On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:17 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,


I have dipped again into my book and think you may be right as when at San
Pedro loading hides it is mentioned that there is a large cattle ranch
somewhat inland. And yes they did throw them down a cliff and because the
rough stony beach quickly wore out their valuable shoes, they carried the
hides on their heads down to the ships boat while barefoot.
However he also says that the number of hides was becoming less as the years
progressed, which is not surprising since one single ship was loaded with no
less than forty thousand hides and a smaller ship carried only thirty
thousand.
I came across some gems too:-
"The Californians are an idle, thriftless people, and can make nothing for
themselves"
"San Diego (he told me) was a small snug place, having very little trade,
but decidedly the best harbour on the coast, being completely landlocked,
and the water as smooth as a duckpond"

I think it is time I reread the whole book.


Didn't the book also result in improved working conditions and
treatment for sailors? I think I remember something about that also,
not in the book itself, of course.

Being from New England I re-read Moby Dick periodically. I wonder if
whaling were restricted to sailing ships and row boats it might not
solve the whale problem. I wonder whether you could hire people today
to row out and spear a whale... by hand.... in a row boat....without a
PFD... in the Southern Ocean... in the winter time?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:50:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:11:17 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:01:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

I believe you're correct. I think the buffalo were mostly wiped out
by "sportsmen" on shooting sprees.

Of course not. It was market hunting for the hides. This with the
connivance of the gov who wanted to force the indians to eat gov beef
on a reservation. They killed all but 500, but now there are about 600
000, many in private herds. I guess they have to harvest them with
guns. Too big and mean to walk up a ramp into a truck.

Didn't know there was a big market for those hides.
'Course I wasn't there (-:
I do recall reading accounts of buffalo being shot from train windows
and Buffalo Bill shooting some hundreds in a day, in which cases the
buffalo were left to rot where they fell.
But maybe that was exaggerated by the "bleeding heart" crowd.
When I'm in the mood I'll look it up.
Seems fencing the range, cattlemen, and farmers would have had a big
effect too.

--Vic

I've seen photos of buffalo bones piled higher then a steam train
engine for what looked like hundreds of yards and there are
contemporary writings reporting what the buffalo hunters shot. I don't
think your numbers are exaggerated.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Way off topic here but some random thoughts.......

As I recall the Arch Duke Ferdinand, the guy that got shot to start WW1,
was famous for hiring a train for a "hunting" trip. He would run
through a wild region when the caribou or whatever were migrating and
shot himself silly, killing hundreds.

Munich has a hunting museum. They have a painting of some royal having
a "hunt" where they run hundreds of deer into a river to drown them.

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently
they just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'. My Aunt
sometimes makes "flipper" but has to plan to get the meat. She has to
get someone from Gander to go up to Twillingate to get the meat when the
boats come in. Most don't bring any meat home. Not bad if it is cooked
right.

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:17 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.

It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

I have dipped again into my book and think you may be right as when at San
Pedro loading hides it is mentioned that there is a large cattle ranch
somewhat inland. And yes they did throw them down a cliff and because the
rough stony beach quickly wore out their valuable shoes, they carried the
hides on their heads down to the ships boat while barefoot.
However he also says that the number of hides was becoming less as the years
progressed, which is not surprising since one single ship was loaded with no
less than forty thousand hides and a smaller ship carried only thirty
thousand.
I came across some gems too:-
"The Californians are an idle, thriftless people, and can make nothing for
themselves"
"San Diego (he told me) was a small snug place, having very little trade,
but decidedly the best harbour on the coast, being completely landlocked,
and the water as smooth as a duckpond"

I think it is time I reread the whole book.


Didn't the book also result in improved working conditions and
treatment for sailors? I think I remember something about that also,
not in the book itself, of course.

Being from New England I re-read Moby Dick periodically. I wonder if
whaling were restricted to sailing ships and row boats it might not
solve the whale problem. I wonder whether you could hire people today
to row out and spear a whale... by hand.... in a row boat....without a
PFD... in the Southern Ocean... in the winter time?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

I have a few co-workers I would like to volunteer for the duty.

"hpeer" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of
life aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern
California in those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed
there for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides,
compressing them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would
lift a ships deck up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so
no wonder there are not so many of these animals left. I doubt there
were enough people there in those days to eat all the carcasses so they
must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and
was inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.

It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Way off topic here but some random thoughts.......

As I recall the Arch Duke Ferdinand, the guy that got shot to start WW1,
was famous for hiring a train for a "hunting" trip. He would run through
a wild region when the caribou or whatever were migrating and shot himself
silly, killing hundreds.

Munich has a hunting museum. They have a painting of some royal having a
"hunt" where they run hundreds of deer into a river to drown them.

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently they
just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'. My Aunt
sometimes makes "flipper" but has to plan to get the meat. She has to get
someone from Gander to go up to Twillingate to get the meat when the boats
come in. Most don't bring any meat home. Not bad if it is cooked right.

I remember the one time I was in St.John's back in 1969.
They were selling raw seal flippers on wooden tables down on the waterfront.
The locals claimed they tasted great.
I passed.

hpeer wrote:

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently
they just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'.

I don't know anybody that eats mink meat......

Cheers
Martin

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:05:05 -0500, hpeer wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Way off topic here but some random thoughts.......

As I recall the Arch Duke Ferdinand, the guy that got shot to start WW1,
was famous for hiring a train for a "hunting" trip. He would run
through a wild region when the caribou or whatever were migrating and
shot himself silly, killing hundreds.

Munich has a hunting museum. They have a painting of some royal having
a "hunt" where they run hundreds of deer into a river to drown them.

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently
they just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'. My Aunt
sometimes makes "flipper" but has to plan to get the meat. She has to
get someone from Gander to go up to Twillingate to get the meat when the
boats come in. Most don't bring any meat home. Not bad if it is cooked
right.


I've read accounts of the buffalo herds "covering the ground as far as
you could see". Just as the Grand Banks cod fish, no one ever believed
that man could kill 'em all.

By the way, I just read a report that the melting polar ice caps will
likely put paid to a large percentage of two species of penguins.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

By the way, I just read a report that the melting polar ice caps will
likely put paid to a large percentage of two species of penguins.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

PBEM Policy-based Evidence Making

See this article on melting polar caps and be sure to read the whole
thing to get the cruising aspect!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...ard_polar_ice/

Gordon

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

I've read accounts of the buffalo herds "covering the ground as far as
you could see". Just as the Grand Banks cod fish, no one ever believed
that man could kill 'em all. ....
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Oh, there were more buffalo, far more buffalo than would cover one horizon.
Try this: buffalo moving, as far as the eye could see in any direction,
moving day and night, for three days, from eye-witness accounts; seen
right here where I live in this little town on the southern edge of the
prairie. But that was then. The local buffalo herd (Wichita Mountains
State Park) has perhaps a hundred....
Twenty miles from here, on the North Fork of the Red River, was the
site of the first government meeting and treaty-making with the Plains
Indians. That treaty was short lived..... Signed at Devil's Canyon.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK