" elements which are quite
different.

Why? Would those same Jews demand that no area, no voting district, no
precinct in the US be less than 51% white?

I don't like it. I just don't see any other answer for the Israelis
from their view. I really don't think they are happy with it
philosophically, but see it in simple survival terms.

The problem, as I understand it, with the areas now in fully Palestinian
hands is that there are no ways to make a living there. There is no
industry. No capital. Nothing. Sure, many impoverished Jews showed up in
Israel during the past 60 years (or more) but they were sponsored by
wealthy Jews from other lands such as Britain and the USA.

As I recall it, after the Israeli withdrawal from occupied
territories, and before the wall and checkpoints, there were numerous
suicide bombings.
What's the solution to that?

What causes radical Muslims? Part of it must be that there is nothing
for them to lose in this world so they become easy to convince that
their payoff is in taking out a few Jews rather than living a welfare
life in some camp forever. Look at these guys as being Mexicans peering
across the border to a prosperous land they wish to enter & work in.
They can't because they are caged up, wall up and patrolled with machine
guns.

Somebody has already mentioned the democracy aspect.
Mexico has a democracy.
The Palestinian democracy elected Hamas to lead.
There are so many differences in the situations, that drawing
parallels is practically fruitless.
Israel basically stands alone.
Throw in Iran, the Sunni Jew/Christian-hating sects, etc, etc., and it
only gets worse.
The root of the problem isn't Israel, it's Muslim theocracy.
My opinion.

I am NOT defending random tossing of missiles into Israel by these guys.
Not even close. I'm only saying that, IMO, US policy isn't looking at
the entire picture.

I used to think the U.S. could solve this by taking an even-handed
approach, and threaten U.S. retaliation against whichever side broke
agreements. Lay down some equitable standards both side would agree
to and all would be well.
Sharon's expansion of settlements into the West Bank and Gaza really
****ed me off. I was happy - and surprised - to see the Israelis pull
out. Wasn't a PM assassinated by an Israeli extremist because of
that?
Sorry, I'm a bit tired of even keeping up.
In any case, I'm sure the Israelis would like to live in peace.
The Arabs will not allow it.
Again, I might be wrong. But this is one of the few things where I
just can't draw on my inherent optimism.
I can feel the blood lust on both sides.

--Vic

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
news
slide wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:

Though I can't disagree with anything you've said, I do think the
Israeli jews believe they will be slaughtered, or exiled from Israel
should they treat Palestinians like we in the U.S. treat Mexicans or
blacks. I'm not sure of that, but if were an Israeli I suspect I
would take that tack. Though we've been multicultural throughout our
history, there is plenty of opposition here in the U.S. to letting the
language aspect of multiculturalism bleed into everyday life. I get a
bit ****ed every time I'm asked to choose 1 or 2 on the phone.
Wouldn't think of moving to Mexico and conducting business on the
phone without speaking Spanish.
So I'm sure we agree on some things.
My support for the Palestinians dried up when Israel finally withdrew
from the occupied territories and I saw the result.
Not a damned thing changed. Blood lust. Not too different than the
other radical Muslims.
Except when I feel the lust myself - and I have - I take no sides.
These are just off the cuff remarks, and I may be wrong about much of
it, and since nobody pays for my opinions, that's what they're worth.
Nothing. But I do like to write them down now and then.
And hear others' opinions.


The reasoning you give for the Jews demanding an essentially ethnically
clean State is the one that Israelis living here have said to me. Their
argument is identical to the whites in South Africa before the black
takeover. They won't live in a non-Jewish (non white when it comes to
SA) state.

Why? Would those same Jews demand that no area, no voting district, no
precinct in the US be less than 51% white?

The problem, as I understand it, with the areas now in fully
Palestinian hands is that there are no ways to make a living there.
There is no industry. No capital. Nothing. Sure, many impoverished Jews
showed up in Israel during the past 60 years (or more) but they were
sponsored by wealthy Jews from other lands such as Britain and the USA.

What causes radical Muslims? Part of it must be that there is nothing
for them to lose in this world so they become easy to convince that
their payoff is in taking out a few Jews rather than living a welfare
life in some camp forever. Look at these guys as being Mexicans peering
across the border to a prosperous land they wish to enter & work in.
They can't because they are caged up, wall up and patrolled with
machine guns.

I am NOT defending random tossing of missiles into Israel by these
guys. Not even close. I'm only saying that, IMO, US policy isn't
looking at the entire picture.
Part of the entire picture is that Israel has created a secular,
democratic, free society that is very attractive to many if only because
it is so rare in that area. Israel, while not perfect, is a shining
beacon of morality and opportunity and that is the biggest reason
radical Islam wants it destroyed. It is also the biggest reason it is
our duty to help defend it.

Stephen


Whew.. I don't usually agree with you, but your comments (taken with the
appropriately size grains of salt) I mostly agree with.

My editing... the society is mostly secular, but not completely, since it
is the "Jewish State,"

I was watching a program about the best commercials of the year and there
was a commercial from Israel with crazy dancing rabbis saying that HD TV
was so good you'd go to hell for watching it. That qualifies as secular
enough IMO.

Stephen


Now that's funny! Thanks...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:13:37 -0800, "Capt. JG"
said:

it is democratic, and as "free" as you can get, given
that there are things like a compulsary draft

Interesting comment. So a country without an all volunteer military is not
by your lights free.


I guess not. I don't know. Are we a free country? I think it's unclear what
constitutes free... lots of gradations. Is the current Russia a free
country? Is China? Compared to Syria, Israel is a free country. Compared to
Iceland?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
t...
On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:05:09 -0800, Capt. JG wrote:


I don't believe in Zionist plots, but it's difficult to ignore the
similarities between the Gaza strip, and the Warsaw Ghetto.


It's easy to find similarities to many things if you look close enough.
They are in no way comparable. It's a gross misstatement. Gaza is a
terrible place, but it's not a walled in concentration camp.


They're not comparable? Open your eyes. They are both walled in,
movement of civilians is strictly controlled, food, fuel, medicine,
strictly controlled. Gaza is a prison in which women, children, and
other innocent civilians are forced to live. No way around it, the
oppressed have become the oppressors.


Come on... Germany eliminated the ghetto.. liquidated it. You would be
hard-pressed to find even an extremist zionist to advocate that.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:05:09 -0800, Capt. JG wrote:


I don't believe in Zionist plots, but it's difficult to ignore the
similarities between the Gaza strip, and the Warsaw Ghetto.

It's easy to find similarities to many things if you look close enough.
They are in no way comparable. It's a gross misstatement. Gaza is a
terrible place, but it's not a walled in concentration camp.


They're not comparable? Open your eyes. They are both walled in,
movement of civilians is strictly controlled, food, fuel, medicine,
strictly controlled. Gaza is a prison in which women, children, and
other innocent civilians are forced to live. No way around it, the
oppressed have become the oppressors.

The irony of your contention is that they are "walled in" by other Arab
societies as much as by Israel. Why not blame the others?

Stephen


I agree. Egypt has a common border... don't see any complaints directed at
Egypt. How come they don't open the border?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"slide" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"slide" wrote in message


Uh, the wall, the machine guns, the lack of any representation within
the Knesset - those are, if mentioned, just more Antisemitism.


Not at all. Those should be up for discussion and should be, must be
resolved. The difference is that Larry cries Zionistist plots and spews
anti-Jewish statements whenever he pleases. He's got the right to do
that, but I have just as much right to call him on it.


I'm not Larry & I see no Zoinist plots here. What I do see is a society
which excludes due to race or religion and the refusal of the ruling class
to even discuss the matter.


It's discussed all the time. The perhaps dismiss it, but it's an ongoing
discussion in Israeli society.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com