While I agree that a background in engineering is a must to design yachts,
the PE requirement is completely stupid.
A PE license does not show that you are able to design boats. In addition to
a good engineering base, a yacht designer must qualify in two other fields:
extensive experience at sea and experience in boat building.
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.
The licensing requirement would have very negative effects on yacht design,
on new designs availabilty and price, on boats prices and on boating in
general.
Most of the people who design boats today, while very able, do not have a
PE. They may be mechanical engineers, architects or as in my case, have
degrees in chemistry and physics. Some may just be autodidacts and there is
nothing wrong with that.
The requirements of today's designs make the selection automatic: you will
not get a job as a yacht designer if you can not do your basic calculations.
The reason for that licensing requirement was the move of many US ship
building activities to other parts of the world. Large ship naval architects
were looking for work and discovered yacht design. A licensing requirement
would have them "supervise" the work of real yacht designers but the PE's
would charge for their stamp of approval thereby increasing the costs of
designing new boats and almost certainly killing creativity. They just want
their cut . . .
I have no immediate concerns because I don't design large yachts but
tomorrow, the requirement may extend to the type of boat I design, less than
65'.

I became a member of the SNAME at a time when membership required two senior
fellows a sponsors. That was a sufficient guarantee of expertise: work a few
years for another designer and then for a yacht manufacturer and they'll
decide waht you are worth.
An exam during which I would have to calculate the efficiency of a steam
engine will not prove that I am able to design a yacht.
No school or diploma will ever give you all what is needed to become a good
yacht designer. To take a beating in a mean storm and hands on boat building
experience are absolutely necessary but not taught in schools.
If one day I need the help of a PE, I will ask for it. I worked with an
excellent one at James Krogen. I don't think that I would get a commission
to design a larger yacht without setting up such a collaboration but let's
not make it a blanket requirement. It would kill our profession.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Agfb.670589$Ho3.141187@sccrnsc03...
Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required)
and
'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys
get
all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell
there's
pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put a
Grey Davis TAX on it too.

Brian


"Michael Porter" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" wrote:


I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and
Westlawn
higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the
American
Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the
National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in
the
boat industry.
snip I agree

Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow.

Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval
arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most
states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under
200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch,


I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree.

Cheers,

Michael Porter

Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder
mporter at mp-marine dot com
www.mp-marine.com

Hi

"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse
.. .

Snip
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.

But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a
bit math.

P.C.

Per, read the whole post before responding.
I agree with you.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"P.C." wrote in message
k...
Hi

"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse
.. .

Snip
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.

But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do
just a
bit math.

P.C.

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message ...
Per, read the whole post before responding.
I agree with you.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

Just curious… And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


"P.C." wrote in message
k...
Hi

"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse
.. .

Snip
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.

But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do
just a
bit math.

P.C.

(Backyard Renegade) lifted the trapdoor, peered
around and wrote:

Just curious… And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com

I am new here too ... but here is some of what I know of Usenet:

No one can *exclude* you! This forum is not moderated, you are entirely
free to post what you want. Whether or not you get useful replies, depends
on the prescence of like-minded posters.

All newsgroups attract the "opinionated" ... and this is not necessarily a
bad thing After all, opinion is often just what is being sought, and you
really would benefit from the following: Take what you need, and leave the
rest. If you can also contribute, that helps.

I have no idea who SNAME are, but as the old saying *sort of* goes:

If they wanted me, I probably wouldn't want to join ... lmao

Don't ever lose your sense of humour on Usenet, that way lies the asylum

steveb
---
Nervous breakdowns are hereditory.
We get them from our children
---

Steve:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.

In reply to Scotty (assuming I read his question correctly), I guess you
need to put this in context. SNAME (The Society of Naval Architects and
Marine Engineers) and other professional societies cater to professionals.
Educating the hobbyist is just not part of their mandate. We pay a sizable
annual membership fee (something like $150/year) for the services that they
provide. So it is not surprising that you'll find very little from them.

Let me offer some thoughts based on my requirements as an instructor of an
Intro to Naval Architecture class I teach that the Univ of New Hampshire. I
have a semester to introduce the subject to mechanical engineering seniors
(it is a technical elective class). I use "Naval Architecture for Non-Naval
Architects" as a text (published by SNAME), along with information gleaned
from other naval architects and writers (much of which you can find in trade
magazines such as Professional Boatbuilder). (In particular, look for Dudley
Dawson's article "Once Around the Design Spiral", from Professional
Boatbuilder Oct/Nov 1997.) For students who want to try developing lines, I
point them first to Greg Carlson's small freeware chine hull program. Its
not without its limitations and holes, but it is a pretty nice little tool -
with almost no learning curve. And they can punch out DXF files of shell
plates and bulkheads to build small models. By the time they are done, they
will have completed a small design project and write a tech paper on a naval
architecture subject of their choice. Certainly not a 4-year program in
naval architecture, but enough to get their feet wet.

Regards,

Don

Donald M. MacPherson
VP Technical Director
HydroComp, Inc.
http://www.hydrocompinc.com




"steveb" wrote in message
...
(Backyard Renegade) lifted the trapdoor, peered
around and wrote:

Just curious. And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com

I am new here too ... but here is some of what I know of Usenet:

No one can *exclude* you! This forum is not moderated, you are entirely
free to post what you want. Whether or not you get useful replies, depends
on the prescence of like-minded posters.

All newsgroups attract the "opinionated" ... and this is not necessarily a
bad thing After all, opinion is often just what is being sought, and
you
really would benefit from the following: Take what you need, and leave the
rest. If you can also contribute, that helps.

I have no idea who SNAME are, but as the old saying *sort of* goes:

If they wanted me, I probably wouldn't want to join ... lmao

Don't ever lose your sense of humour on Usenet, that way lies the asylum


steveb
---
Nervous breakdowns are hereditory.
We get them from our children
---

"D MacPherson" lifted the
trapdoor, peered around and wrote:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.

You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged
from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames"
doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say

steveb

"D MacPherson" wrote in message . ..
Steve:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.

In reply to Scotty (assuming I read his question correctly), I guess you
need to put this in context. SNAME (The Society of Naval Architects and
Marine Engineers) and other professional societies cater to professionals.
Educating the hobbyist is just not part of their mandate. We pay a sizable
annual membership fee (something like $150/year) for the services that they
provide. So it is not surprising that you'll find very little from them.

I understand that completely, and find that fair enough. I should note
that I am quickly grandfathering into being qualified to join SNAME,
and when the time comes, I will attempt to do so. I do want access to
this information too, I have no doubt as to its value as an
organization. I am not sure I would like them to be the regulating
organization for all manufacturers.


Let me offer some thoughts based on my requirements as an instructor of an
Intro to Naval Architecture class I teach that the Univ of New Hampshire. I
have a semester to introduce the subject to mechanical engineering seniors
(it is a technical elective class). I use "Naval Architecture for Non-Naval
Architects" as a text (published by SNAME), along with information gleaned
from other naval architects and writers (much of which you can find in trade
magazines such as Professional Boatbuilder). (In particular, look for Dudley
Dawson's article "Once Around the Design Spiral", from Professional
Boatbuilder Oct/Nov 1997.) For students who want to try developing lines, I
point them first to Greg Carlson's small freeware chine hull program. Its
not without its limitations and holes, but it is a pretty nice little tool -
with almost no learning curve. And they can punch out DXF files of shell
plates and bulkheads to build small models. By the time they are done, they
will have completed a small design project and write a tech paper on a naval
architecture subject of their choice. Certainly not a 4-year program in
naval architecture, but enough to get their feet wet.

Regards,

Don

Donald M. MacPherson
VP Technical Director
HydroComp, Inc.
http://www.hydrocompinc.com




"steveb" wrote in message
...
(Backyard Renegade) lifted the trapdoor, peered
around and wrote:

Just curious. And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com

I am new here too ... but here is some of what I know of Usenet:

No one can *exclude* you! This forum is not moderated, you are entirely
free to post what you want. Whether or not you get useful replies, depends
on the prescence of like-minded posters.

All newsgroups attract the "opinionated" ... and this is not necessarily a
bad thing After all, opinion is often just what is being sought, and
you
really would benefit from the following: Take what you need, and leave the
rest. If you can also contribute, that helps.

I have no idea who SNAME are, but as the old saying *sort of* goes:

If they wanted me, I probably wouldn't want to join ... lmao

Don't ever lose your sense of humour on Usenet, that way lies the asylum


steveb
---
Nervous breakdowns are hereditory.
We get them from our children
---

"D MacPherson" wrote in message . ..


Let me offer some thoughts based on my requirements as an instructor of an
Intro to Naval Architecture class I teach that the Univ of New Hampshire. I
have a semester to introduce the subject to mechanical engineering seniors
(it is a technical elective class). I use "Naval Architecture for Non-Naval
Architects" as a text (published by SNAME), along with information gleaned
from other naval architects and writers (much of which you can find in trade
magazines such as Professional Boatbuilder). (In particular, look for Dudley
Dawson's article "Once Around the Design Spiral", from Professional
Boatbuilder Oct/Nov 1997.) For students who want to try developing lines, I
point them first to Greg Carlson's small freeware chine hull program. Its
not without its limitations and holes, but it is a pretty nice little tool -
with almost no learning curve. And they can punch out DXF files of shell
plates and bulkheads to build small models. By the time they are done, they
will have completed a small design project and write a tech paper on a naval
architecture subject of their choice. Certainly not a 4-year program in
naval architecture, but enough to get their feet wet.

Regards,

Don

Donald M. MacPherson
VP Technical Director
HydroComp, Inc.
http://www.hydrocompinc.com

Yes, that is a good program. I have been drawing out a personal skiff
(20 feet) for about a year now and used that program quite a bit along
the way. It did give me a pretty good feel for not only how my boat
would "work", but also gave me a lot of direction as to where I wanted
the hull design to go and what I was looking for. Using the
calculations available there I have designed the hull, and the
interior including placement of components and taking into account
crew, equipment and such. After a year, I am almost ready to start
cutting lumber, of course I did have one more thing to do. Last week I
sent it off to a SNAME/ABYC etc. professional designer who I am hiring
to make sure everything is right, and if not to redesign it to give me
the tool I need for my boating purposes.
Scotty

"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...


Just curious. And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


There is a lot of creativity in amateur designers and I would hate to see it
killed by some regulations.
I don't say that one should belong to the SNAME, I am in favor of leaving
the profession or hobby wide open.
Since you build your own boats, you know your limits and whatever plan you
produce will be buildable and float right side up.
Once you start selling plans, you have a duty to your builders but there is
no need for an oversight or for regulations. Natural selection will work
quickly and that is the way it should be.