Andrew Toppan vented spleen or mostly mumbled...

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:33:51 -0400, "Charles Talleyrand"
wrote:

I'm interested in any time period from ancient Egypt to maybe
Napoleon. I'm just trying to get an order of magnitude informed guess.
Significant Google searching didn't help. Can anyone here help?

10 seconds of Googling for HMS VICTORY indicates that she "cost
£63,176. For comparison, this would be equivalent to the cost of
building an aircraft carrier today."


Awww, no....

That could only build one of those cut rate RN CVs to be, you know, two
thrudeck crusiers welded together, one island removed, and a bit of
planking laid across the gap.

TMO

I suspect that for most sailing warships, especially the 1st and 2nd Rates,
the cost of the "Pupkeep" far outweighed those of the original "pup".

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:33:51 -0400, "Charles Talleyrand"
wrote:

I'm trying to understand the cost of building an oceangoing ship in
some terms I can understand. I great answer would be of the form
"To build an 80 ft sailing vessel in 1492 took about 14,000 man/hours" or
something like that.

Or "One could buy a 100 ft sailing vessel in Venice for 9000 florins,
and each florin could hire a skilled worker for a week."

I'm interested in any time period from ancient Egypt to maybe Napoleon.
I'm just trying to get an order of magnitude informed guess.

Significant Google searching didn't help. Can anyone here help?



You might try "The 74 Gun Ship" Jean Boudret, French originally
but well translated, or Lavery's "The Ship of the Line." I'm not
certain they'll have exactly what you want, but allow a week,
they tend to be adicting and they aren't thin.

Good luck

____

Peter Skelton

It is not going to be easy to equate pre-17th century cost to the
present but once you get an idea of labor and material it will probably
be good from the first century up through the 16th. While designs
changed materials and construction methods did not change very much and
while material prices varied over time long term inflation was virtually
unheard of.

I can give you a small modern day comparison of labor if not total cost.
I have a favorite stopping point in Bay des Cays Haiti that I have
stopped by several times over the years. For the past 2 years there has
been a group of 3 men directed by an incredibly old guy building a 65'
schooner on the beach. They are doing it the old fashioned way with
axes and adzes, pegs, oakum and tar. Keel was laid in February 2000 and
when we stopped by in May of this year they were preparing to set the
masts.

I figure they can only work 10 hours a day probably 300 days a year so a
SWAG would be 18,000 hours + - maximum if my math is right. (2 yrs*300
days*10 hours*3 men.) Actual time is probably a lot less because they
had to spend a lot of time scrounging material. (We donated an old
blown out genoa and a worn halyard.)

Other adjustments include:
Labor and material requirement goes up as the cube of the length so an
85' hull would probably require twice the labor of a 65' one.

A 15th century trading vessel would have been a bit more elaborate than
this boat and a war ship considerably more.

A 15th century ship yard would have more tools and equipment to work
with than these poor fellows.

Charles Talleyrand wrote:
I'm trying to understand the cost of building an oceangoing ship in
some terms I can understand. I great answer would be of the form
"To build an 80 ft sailing vessel in 1492 took about 14,000 man/hours" or
something like that.

Or "One could buy a 100 ft sailing vessel in Venice for 9000 florins,
and each florin could hire a skilled worker for a week."

I'm interested in any time period from ancient Egypt to maybe Napoleon.
I'm just trying to get an order of magnitude informed guess.

Significant Google searching didn't help. Can anyone here help?






--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...


I'm interested in any time period from ancient Egypt to maybe Napoleon.
I'm just trying to get an order of magnitude informed guess.


I found this fascinating link:
http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowi...me/thesis.html

For reference, Kagan gives one drachma as a good day's pay for a skilled
Athenian craftsman, and there were 6000 drachmas in a silver talent.

--Justin

"Justin Broderick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...

I'm interested in any time period from ancient Egypt to maybe Napoleon.
I'm just trying to get an order of magnitude informed guess.

I found this fascinating link:
http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowi...me/thesis.html

For reference, Kagan gives one drachma as a good day's pay for a skilled
Athenian craftsman, and there were 6000 drachmas in a silver talent.

Another very interesting reference:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...d-germans.html

I have to admit, I have no idea as to what the value of a marten's head was
in 1229. For that matter, if you were paid in cloaks, exactly how many
cloaks do you need? Do you fob them off to your relatives?

Some of my favourite passages:

"When summer guests come to the torrent, which is called Vorsch the ferrymen
will take them immediately, without any delay, to the fishermen's inn,
where, on arrival, each boat will pay to the ferrymen four loaves of bread,
and a scutella of butter: if they do not want bread, two kunen will be given
in place of each loaf, and three martens' heads for the butter.
To each ferryman will be given eight martens' heads, and one pair of cloaks,
or, in place of the cloaks, three martens' heads. The summer guests will
observe the same law for paying thelony as is given above for winter guests.

When a guest brings skiffs into Novgorod, if such skiffs meet ships in Nü,
each skiff will receive its own price and a gammon of bacon, or five marks
kunen for the gammon. If the skiff meet merchants in Lake Ladoga, or in the
Volga, it will receive half the price, and half the bacon, or three marks
kunen. If any skiff, piloted with other skiffs, does not arrive at the
appointed time, it will lose its fee. If any skiff, piloted, but not laden,
is wrecked or endangered in the descent, it likewise will lose its fee. When
the merchants ascend by skiffs, and perchance some dispute arise between the
merchants and the ferrymen, or if an open quarrel occur, and the strife be
settled by agreement, the dispute should not be aired further."

The whole article is delightful. Thelony of course is tolls. The same
website comments on that in
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/805Chartoll.html , which is also
interesting.

All in all, I would have settled for several marten's heads, a cloak, and a
gammon of bacon, plus a few marks kunen.

AHS

your link gives this:

Athens supremacy at sea was founded upon her ability to utilise the trieres
as an effective weapon. She capitalised upon her role in the battle at
Salamis in 480 to win hegemony over some of her former allies. Thanks to the
encouragement of Themistokles, Athens had channelled the proceeds of a
windfall from the silver mines at Laurium into a fleet. They were designed
by Themistokles himself "for speed and quick handling" (Plutarch Cimon
12.2). Her fleet of 200 triereis were built before the second Persian
Invasion, for a naval war with Aegina, and enabled the Greeks to repel the
invasion successfully. After the repulsion of the Persians the naval forces
under Athenian command liberated the Greek cities of Asia Minor and the
offshore Islands, part of Cyprus and even invaded Egypt (Morrison and
Coates, 1986).

but how long did it take to build the 200 ships, ie from getting the silver
to Salamis 480?

"Justin Broderick" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...


I'm interested in any time period from ancient Egypt to maybe Napoleon.
I'm just trying to get an order of magnitude informed guess.


I found this fascinating link:
http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowi...me/thesis.html

For reference, Kagan gives one drachma as a good day's pay for a skilled
Athenian craftsman, and there were 6000 drachmas in a silver talent.

--Justin

Here's a summary of the data about old-time ship construction I've gathered.
Much thanks to the people who helped add to this collection. Can anyone add more?

Unless stated otherwise, all prices are without weapons. For a normal
man-o-war the weapons might be 25% of the hull price give or take alot.
Sails might be the same amount.

A Greek Trireme in the ~400BCs cost ABOUT 5,000 drachma and the equipment
for it cost about 2,200 drachma. Each drachma is about a day's salary.
http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowi...me/thesis.html


A medium trader of 40 tons or more carring capacity must have cost about £100 when new
in 1580.

Prince Royal 1610, 114x43ft, 1330 tons, 55 guns:
Overall building cost was 20,000 pounds of which 441 went on carving and 868 7s on painting/guilding

Sovereign of the Seas 1637 of 169 foot on the gun deck and 1461 tons
http://www.kotiposti.net/felipe/England/england.html
Overall building cost 65,586 pounds 16s 9.5d (including guns)
of which 6,691 pounds on carving & decoration.

To build a 'bomb vessel' of about 100 feet in 1692 cost 2828 pounds which was about 120
man-years worth of salary for a skilled laboror, or 283 man-years for a common
sailor.

To build a "Third Rate" in 1692 would have cost about 22,000 pounds which is about
880 man-years salary (skilled) or 2,200 (common sailor)

In 1750 the Infernal bomb ship had a crew of 80 men and was ship-rigged at 96 ft long and 385
tons and cost about 3500 pounds. http://home.wnclink.com/russell/thunder.htm
which is the equivelent of 249,000 pounds in 2002.
http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/pound_re...action=compare

The HMS Victory of 100 guns and 186 foot on the gun deck displacing 2126 tons
cost 63,176 pounds.

A Dainish 70 gunner in 1780 cost 187,000 reichsguilder or 3,000 man-years of
for an ordinary sailor including guns and sails.

A Danish 90-gunner in 1790 cost 212,700 reichsguilder or about 3,500 man-years
for an ordinary sailor including sails and bronze guns.

And the USS Constitution cost $302,718 in 1797 US dollars,
although the Brits could build a 74 gun ship for less.
It took something like 25,000 man-months to build a Constitution (or a British 74).
The Constitution was way over budget, which was only $100,00.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/s...nstitution.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Al...43/supfrig.htm

In article ,
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:

Here's a summary of the data about old-time ship construction I've gathered.
Much thanks to the people who helped add to this collection. Can anyone add
more?

Unless stated otherwise, all prices are without weapons. For a normal
man-o-war the weapons might be 25% of the hull price give or take alot.
Sails might be the same amount.

A Greek Trireme in the ~400BCs cost ABOUT 5,000 drachma and the equipment
for it cost about 2,200 drachma. Each drachma is about a day's salary.
http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowi...me/thesis.html


A medium trader of 40 tons or more carring capacity must have cost about £100
when new
in 1580.

Prince Royal 1610, 114x43ft, 1330 tons, 55 guns:
Overall building cost was 20,000 pounds of which 441 went on carving and 868
7s on painting/guilding

Sovereign of the Seas 1637 of 169 foot on the gun deck and 1461 tons
http://www.kotiposti.net/felipe/England/england.html
Overall building cost 65,586 pounds 16s 9.5d (including guns)
of which 6,691 pounds on carving & decoration.

To build a 'bomb vessel' of about 100 feet in 1692 cost 2828 pounds which was
about 120
man-years worth of salary for a skilled laboror, or 283 man-years for a
common
sailor.

To build a "Third Rate" in 1692 would have cost about 22,000 pounds which is
about
880 man-years salary (skilled) or 2,200 (common sailor)

In 1750 the Infernal bomb ship had a crew of 80 men and was ship-rigged at 96
ft long and 385
tons and cost about 3500 pounds. http://home.wnclink.com/russell/thunder.htm
which is the equivelent of 249,000 pounds in 2002.
http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/pound_re...500&shillings=
&pence=&year2=1790&action=compare

The HMS Victory of 100 guns and 186 foot on the gun deck displacing 2126 tons
cost 63,176 pounds.

A Dainish 70 gunner in 1780 cost 187,000 reichsguilder or 3,000 man-years of
for an ordinary sailor including guns and sails.

A Danish 90-gunner in 1790 cost 212,700 reichsguilder or about 3,500
man-years
for an ordinary sailor including sails and bronze guns.

And the USS Constitution cost $302,718 in 1797 US dollars,
although the Brits could build a 74 gun ship for less.
It took something like 25,000 man-months to build a Constitution (or a
British 74).
The Constitution was way over budget, which was only $100,00.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/s...nstitution.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Al...43/supfrig.htm

While I've seen quotes from N.A.M. Rodger in this thread, I haven't seen
any mention of the Scottish ships built by James IV between 1504 and
1510. Rodger's "Safeguard of the Sea" says that the 6-700 tom Margaret
"cost a quarter of a year's revenue for James IV. That seems to work out
to about 1,250 Marks.

Note this doesn't include the 'shore establishment' that is so important
to actually sustaining naval power over significant numbers of decades.

Regards,

Tom Billings

--
Oregon L-5 Society

http://www.oregonl5.org/

A Dainish 70 gunner in 1780 cost 187,000 reichsguilder or 3,000 man-years
of
for an ordinary sailor including guns and sails.

A Danish 90-gunner in 1790 cost 212,700 reichsguilder or about 3,500
man-years
for an ordinary sailor including sails and bronze guns.


NB! The 292.700 riksdaler for the 90 is for the bronze guns _only_, hull and
rigging coming on top of that! The total cost for an eighty-gun ship on the
other hand, including hull, guns and rigging, was 390.152, bronze guns
included. For the record, the 90 would cost 410.382 riksdaler, all told.

The numbers above were drawn up in the same document, ca 1780.

Staale Sannerud