On Mar 12, 3:45 pm,
"Jewel" wrote:
Anyone tell me how a vessel equipped with lanteen sails goes about
without dropping its sail and resetting it on the other side.

"Frogwatch" wrote:
You tack just as you would in any other sailboat. Both spars
of the sail (boom and gaff) are one side of the mast on either tack.

If you 're thinking Sunfish, yes. This is a modern rig for recreation,
and very different from the old-timey working vessels lateen rigs.


Phantman wrote:
I can only add, there can be a slight difference in the way the boat
sails (starboard vs port tack) due to the lump (or lack thereof)
caused by the mast against (or not) the sail. The difference on a
Sunfish, for example, is hardly noticable and of no concern unless
you're seriously into racing.

Even then, it's of no consequence because you're going to be racing
other Sunfish, or lese under a handicap that takes the rig into
account.

A long time ago I raced Sunfish pretty seriously, and tried the gaff
on one side and then the other. So did a LOT of other people. None
noticed any difference... a far greater difference is in where the
halyard & gooseneck are secured, and in how flat you hold the boat..


Phantman wrote:
The original Lateen rigs, of a couple thousand years ago, DID drop
their sails to tack. Thence came the origination of the term "Chinese
firedrill" ;-)

(except I think it was Arab pirates that invented it)


Why pirates & not honest traders?

Anyway, the lateen was devloped along the Med coast, possibly by the
Phoenicians. It is notably closer-winded than the square sail,
especially with ancient technology & materials. It is a sail for heavy
cargo ships which do not want to carry a lot of oarsmen to get to
windward... rowing galleys always carried square sails becuase they
would only sail downwind & in fair weather. In ancient/classic times,
the lateen was always boomless. A few classic lateens were rigged to
dip the gaff, ie swing it vertical and then around to set on the new
leeward side. Most of the ones that did this were obligated to gybe
instead of tack when doing so.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Phantman wrote:
The original Lateen rigs, of a couple thousand years ago, DID drop
their sails to tack.
snip
(except I think it was Arab pirates that invented it)

dougking888 wrote:
Why pirates & not honest traders?

Maybe they pirated the idea from the honest traders? Anyhow, the
pirates made such good use of it, the honest traders were forced to
change their shipping strategy to numerous smaller ships and shipments
rather than large ones... to spread the risk.

Anyway, the lateen was devloped along the Med coast, possibly by the
Phoenicians.

Seems to me they'd definitely have the incentive. That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it, and
later developed by Byzantines and Arabs. I guess it depends on who's
history you believe. -shrug- Personally, I don't remember. Happened
before I was born. Anyhow, whoever invented it, changed the nature of
sailing and international commerce from then on.

Rick

Why pirates & not honest traders?

Phantman wrote:
Maybe they pirated the idea from the honest traders? Anyhow, the
pirates made such good use of it, the honest traders were forced to
change their shipping strategy to numerous smaller ships and shipments
rather than large ones... to spread the risk.


True, at some points. Piracy has followed cycles (just like most
economic activity) and there were certainly periods in antiquity when
pirates were a very strong factor in shipping. Julius Ceasar was
captured and held for ransom by pirates in his early days.


Anyway, the lateen was devloped along the Med coast, possibly by the
Phoenicians.

Seems to me they'd definitely have the incentive. That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it, and
later developed by Byzantines and Arabs. I guess it depends on who's
history you believe.

I'm not going to jump into a debate that maritime historians have
argued for decades (possibly centuries). But at this point, we have a
lot of physical remains of ships from antiquity, and find different
structures (including mast steps & partners) that could have supported
a fore-n-aft rig... and others that definitely could not have. For
example, the Egyptians did a lot of coastal trading about the eastern
Med but apparently did not use the lateen until long after other
people had proven it's worth. Personally my vote is for either the
Phoenicians or the Minoans, both of whom had extensive sea trade and
were technological innovators. The Romans were great at copying other
people's inventions, but were not really a nation of inventors &
tinkerers.

-shrug- Personally, I don't remember.

Hah!
If you were an *old* old salt, you'd have been there!

... Anyhow, whoever invented it, changed the nature of
sailing and international commerce from then on.


Agreed. Sailing to windward was in invention ranking right up there
with the wheel IMHO... and more important for many centuries, in terms
of tonnage carried.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first
'invasion' of Britain but first used to kick Gaul arse on the French/
Spanish Coast. It seems the technique was to load up the boats with
soldiers, wait for a flat calm then row about your opponent's (poorly
manned) stationary ships dealing with them one by one.

The Romans knew damn all about boats and damn all about seamanship
outside of the Med. Apparently they just copied their boats from the
Greeks, and added oars. Great example of fresh thinking, and coming up
with your own solution based on you strengths. Apparently there's no
evidence they were manned by slaves.

In article .com,
toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

Not even nearly. Try the Greeks in the ~700-800 BCE era for two-tier
galleys (/probably/ the Ionian city-states). Triremes (three tiers) were
introduced (by Samos?) somewhere around or before 600 BCE and were the
most common "capital ships" until the Hellenistic period, after the
break-up of Alexander the Great's empire - the successor states then
began putting more than one man on an oar, leading eventually to galleys
with 20 men diposed on three vertically-tiered oars (Ptolemy IV went as
far as a catamaran galley with two "twentys" fastened together. A big, big
ship with plenty of oar power. Probably a brute to handle under sail,
though.

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone - galleys of the Imperial period were small biremes
(Liburnians - two-deck galleys) and a few triremes - back to the Greek
ships of nearly 500 years before, in size at least.

http://www.amazon.com/Ships-Seamansh.../dp/0801851300

is probably the best general reference on the subject.

The Romans knew damn all about boats and damn all about seamanship
outside of the Med. Apparently they just copied their boats from the
Greeks, and added oars. Great example of fresh thinking, and coming up

Copied more from Carthegian designs than Greek - Greek ships were
still much bigger than the Roman or Cartheginian ships of that period.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

On 13 Mar, 14:01, (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
In article .com,

toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

Not even nearly. Try the Greeks in the ~700-800 BCE era for two-tier
galleys (/probably/ the Ionian city-states). Triremes (three tiers) were
introduced (by Samos?) somewhere around or before 600 BCE and were the
most common "capital ships" until the Hellenistic period, after the
break-up of Alexander the Great's empire - the successor states then
began putting more than one man on an oar, leading eventually to galleys
with 20 men diposed on three vertically-tiered oars (Ptolemy IV went as
far as a catamaran galley with two "twentys" fastened together. A big, big
ship with plenty of oar power. Probably a brute to handle under sail,
though.

Probably my memory at fault.

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone -

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The same 3 tier ships were used
to put down Gaulish sailors by Claudius in preperation for his
invasion of Britain and that was well after Actium. 3 tier ships were
part of the equipment produced to invade Britain, IIRC before then the
Romans had no interest in seafaring outside of the Med. Ergo,
something designed especially for the invasion of Britain could not
have been obselete at the time of the invasion of Britain. (I think.)

In article . com,
toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 14:01, (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
In article .com,

toad wrote:

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone -

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The same 3 tier ships were used
to put down Gaulish sailors by Claudius in preperation for his
invasion of Britain and that was well after Actium. 3 tier ships were

Small triremes were (IIRC) used, though by AD 43 Gaullish resistance was
well-pacified (heck, by AD 43 I think Claudius had got the Senate to
accept Gauls as Senators... - or was that post-invasion once he had some
prestige to use). This may have been to do with the invasion fleet (like
the rest of the invasion force) having been assembled by Caligula, who
was a sucker for things which looked impressive.

Julius certainly used Triremes (and, I think, a few "fours" and "fives" -
two- and three- level ships with more than one man per oar) against the
Veneti fleet (of large, powerful sailing ships; not dissimilar so far as
can be told from the early-medieavel "Hulk") - the battles you're
describing sound more like those of the 50s BC than 43 AD. Julius' raids
were, of course, before Actium.

part of the equipment produced to invade Britain, IIRC before then the
Romans had no interest in seafaring outside of the Med. Ergo,
something designed especially for the invasion of Britain could not
have been obselete at the time of the invasion of Britain. (I think.)

It's possible that Caligula "re-invented" the Trireme for this. It's
amazing what you can claim when you're a God..

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.

While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Andy

On 13 Mar, 19:39, Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.

While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Clue: It wasn't misread as Boadicea from an English language text.

The current English language spelling is as I wrote it. (http://
tinyurl.com/2rp6q2) Of course that's academic. Nobody knows if she
really existed. If she existed, nobody knows if she was really leader
of the rebellion or a smaller player. Nobody knows if Boudica was a
name or a title. Nobody knows how the name or title was spelt or what
it really meant. (Boudica probably translates as Victorious but nobody
knows.) Spellings of the name of the Iceni warrior Queen run into
dozens. Some completely unrecognizable as Boudica, some pretty
similar. Voudica is a similar one for instance.

In short, you can, with some credibility, spell the name/title of the
Iceni warrior Queen any way you wish. What you can't do with any
credibility is tell someone else how they should spell it.

toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 19:39, Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.
While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Clue: It wasn't misread as Boadicea from an English language text.

The current English language spelling is as I wrote it. (http://
tinyurl.com/2rp6q2) Of course that's academic. Nobody knows if she
really existed. If she existed, nobody knows if she was really leader
of the rebellion or a smaller player. Nobody knows if Boudica was a
name or a title. Nobody knows how the name or title was spelt or what
it really meant. (Boudica probably translates as Victorious but nobody
knows.) Spellings of the name of the Iceni warrior Queen run into
dozens. Some completely unrecognizable as Boudica, some pretty
similar. Voudica is a similar one for instance.

In short, you can, with some credibility, spell the name/title of the
Iceni warrior Queen any way you wish. What you can't do with any
credibility is tell someone else how they should spell it.


Blimey! I'm outgunned!

I admit I haven't read the original sources. My understanding was that
Boadicea came out of a misreading of some 19th century academics
handwriting. This could easily be an urban legend - certainly Wikipedia
disagrees with me on that (and on the spelling...)

BTW Google hits count:
Boudicca 1,080,000
Boudica 260,000
Boadicea 324,000

which tends to say that "current English" is as I have it, even though
I'm wrong.

Still, this is Atrebates country, we wouldn't know about them Iceni lot...

Andy