* Capt. Rob wrote, On 7/24/2007 2:12 PM:
I didn't know CW had an editorial postion on cats. Normally they
just
have articles, like the one in this month's issue describing how much
fun it was.

You just said they didn't have an editorial position, then claimed
they did.

I guess this is another area where you're ignorant. The editorial
position of a magazine can be different from views expressed in
various articles and reviews. Of course, a mag like CW won't say much
bad about any boat!


Tell us when you stop just sailing


That may be one of the saddest comments made by anyone here. I know
you're old, but it's pretty sad when a fellow like you feels that
"just sailing" for the sake of sailing isn't fun. Sorry, I don't know
any one who sails that agrees.

Huh??? You're the one who implied you sail to use various boats, not
to enjoy them. I just agreed with you the when you're ready to start
enjoying, you might try a cat. Perhaps you should reread what you wrote.

A lot more than you use yours!

Even if we used Heart of Gold half as much we'd still be spending more
time aboard than you.

??? I'll spend about 10 weeks onboard this summer. I've already
spent more time on the water this summer than you will, and we're just
getting started.


Little Neck is so close to your slip that you didn't have to
unplug shore power!!!

We didn't sail from my slip or even City Island. I don't own a Santana
30/30. I own a 35s5. Are you old AND confused?

Why would I know where some random boat is from?


Why would I google it? I was studying NACA foils and how they're
used
in sailboats while you were still in diapers!

And yet you claimed the term didn't exist! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

No, I never said that. I said that your comment was meaningless. You
clearly didn't understand what it means or how to use the term
intelligently. Its pretty clear you still don't.


It IS a real term. Of course.

You are soooooo BUSTED!!! BWAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!

And why is that? Everyone knows you're just bluffing and have no idea
what you're talking about!


Here's a hint: tipping is
not necessary to go fast. It is not even desirable. Much of naval
architecture is concerned with minimizing tipping.


Really? Is water also wet? Tell us more! You're starting to sound like
Doug, the King of Keels!

OK, so enlighten us! Tell us what you meant by "foil dynamics" and
how it relates to my comment. Its clear that you know less about
boats than a sunken log, so here's your chance to show us what you
know! You've already been bested by a sunken log once this season,
why don't you go for 2 out of 3?

And yet, my boat is faster than yours on all points of sail!

It's not a monohull and has nothing to do with folks who like to sail
them any more than a tri-foiler does. Cats are ugly and dull and a LOT
of people feel that way and spend big gobbs of money on lovely boats
like Swans, Baltics and Alerions...and even a lowly 35s5!

OK, so you prefer a slow boat. That sounds pretty dull to me.

While its true that mono sales are still bigger than multis, the multi
market is growing a *lot* faster. When I first started cruising the
cat in the Northeast, we were often the first cat people had ever
seen. Now its rare to find even in a small harbor without one or more.


And, I sail it 5 times more than you sail yours!

Is that in Mayfly hours?

You're the one who keep bragging about "3 times a week" and how you're
back home every night. The way you post that "3 times" seems like
maybe 6 hours. When we go out on Thursday we'll do 5 hours to Cape
Ann, then about 8 hours to Cape Elizabeth, maybe 6 hours to Booth Bay,
and so on. By the time we're in Bar Harbor we'll have more sailing in
then you'll do in the summer.


You forget all those years in collegiate racing, then

At your age you'll also be forgetting them quite soon!

I'll already done more sailing than you'll ever do. And frankly,
given your history, I probably have more good years ahead of me than
you do!


....

So should you! You've posted tons of pics and videos, but none of
them show you doing over 6 knots, and most don't even show both sails!

LOL! The 35s5 rarely does less than 6 knots.

Then the limits you're pushing are the lower limits!




Bragging about what other people have done in boats similar to
yours is the true mark of a loser!

Who's bragging? Pointing out that you and the rest of the full time
ASAers here don't sail is not bragging.

No, its lying.

....


So now your complaint is that me boat was designed to go fast!

Yup, because you keep bragging again and again that she does 12 knots.
Who cares. She sits flat on the water and does 12 knots with zero fun
factor.

It too bad you don't know how to sail one. You just keep admitting
you ignorance on this topic.


Again, you should try it sometime. Taking a boat our for an hour
is not "pushing the limits."


BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I wonder if you can say one more dumb thing in a single
post and BAM, you outdo yourself! Last month I was out in a J24 for
about an hour. Winds came up to 40+ knots. Still, I guess we were
waiting for the 61 minute mark to know we were over-driving the boat!

And then you woke up and the bed was wet!!!


Sailing with no specific goal, just looking
for a puff to get a little rush, is not "pushing the limits."

Bwahahahahhahahaha! I love Jeff's silly generalizing!

But you know I'm right, and so does everyone else!


Pushing
the limits is when you're in a race and performing at less than 95%
is essentially a DNF.


Dang, is that in a book somewhere? We thought that pushing the limits
meant sailing a boat beyond her conventional design parameters, but
I'm sure glad you set us all straight!

That's real funny! You have never sailed a boat "beyond her
conventional design parameters" and everyone here knows it! You
haven't even been close!


Ah! So now the problem is that you simply don't like to spend
extended time on boats! That much is pretty obvious!


Good lord! You JUST realized this? I don't like spending extended time
on boats.

Now that's a start. And by "extended" we mean more than about 2 hours.


I have other interests that I'm also pasionate about. Even
aboard my friend's Tayana 48DS (A boat 5 times more comfortable than
yours), 4 days aboard was plenty.

BWAHAHAHAAHA! And you claimed you were going to do a
trans-Atlantic!!! You're the first person I've known who claimed to
be a sailor, but thought 4 days on a luxury boat was enough! I'm
guessing your "friend" thought 4 days with you was also "enough"!


And your boat would not feel like a radiator if it actually had
ventilation.

Hmmmm. I wonder what monohull that Jeff "respects" has as better
ventilation than the 35s5? In stock trim she has 11 ports and hatches,
plus we have 3 powered vents. Of course you can add vents, but we've
never had a problem, except maybe on ultra hot days in a slip where we
simply flip on the AC.

Actually, the Multi/Mono comparison in this months Cruising World
(which you seem to take as gospel) pointed out that the cabins on the
big Beneteau were stuffy, but the cat was airy.

And those little side hatches don't really ventilate the boat, and
counting the little hatch inside the cockpit is truly lame! To
ventilate you need forward facing top hatches, which can scoop in any
air. I have 6 of those, you have what, two?


Good God, I should hope not!


Your wish is granted. Even at 44 I've got more going on than you ever
will and having a blast. I know you'll now make all sort of claims
about slain dragons...hey, go right ahead.

Nope. No need. Its pretty clear that you're an insecure little child.
There is very little in your life for anyone to be envious of.

And yet, you've told us that you can't go out for more than a few
days
because of a chronic illness.


Hmmmm. I'd like to read that post. I have an illness, but it doesn't
effect sailing in any way. Even when I was sick, I still could run,
lift and do everything else.

You posted here that was the reason you couldn't go out for more than
a few days.


You're the one who seems debilitated.

Yep....just got back from trail riding and going swimming in the pond
with Thomas in a while. I'm crippled!

Enjoy it while you can.

Yes, we keep hearing about your plans. You always have plans, but
your achievements add up to less sailing than most of us do in a
month!

Bwaahahahhaaha! Yeah? Who is doing all that sailing while posting here
every day!

During the 19 days we were gone I posted 11 short posts, in 5
sessions, using my Blackberry as a modem. During the same period, you
posted around 150 times.

I claim to daysail and do weekend trips. I post pics and
video. There's no doubt. The rest of you are here ALL OF THE TIME!!!
Who are you trying to kid? I'm in touch via direct e-mail with several
people here and they don't believe you sail anywhere either!

I really don't care much what Ed Gordon thinks.

Your pics could be anywhere, anytime. I've posted pics of my boat
everywhere from Toronto to Maine to Key West. I've even posted aerial
shots of my boat in Vineyard Haven.


Thursday we're leaving for four weeks in Maine. And you're just
jacking off in LIS!

Yup. We like sailing. We're not interested in cruising. Learn to live
with that and you may add a few years to your short-fused life.

I really don't care that you're not interested in cruising; you seem
obsessed with the fact that other people have fun even though they
don't have your "life."


I really don't care how you use your boat.

So why respond to every troll like a pavlovian dog.

Me? You respond to every one of mine!!! I've had you hooked for the
last month!


You're the one who keeps
claiming that only you can have fun because your boat tips more and
any other!


It's called heeling, Jeff. And it's a big part of the dynamic of
sailing for most sailors.

Most sailors??? Certainly not! Most sailors understand that it slows
them down! It only the novices who haven't learned yet what true
performance sailing is about. Like a little child you think its more
fun when its tippy!

Acting as though heeling is not a major fun
factor in sailing is like saying the wind in your hair is not part of
the allure of driving a ragtop. Snap out of it, dude.

Most sailors think Fun is getting the most of of the boat, not sailing
poorly. You're the only person who brags about how much fun they have
sailing poorly.


What, you don't enjoy pushing the limits of your boat in light air?

Depends on how light and how hot. Dead calm conditions where no one
can sail on a 100 degree day is not fun for a sailboat underway. But
please tell us how you've sailed and had fun sailing your boat on
those days!

Dead days are fun also! We just fire up the engines and power off at
9 knots!

Actually, I enjoy racing in very light air days. It takes a lot of
skill and patience, but it can be extremely rewarding. You see, I
enjoy all aspects of sailing, not just certain boats in certain winds,
within 3 miles of my slip.



If you even rounded a mark last it would mean that you're trying.
If
you don't race, you can't talk about "pushing a boat to its limits."


I have raced on a J30 and J24's. It was fun for a while. It's not part
of why I want to sailing.

In other words, you sucked at it and never want to do it again.

You will never understand, probably because
you're not a sailor at heart.

Hey, you're the one who just spent the whole post explaining all the
different ways you don't like to sail! It has to be a "performance"
monohull. It has to be tippy to be fun. The wind can't be too light.
It can't be too strong. Its no fun if the boat was actually
designed to go fast. You can't cruise because you get bored after a
few days. You can't race. You have lots of "plans" that never seem
to happen.

Its pretty clear that your only reason to go out at all is to take a
picture and then run back in and post it!

You carry around a phoney bravado
because you've taken a boat this way and that, adding up the miles as
though they are "better" than those who love sailing on Sunday
afternoons, on lakes and so on.

Nope, I never said any of that; you just have to lie like to claim a
"victory." The truth is I have no problem with your daysailing; as
I've said I've done it many times. You're the one who keeps claiming
that no one else can have any fun because they don't do things your
way. In fact, every month or so you have to post a list of why
everyone else can't be having any fun! You are the most insecure
person I've ever known.


If you raced you might learn how to get up to 95%, and
you'd certainly learn the meaning of terms like "pinching" and "foil
dynamics" and how to use them without embarrassing yourself.


Golly, the only one who got embarassed here was you, busted about 5
times in a single post!

You completely soiled your pants with that exchange! You proved you
don't even know the meaning of "going upwind." You even claimed that
most sailors don't care about sailing upwind, they only care how well
a boat pinches. Not surprising that you still don't understand. Just
today you were claiming that boats sail fastest downwind. Someday you
should try a beam reach!

I guess this is another area where you're ignorant. The editorial
position of a magazine can be different from views expressed in
various articles and reviews.



It can be, or can be the same. The defiition is actually somewhat
vague as is the specific POV of any publication. I suggest you look up
the term and learn a bit before making such an obvious mistake.





Huh??? You're the one who implied you sail to use various boats,
not
to enjoy them.


A lie from Jeff, but let's give him a break. Jeff, please show the
POST where I claimed NOT to enjoy sailing for the sake of sailing.



I just agreed with you the when you're ready to start
enjoying, you might try a cat. Perhaps you should reread what you
wrote.


Already sailed a PDQ 36 and a Gemini. Suzanne also sailed aboard a 60
foot cat years ago in Tobago. Boring, boring and boring.




??? I'll spend about 10 weeks onboard this summer. I've already
spent more time on the water this summer than you will, and we're
just
getting started.


I've been sailing Heart of Gold and other boats since late March,
Jeff. And we'll sailing straight through November. I'm sailing today.
Not only do we spend more time actually sailing that you, but we also
enjoy a fairly large variety of boats.



Why would I know where some random boat is from?



Why would you assume that all boats are from City Island?



No, I never said that. I said that your comment was
meaningless.


Really? Why don't you post the comment and let's have a look!



You
clearly didn't understand what it means or how to use the term
intelligently. Its pretty clear you still don't.


How is it clear? We never spoke about any aspect of foil dynamics,
Jeff. But again, please post ANY part of our technical discussion that
you seem to remember!



And why is that? Everyone knows you're just bluffing and have no
idea
what you're talking about!



Again, post some proof. Where is our discussion about foil
dynamics????? Hmmmm?


OK, so enlighten us! Tell us what you meant by "foil dynamics"
and
how it relates to my comment. Its clear that you know less about
boats than a sunken log


Jeff, you're sooooo silly. Anyone here can pretend to be an expert.
You KNOW that. Whatever I do know...or you...can be easily amplified
by a few minutes of googling. Don't you read Crantz posts? That's just
what you'll claim if I show any knowledge at all, so why bother?
Suffice to say I've owned 4 boats, sailed perhaps a 100 others. I
probably picked up a thing or two in that time.



OK, so you prefer a slow boat. That sounds pretty dull to me.


Right, so what you're saying is that Monohulls that are slower than
cats are dull. I'm glad you said it. You believe that speed,
regardless of ow it's delivered is the end all to fun aboard a boat.
Sadly for you, most of the sailing world enjoying everything from
J22's to 35s5's to Melges and Swans don't agree one bit. That's why
every Cat owner we see is elderly. Jeff.


While its true that mono sales are still bigger than multis, the
multi
market is growing a *lot* faster.


And if you knew ANYTHING at all about the brokerage and builders
market, you'd also know that they sell to a generally older population
that is growing. The worlds biggest builders don't built cats or build
very few. Cats will never outsell monoulls and I wouldn't buy a cat
unless I was too handle a boat like mine.


When I first started cruising the
cat in the Northeast, we were often the first cat people had ever
seen. Now its rare to find even in a small harbor without one or
more.


Bwaahaahahaha! Yeah....they're taking over!!! We have two at our club.
Both are owned by couples in their 60's. I know them and they share my
opinion on Cats, but big powerful rigs are too much for them now.


You're the one who keep bragging about "3 times a week" and how
you're
back home every night.


Yup...actually 4 times last week. Honestly, time spent under sail was
around 20-25 hours. That's a typical week, but some are more and
others less. So I'll let you do the math, Jeff. If I sail 20 hours a
week from end of March to mid november how many hours is that? Quite a
few, Jeff. And I DON'T count time hanging out on a hook or in the
slip. I only count the time when the sails are up and working. But
I'll even be more conservative and say 20 weeks of 20 hours of sailing
and we really do more than that, especially since we've started also
sailing on local lakes. Your 10 weeks aboard one boat does not measure
up.



I'll already done more sailing than you'll ever do.


You know...that could be true or it may not be. You probably won't
live to know for sure. But if it makes you pass away more quietly,
then go right ahead and believe it!



And frankly,
given your history, I probably have more good years ahead of me than
you do!


Now that's just silly. My cholesterol is 166 this year. I weigh 213
lbs today at 6'3 and I ran 3 miles on a trail today, before you even
woke up!

....



Then the limits you're pushing are the lower limits!


Oh...so now I'm pushing limits, but it's the lower ones??? LOL!



No, its lying.



I post exactly what I do and also provide pics and video. I see no
indication that the majority of this group sails at all. So please
provide any indication that I "lie."



It too bad you don't know how to sail one. You just keep
admitting
you ignorance on this topic.


Where is your boat now, Jeff? Too far away for a daysail for me?
Invite me aboard, Jeff. I'll sail your boat right off without a single
instruction and do it fairly well. You can judge for yourself how much
or little I know.




And then you woke up and the bed was wet!!!



Please keep this dialogue clean and unattractive to Ganzy.




But you know I'm right, and so does everyone else!


Everyone on ASA....who don't own cats. Of course if I say that rocks
are hard, ASA says I'm wrong, so it means little.



That's real funny! You have never sailed a boat "beyond her
conventional design parameters" and everyone here knows it! You
haven't even been close!


I'm afraid I have been in such conditions twice, but pushing a rig too
far is something that is done all the time. In fact we did it on our
very 1st sail aboard the 35s5 in Florida.




Now that's a start. And by "extended" we mean more than about 2
hours.



Actually...it's your finish, Jeff. I enjoy day sailing and weekend
trips. That little fact is the beginning and end of any point you
"thought" you had. In spite of this I still spend more time under sail
than you or anyone else here and that's a fact.



BWAHAHAHAAHA! And you claimed you were going to do a
trans-Atlantic!!!


Yup, perhaps in about 7 or 8 years. Suzanne and I have discussed it at
length. So what?


You're the first person I've known who claimed to
be a sailor, but thought 4 days on a luxury boat was enough!


I guess you don't know many sailors or perhaps your definition is all
about exclusion of folks who prefer day sails, lake sailing, racing
and such. I don't make such rules. I figure if a sailor prefers to
sail small lakes that's great. If another only likes long voyages,
then that's also great. The sailor on the lake may be more skilled. I
make no judgements as you do and I don't create "special clubs" or
redifine words to suit my ego. I'm a sailor, Jeff. So are you after a
fashion, but I do sail more than you and all of the posts in the world
can't change the math.


Actually, the Multi/Mono comparison in this months Cruising World
(which you seem to take as gospel) pointed out that the cabins on the
big Beneteau were stuffy, but the cat was airy.



I guess you will always avoid the question at hand. I asked which
MONOHULL is better. Your larger vessel has more room for ports/hatches
and such.


And those little side hatches don't really ventilate the boat,
and
counting the little hatch inside the cockpit is truly lame!

No experience at all from Jeff...as usual. When we were on the hook a
few weeks ago, Suzanne had to close that port because it sucks in air
like crazy when the second aft cabin port is open. In fact we
generally find that opening the single center hatch with one open port
keeps things comfortable. Sorry, Jeff.



Nope. No need. Its pretty clear that you're an insecure little
child.
There is very little in your life for anyone to be envious of.



You're not supposed to be envious, Jeff. That's your problem. You're
supposed to be happy that I have been so fortunate. You need to grow
up a little, even at your advanced age.



You posted here that was the reason you couldn't go out for more
than
a few days.


Nope.



Enjoy it while you can.


Have a look, Jeff...on our own land.....
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...prit/swim2.jpg



During the 19 days we were gone I posted 11 short posts, in 5
sessions, using my Blackberry as a modem.



Uh huh. Got a point?



I really don't care much what Ed Gordon thinks.


Snap out of it. That's NOT Ed Gordon.


Your pics could be anywhere, anytime.



Bwahahahaahaha! Yeah....and careful make up and CGI effects are how I
properly age Thomas in the pics and videos! You're hilarious....but
also sad!



I really don't care that you're not interested in cruising; you
seem
obsessed with the fact that other people have fun even though they
don't have your "life."


Thank god they don't have my life. My time last night with Suzanne was
the stuff of Arabian fantasy....all for me!



Me? You respond to every one of mine!!!



Jeff, knock it off. I've been doing this for years. I start each
thread with a goal of catching as many as I can and this is MY thread.
You didn't start it, nor do you start many at all. It's my posts that
keep this arena functional an my nets full.



t sailors??? Certainly not! Most sailors understand that it
slows
them down!


That's like saying "most drivers" know that their tires touching the
road slows them down, Jeff. You are truly rediculous...and really
silly!



Like a little child you think its more
fun when its tippy!


Yup! I don't know anyone....NO ONE...who doesn't love the feeling of a
monohull taking a set around 12 degrees and taking off. Call us all
children!


Most sailors think Fun is getting the most of of the boat, not
sailing
poorly.


So now heeling is sailing poorly. BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!! Anyone want to
see some Cup videos of poor sailing?


Dead days are fun also! We just fire up the engines and power off
at
9 knots!


No thanks. We're out there to get away from engines as much as
possible.


Actually, I enjoy racing in very light air days. It takes a lot
of
skill and patience, but it can be extremely rewarding.



Snore. Good for you!



In other words, you sucked at it and never want to do it again.


Nope. I was not skipper and sometimes we won. But it was crowded on
the water and limiting. Suzanne has been doing it on Wednesdays. She
enjoys the social aspect, but not the racing itself. "Liking" racing
is not a requirement for a sailor, Jeff...nor is sailing on blue water
or owning a cat. Too late for you to realize this and very sad that
folks like me, who just love to sail, anger you so. I do feel sorry
for you.


Hey, you're the one who just spent the whole post explaining all
the
different ways you don't like to sail!


Yup, just like you prefer cats, no AC, long trips and so on. We all
have our preferences.


Its no fun if the boat was actually
designed to go fast.

That all depends on how it achieves that goal.


You can't cruise because you get bored after a
few days.


I don't love time on the hook. That's not sailing. When I owned a
motorcycle, I always hated getting to where I was going. The ride was
the thing. You own a dull ride and that's the long and short of it.


You have lots of "plans" that never seem
to happen.


Most do, a few haven't yet. ALL will.


Its pretty clear that your only reason to go out at all is to take
a
picture and then run back in and post it!


Yup! I figure actual cost to me is about 44.50 per pic counting cost
of the boat, camera and web account! It's worth it when I snare fish
like this!



The truth is I have no problem with your daysailing; as
I've said I've done it many times.


Why thank you!


You're the one who keeps claiming
that no one else can have any fun because they don't do things your
way.


No, I claim that most of the people in ASA hardly/don't sail at all.
This is a sailing group.



In fact, every month or so you have to post a list of why
everyone else can't be having any fun!

No, I only post that they're not sailing. And they're not.


You are the most insecure
person I've ever known.


I'm 74 and used to own my own tug boat company called Raven Inc. In
1966 I was aboard the Elf when she caught fire off the Jersey Coast
and I was the sole survivor. I'm 33 and I sponsor a Swan 60 sailing
project, but can't sail her myself due to a spinal injury. I'm 44 and
I've owned 4 boats. I currently work for the 2nd largest sailboat
builder in the world as a design consultant on vessels over 10
meters.
Jeff, you have NO IDEA who I am at all. If you met me you'd never
guess that I and Bobsprit are one in the same. I am the Man in Black
here and I fight sailing idiocy and evil as I please.


You proved you
don't even know the meaning of "going upwind." You even claimed that
most sailors don't care about sailing upwind, they only care how well
a boat pinches.


More lies. Never posted any such thing and I challenge Jeff to post a
link to any such comment.


Someday you
should try a beam reach!


I don't drink, but clearly you do!


Enjoy the day. I'm off to do a few hours on a Cat boat (Menger 22).
2nd time aboard and I'm helping the owner with a new sail I got for
him.







RB
35s5
NY