On Jun 9, 2:45 pm, Ed Gordon wrote:
http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p11.htm

Myth#11 Mac26 is not for ocean sailing.

Cheerio,
Ed Gordon

Dude................. quit yapin and go do it. Post a few pictures
when ya get to England. If its so easy to do in a Mac somone with your
obvious skill, experince, and intellignece will have no problems at
all.............

I look forward to you reports of a safe, quick, and relaxing voyage.

I bet you and Skip, and Lydia will have lots of stories to swap.
Bob

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 11:49 AM:

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy was
drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth of
July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Sure we can blame the Mac. Half the boaters out there were probably
drunk and yet only one capsized. And he didn't just capsize it, it
rolled within seconds of leaving the anchorage because he goosed the
throttle by mistake.

While there were 11 people on board, 3 were small children and down
below, so the boat was not grossly overloaded by the standards of
ordinary boats.

My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.

Jeff wrote in
:

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 11:49 AM:

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy
was drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth
of July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a
power boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4
by George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the
case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Sure we can blame the Mac. Half the boaters out there were probably
drunk and yet only one capsized. And he didn't just capsize it, it
rolled within seconds of leaving the anchorage because he goosed the
throttle by mistake.

While there were 11 people on board, 3 were small children and down
below, so the boat was not grossly overloaded by the standards of
ordinary boats.

My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.



Well, then maybe they should sit down and read the owner's manual. What
do you expect? a warning sticker plastered on every part of the boat? No
matter how hard you try to think of how people can screw up people can
always screw up worse than you think they can. If you had a warning that
said don't get drunk and operate this boat, don't put more than six
people in it, and so forth you'd just get ignored. If you don't count
the little kids you end up with eight adults. That's still two too many.

Would you blame an airplane that crashed because it said it was for four
passengers and they crammed eight people in it? Nope. That would be
pilot error. So don't blame the Mac. If you built a boat that was idiot
proof it'd be a square room with rubber walls firmly stuck to the
ground.

--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.freewebs.com/egordon873/index.htm

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 7:06 PM:
Jeff wrote in
....
My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.



Well, then maybe they should sit down and read the owner's manual. What
do you expect? a warning sticker plastered on every part of the boat? No
matter how hard you try to think of how people can screw up people can
always screw up worse than you think they can. If you had a warning that
said don't get drunk and operate this boat, don't put more than six
people in it, and so forth you'd just get ignored. If you don't count
the little kids you end up with eight adults. That's still two too many.

You miss the important issue here. There are very few other boats
that would have capsized in this situation. If this had been a keel
boat, or if the ballast tank were filled, or if it didn't have a 50hp
engine, there would not have been a problem.



Would you blame an airplane that crashed because it said it was for four
passengers and they crammed eight people in it?

The people were not "crammed" onto the Mac. I'm sure that they felt
there was plenty of room. A Rhodes 19 would be "crammed," but not a
16 footer.

Nope. That would be
pilot error. So don't blame the Mac. If you built a boat that was idiot
proof it'd be a square room with rubber walls firmly stuck to the
ground.

Sorry. I prefer boats that do not suddenly roll over when there is no
wind or waves.

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 12:08 PM:
Jeff wrote in
:

It was that web site that made me lose all respect for certain Mac
owners. It is, like some Mac proponents, a stream of nautical
gibberish. There's enough nautical nonsense to fill a pineapple under
the sea.

That's because you admitted you hate Macs, man!!!

Where did I "admit" that? I love innovative boats. I just dislike
foolish claims by ignorant novices.

....
That makes sense - the boat dances at anchor and therefore must be
just like a multihull.

He's talking about the speed not the kind of hull. I think he's thinking
about shallow draft like most catamarans are shallow draft so they dance
around at anchor because they don't have a big heavy deep keel to keep
them in one place. It makes sense to me.

Sorry, boats "dance" because of their windage relative to the lateral
resistance. Boat with high freeboard (like a Mac) or a rig forward
(Nonsuch or Freedom) or forward coachroof (many cruising cats) dance.
Shallow draft is usually not the significant factor.



In another place he asserts a tacking angle of 64 degrees, even though
most Mac owners report the expected 95 degrees.

You gotta know how to sail them, man. 64 degrees is too low and 95
degrees is dreaming. Even the Americas cup boats can't do 95% unless the
wind is maybe blowing six or seven mph. I used to tack about 75 or 80
degrees with mind in moderate breezes. In heaver winds it might be low
around 60 because of the slippage because of the short keel that doesn't
bite that great.

As I said, I don't like foolish claims by ignorant novices.


Macs can do 20. 12-15 is about half throttle, man. And the article said
there are lots of Macs in England and some of them were probily saiked
there.

Macs can do 20 with some engines in idealized conditions. Loaded with
cruising gear, fuel, ballast tank full, and fighting a minimal ocean
chop, 15 is a more realistic upper limit. In fact, while the Mac
boards have some people claiming extreme speeds, they also have a lot
of folks that admit they have never been above 12 knots.



A telling thing about some of the ventures you mention is that they
are in groups, not alone. For whatever reason, they didn't want to be
alone out there.

Even you adimitted Mac owners are a friendly group of people who enjoy
some company of fellow enthusiasts. Having the same boat makes it easier
to stay together.

ALL boaters are friendly, and most will sail in company. However, it
seems that Macs can only do a few miles offshore if its a "Coordinated
Event."



And, for all the claims, I've never actually seen a Mac outside of
protected waters, nor have I ever seen one at a "cruisers' anchorage."


Well, I guess that means it NEVER happens. You sail everwhere all the
time and know about what all the boats in the world are doing.

Nope. But you're the one claiming that Macs sail more than "keel
boats" and the don't mind going out in the ocean. Since I've done
about 12000 miles cruising since the 26X came out, you would think I
might see one on occasion.

At my marina there are two in slips nearby. Last summer I saw each go
out once. At my previous marina there was once that I saw out once in
two years.


You da
man! I bet it burns you up when a Mac comes sailing by your slow heavy
keel boat.

First of all, I don't have a keel boat. And I can assure you that its
much faster than a Mac on all points of sail.

But, you shouldn't cop an attitude because maybe your boat is
slower and not as versatil but it might have at least one good point. Ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! What kinda boat do you have anyway?
Probably a cheap Hunter or something like that.

A PDQ 36 catamaran. More boat than you can even dream of.

"Ed Gordon" wrote in

The guy was dumb and drunk when he bought the Mac!!!

that's no excuse.

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:31:54 +1200, Duncan McC (NZ)
wrote:

My own comments on a Mac 26X - which I tried out (a new one) two years
ago.

Is it a sailing boat or a speedboat? My biggest gripe, for a brand new
boat, is that it is beaten on the water (sailing) by boats that are 25
years old (eg Farr 7.5, Noelex 25). (I bought a Farr 7.5 in the end,
BTW). I was pleasantly surprised by it's pointing ability, but again
much older boats out point it (as probably expected given it's 'cross
nature' design).

I couldn't find any Farr 7.5's for sale in the U.S., but maybe they
come on market sometimes. Do they still make them? Looks like
a nice boat. Probably not many made the trip to the U.S.

Naa, haven't made 'em for years.

That said there are several trailer sailors still made in Australia.


There was a long thread in the Mac forum where an Aussie
went through contortions having a Mac 26X shipped there.
Shipping container prices, fumigation, trailer rules/modifications,
etc. Ended costing him quite a bit. I couldn't quite figure why he
would do it.
Then another Aussie mentioned the outrageous price asked for the Mac
there (60k AUS for the X, 70k AUS for the M) and said that despite his
costs he will come out ahead should he decide to sell it off. He is
himself arranging an import.

Sorry, it was the latest model I went out in - the M model it must be.
They are about $75K (NZD) here - which is good value for a brand new
boat I think. (Actually with the high exchange rate, I'd expect to see
a much lower price, but I don't have it at hand).

The X and M are almost identical, with the M being the newer version.
A new M in the U.S. will cost maybe 30-34K U.S. tricked out with a
4-stroke 50HP and other common add-ons. I think the bare boat itself
with trailer and just a mainsail is 20-24K U.S.
Apparently trade between the U.S. and Oz/NZ is well restricted between
distance and regs. One of my sons recently sold his Chicago based
Bayliner powerboat for an attractive price (he wanted a quick sale) to
an Aussie working in Indiana. The fellow told my son he would be
sending the boat off for sale in Australia and pocket 10k U.S. on the
deal.
All very strange. Another of my sons now resides in Sydney and tells
me there are similar price anomalies with some U.S. cars, where older
models not given a second look here (Ford Taurus, eg) sell for
seemingly large sums in Australia. If I had more energy I might look
into U.S./Oz import/export business.

The price is good, and the cabin is spacious in feel. I like that.

Pretty scary you would say the price is good for a Mac 26 in Oz/NZ,
given what I've heard. Were you looking there or in the U.S.?
Agree on the Mac 26 cabin. The spartan nature gives it a less
claustrophobic feel than similar sized boats. But some will see that
lack of cabinetry as inadequate stowage.

Indeed the word 'spartan' came to mind - and indeed there is not a lot
of locker space as a result - probably not *that* bad for a weekend or
even a week away - at least everything is at hand (don't have to rumage
around lockers - as I do on my boat).

--
Duncan

In article , egordon873
@aol.com says...
Duncan McC (NZ) wrote in
. nz:

In article ,
egordon873 @aol.com says...
http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p11.htm

Myth#11 Mac26 is not for ocean sailing. Go ahead, click the link and
see just how good and seaworthy a professional captain thinks the Mac
really is. Dare you. Jeff expecially.

Wow gee whiz.

I didn't read all the guff - what a god awful website.

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy was
drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth of
July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Agreed it was the skipper's fault - however, *when* do you have the
water ballast in?

Or better... when do you operate with no water ballast in?

IMO, that's a curly question - and best answered (unlike the info
online) - "all the time the boat is in the water".

It just isn't safe otherwise.

snip

Overall I think the Mac retains it's - it's neither this, and it's
neither that - label, sorry.

It's what you make of it. If you want it to be a saiboat it's a pretty
fast and safe sailboat. If you want a motorboat it's a pretty fast and
safe motor boat. It's the best of both worlds. Everybody who doesn't
know anything complains about the rudders. They say they are too lightly
built. They are too dumb to remember they are slender because they also
are a power boat rudders that have to be able to go throught the water
way faster than a heavy keelboat rudder has to. They are tuffer than you
think since they hold up going twenty or more mph. The rigging is light
so it's easier to put the mast up and down. It's a trailerable boat
remember. You can't make the mast and wiring too big or it'll be too
heavy to put it up. It's designed to be light and strong and is plenty
strong for the sails you get with it.

I would disagree and say it's not a very fast sailboat, and not a very
fast motorboat (people don't *really* waterski behind them do they!!!)

So it doesn't fit into either world.

I think the rigging on say an F7.5 or a Noelex 25 is about right - I
think the Mac is too light (but admit I've read of few rigging
failures).

I certainly have no problem at all steppping my mast, even by myself
(bit tricky, but I can do it - it's not the weight that's the problem,
it's hanging onto the lines and holding the mast up that's the tricky
bit)).

I'd guess the standing rigging is 4mm SS...

http://hitime.no-ip.info

What is the Macs?

I also thought (and it could just be the particular setup) that the
rigging on the Mac I went out on was set *way* too light - I have the
F75 set to a sorta dull piano twang tension (at a guess, twice as taut
as the Mac I went out on).

--
Duncan

In article ,
says...
* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 11:49 AM:

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy was
drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth of
July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Sure we can blame the Mac. Half the boaters out there were probably
drunk and yet only one capsized. And he didn't just capsize it, it
rolled within seconds of leaving the anchorage because he goosed the
throttle by mistake.

While there were 11 people on board, 3 were small children and down
below, so the boat was not grossly overloaded by the standards of
ordinary boats.

My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.

Absolutely - so really the instructions should be *always* operate the
boat with the ballast in place (when on the water).

--
Duncan

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:01:24 +1200, Duncan McC (NZ)
wrote:

I think the rigging on say an F7.5 or a Noelex 25 is about right - I
think the Mac is too light (but admit I've read of few rigging
failures).

We have a bunch of them around here in SW FL. When I see them
underway they are almost always under power in protected water. The
ability to sail seems to be primarily an illusion and marketing
gimmick. Once you get out into open water here with the wind blowing
20+, we sometimes get beat up a bit even on a 49 ft, 50,000 lb
trawler. Going out in the Gulf Stream on a windy day in a lightly
ballasted 26 footer of any type would be comparable to volunteering
for the submarine service.