On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whereas if you _deisgn_ your own boat, you should burn it at the
_start of the sailing season, having spent your time out of season, on
your own, trying it out....
You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:52 +0800, OldNick
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whereas if you _deisgn_ your own boat, you should burn it at the
_start of the sailing season, having spent your time out of season, on
your own, trying it out....
You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.

I should have said "designed and built." Since it was for his own
amusement, he could do what he liked. I felt at the time that he
should overlap them enough to gauge any improvement.

Since I don't know what would have constituted an improvement on his
terms, my feelings are meaningless in this context.

What bothers me about many threads on this NG is prospective builders
who have no idea (from using boats) what characteristics they would
like a boat to have. Nobody else can tell them that.

They have to go sailing (or whatever they do with a boat) on enough
different boats to begin to understand the problem they are trying to
solve. If building a boat is the only point, they could just avoid
disappointment by burning it before launch, as you suggested.



Rodney Myrvaagnes Opinionated old geezer

Brutal dictators are routinely reelected by 90+%
margins. Only in a truly advanced democracy can
one win an election by a negative 600,000 votes.

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.


Oh for heaven's sake. A guy who's actually built a boat appears, asks a
respectful question, and this is the sort of useless quack people make.
If every aspiring designer had listened to this sort of cynical
self-defeating advice, we'd still be paddling across the river on a log.
You know, we shouldn't have anything to do with those guys with their wild
talk about hollowing out their logs. I have it on the best authority that
hollow logs attract bad juju, and anyway my grand-daddy paddled across the
river on a regular log and it was good enough for him, so it's good enough
for me.

There are a number of useful books: Google for Dave Gerr, Sam Devlin, and
some of the Gray Eminences of boat design like the Atkins and Chappelle
(primarily a historian, but vernacular design that has stood the
test of time is very often superior to things designed on the basis of
current trends.) Marchaj is a good source for empirical data. There are
several active boat design and building groups on Yahoo-- very useful
communities, and largely devoid of pointless discouragement. Make a list
of boats you like and research their designers. Often they'll have written
about their work, which will give useful insights into the design
philosophy they have developed. Eventually you'll develop your own, and
who knows? Sure, the odds are your boat will be no better and perhaps
worse in some respects than a design from the board of a professional, but
so what? It'll be yours, and that's what you want. In a hundred years it
won't matter a bit, and there are far less noble pastimes than trying to
create a thing of beauty.

There's a wealth of information out
there, and someone out there who's going to be the next great designer.
Might be Thomas. Probably not going to be someone who's excessively
concerned about the financial risks of home boatbuilding.

Ray, there are a great many postings on this (and other) board(s) from
inexperienced people, who seem to be getting off to a bad start. They
should be encouraged to get some experience in a variety of boats, and to
look long and hard at buying a commercial product, before building one.
And to research existing designs and designers, before trying to design
their own. The consequences of failure can, indeed, be high.

From Thomas's initial posting, it appeared to me (and others) that he might
be in this category. Having built one skiff, he was going on to design and
build a small but complex sailing craft. Not until later postings did it
emerge that he has significant experience on the water, in large and small
craft.

Anybody contemplating building a boat should be aware of the time, expense,
and risk involved - as well as the rewards and pleasures.


"Ray Aldridge" wrote in message
news

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.


Oh for heaven's sake. A guy who's actually built a boat appears, asks a
respectful question, and this is the sort of useless quack people make.
If every aspiring designer had listened to this sort of cynical
self-defeating advice, we'd still be paddling across the river on a log.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:24:55 GMT, "Thomas Veber"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

Good!

I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Ah! Good luck then!

In article , Thomas Veber
writes
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

Sounds rather like a Wayfarer dinghy, minus the little cabin.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and make
the design my self?

The only reason to design a boat yourself, is if you believe you can
produce a boat which is better, in specific ways, than existing designs.
What specific improvements do you feel your design would incorporate?
Would you be better off taking your design ideas to an established yacht
designer for them to incorporate in a professional design? Eg, if you
have an ingenious idea for a demountable lightweight folding cabin,
which offers advantages over existing cockpit tent arrangements, that
could possibly be a goer.

If you really want to design and build your own sailboat, then first
design and build a model racing yacht or three, or maybe an
International Moth, and race it. That will give you the most practical
insight into sailboat design for the least cost, plus contact with a
supportive community of similarly minded eccentrics.

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze?

You could buy an old Wayfarer or Leisure 17 or whatever, use the rig and
rudder on a similar size and displacement hull of your own design.

How do I ensure that the sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

By sailing it, that is the only way (unless maybe you have your own
testing tank and computer modelling facilities, or you are already an
experienced designer)

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

More than 500 hrs for a 15-16 foot boat is a bit excessive. 50 hours,
once you get good at it. 20 hrs for a model yacht.

--
Mark Dunlop

I built a boat last year of my own design, a 15 1/2' flat bottom boat
for duckhunting. It was the forth boat I've built. The reason I
designed it myself, is that there was no existing design that could do
what I wanted the boat to do. It has worked out very well. I'm very
happy with the boat. I looked at several other boats, designed by
professionals, that were about the same size and got ideas about how I
would build my boat. I read a book by Sam Devlin, that was very useful
on Stitch and Glue boats (my boat is stitch and glue). A very
satisfying experience overall. It took me 5 months to build the boat,
but I fooled around with different designs and built and tested 4 scale
models over a 2 year period before I started building. The design part
of the project was more time consuming than the actual construction.
My advice to you is to consider the hundreds of sail boat plans out
there, and only design one yourself only if no existing plan can be
modified to suit your needs. Here's an old link to Devlin's book on
Amazon. Not sure if it still works:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

Oh, and if you haven't been to bateau.com, definitley check it out.
Also there's www.amateurboatbuilding.com

Ed.


Thomas Veber wrote:
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now
feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail
boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and
a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in
this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and
make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program
and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program
for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy
and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard,
rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails
will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the
sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages
etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather
do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending
thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas