"Popeye" wrote in message

Obviously Oz thinks for himself and tests his moral standards against a
real, external world. If you believe that morals come from God and are
absolute then you are applying no standard to judge if they are correct or
true. You simply accept them on faith. Since you are a doctor, where do
you draw your distinctions between science and religious dogma? Who wrote
the version of the Bible you cling to? Who were the religious leaders that
set the doctrine you have such faith in? How can you have faith in the
words and writings of middlemen in the business of religion? Did God
speak directly to them or to you? One does not need religion or government
to have a consistent set of morals in which all live together in peace and
harmony. If all the Muslims and Right wing religious wackos were atheists
instead the world would be a better place.

That was a nice speech, Popeye, but completely irrelevant. You have no idea
about my beliefs w/r/t religion. I've never discussed them and don't intend
to do so. My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was imposed
upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of pre-Christian
Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to the Christian
movements, unless you happen to believe that raping, pillaging, and homicide
are moral activities. Religion is not without value.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message


My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was imposed
upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of pre-Christian
Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to the Christian
movements, unless you happen to believe that raping, pillaging, and homicide
are moral activities.

Max



Aristotle is pre-Christian isn't he?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/

But where does Christianity come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influen...n_Christianity

Did you catch the part of where the current concept of God as
omnipotent and all good came from?

If anything, the rise of Christianity led to the Dark Ages - a period of
raping, pillaging and homicide. It was the rise of secularism that led
to the Enlightenment.

Popeye

"Popeye" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message


My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was
imposed upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of
pre-Christian Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to
the Christian movements, unless you happen to believe that raping,
pillaging, and homicide are moral activities.

Max

Aristotle is pre-Christian isn't he?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/

But where does Christianity come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influen...n_Christianity

Did you catch the part of where the current concept of God as omnipotent
and all good came from?

If anything, the rise of Christianity led to the Dark Ages - a period of
raping, pillaging and homicide. It was the rise of secularism that led to
the Enlightenment.

Revisionist history, Popeye. But why argue this point with you--your mind
is made up. Funny, however, that no one ever heard much about this point of
view until the so-called "religious right" rose to power and influence in
the USA. Politics and religion seem to be inseparable of late.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message

My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was
imposed upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of
pre-Christian Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to
the Christian movements, unless you happen to believe that raping,
pillaging, and homicide are moral activities.
Max
Aristotle is pre-Christian isn't he?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/

But where does Christianity come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influen...n_Christianity

Did you catch the part of where the current concept of God as omnipotent
and all good came from?

If anything, the rise of Christianity led to the Dark Ages - a period of
raping, pillaging and homicide. It was the rise of secularism that led to
the Enlightenment.

Revisionist history, Popeye. But why argue this point with you--your mind
is made up. Funny, however, that no one ever heard much about this point of
view until the so-called "religious right" rose to power and influence in
the USA. Politics and religion seem to be inseparable of late.

Max



You cannot refute Aristotle's writings or his influence upon
Christianity. You can't refute his writings on morality predate
Christianity by hundreds of years.

Now you claim my assertion that Christianity led to the Dark Ages is
very recent revisionist history. Not so, but here is something recent:

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/...f-theology.asp

Ever notice that virtually all artwork in the Dark Ages is religiously
themed?

Urban centers were controlled by cardinals?

Kings answered to Rome?

Almost all wars were religious based?

Literacy was the dominion of the church?

Science had to comply with religious dogma?

Christianity did not bring morality to the Dark Ages. The Magna Charta
was signed in 1215.

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian
of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that
the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a
pagan act and therefore vile." Worthy of sainthood?

Now why were they referred to as the "Dark Ages"?

Christianity flourished and rose during the Dark Ages. The human
condition declined.


Further along the timeline, why did all those Christians people suffer
great risk and flock to America? Did the Mayflower arrive on a sight
seeing tour? A good number of people left Europe to escape Christianity.

Northern Ireland - there are your good Christians! Moral and no pillaging!

Massachusetts burning witches and outlawing Christmas - there are your
good Christians!

Tammy Faye, Pat Robertson, all the TV stars - good Christians!

Rampant homosexuals and pedophiles in the Catholic Church - known
behaviors for decades - good Christians!

Morality exists independent of Christianity. Practitioners of
Christianity have tried to falsely claim a monopoly on morality.

Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose.
Religion applied to groups leads to intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

Popeye

"Popeye" wrote
Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose. Religion applied to groups leads to
intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

"Thou shall not put any other Gods before me." --- God.
Organized religion often puts itself before God. That's where it goes wrong...
But, what's another word for organized religion? Organized people! People putting
themselves before God. False, deceiving, arrogant and corrupt people. God knows
them. They will get their just due...

Cheers,
Ellen

Cheers,
Ellen

"Thou shall not put any other Gods before me." --- God.

There is only one God whether you call Him/Her?It God, Shiva, Allah,
Jehovah, or Jimmy Crack Corn....we just all see GGod differently....

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Organized people! People putting
themselves before God. False, deceiving, arrogant and corrupt people. God
knows
them. They will get their just due...

Not if they see their end coming and get the words out quickly enough,
according to you...

"Edgar" wrote
Not if they see their end coming and get the words out quickly enough,
according to you...


Not quite, Edgar. Just mouthing some words means nothing. You've got to be sincere
about it, too.

Cheers,
Ellen

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:11:30 -0500, Popeye wrote
(in article ):

Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message

My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was
imposed upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of
pre-Christian Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to
the Christian movements, unless you happen to believe that raping,
pillaging, and homicide are moral activities.
Max
Aristotle is pre-Christian isn't he?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/

But where does Christianity come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influen..._on_Christiani
ty

Did you catch the part of where the current concept of God as omnipotent
and all good came from?

If anything, the rise of Christianity led to the Dark Ages - a period of
raping, pillaging and homicide. It was the rise of secularism that led to
the Enlightenment.

Revisionist history, Popeye. But why argue this point with you--your mind
is made up. Funny, however, that no one ever heard much about this point
of
view until the so-called "religious right" rose to power and influence in
the USA. Politics and religion seem to be inseparable of late.

Max



You cannot refute Aristotle's writings or his influence upon
Christianity. You can't refute his writings on morality predate
Christianity by hundreds of years.

Now you claim my assertion that Christianity led to the Dark Ages is
very recent revisionist history. Not so, but here is something recent:


http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/...er/tragedy-of-
theology.asp

Ever notice that virtually all artwork in the Dark Ages is religiously
themed?

Urban centers were controlled by cardinals?

Kings answered to Rome?

Almost all wars were religious based?

Literacy was the dominion of the church?

Science had to comply with religious dogma?

Christianity did not bring morality to the Dark Ages. The Magna Charta
was signed in 1215.

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian
of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that
the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a
pagan act and therefore vile." Worthy of sainthood?

Now why were they referred to as the "Dark Ages"?

Christianity flourished and rose during the Dark Ages. The human
condition declined.


Further along the timeline, why did all those Christians people suffer
great risk and flock to America? Did the Mayflower arrive on a sight
seeing tour? A good number of people left Europe to escape Christianity.

Northern Ireland - there are your good Christians! Moral and no pillaging!

Massachusetts burning witches and outlawing Christmas - there are your
good Christians!

Tammy Faye, Pat Robertson, all the TV stars - good Christians!

Rampant homosexuals and pedophiles in the Catholic Church - known
behaviors for decades - good Christians!

Morality exists independent of Christianity. Practitioners of
Christianity have tried to falsely claim a monopoly on morality.

Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose.
Religion applied to groups leads to intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

Popeye












HOY HOY

--
Mundo, The Captain who is a bully and an ass

"Popeye" wrote in message
...

much meaningless drivel snipped

Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose.
Religion applied to groups leads to intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

You can cite exceptions to virtually any rule all day long, Pop. There will
always be exceptions to a general rule, including the moral foundations
wrought by Christianity. Pedophilic priests, avaricious TV preachers, the
Salem witch trials, etc. But they represent a tiny fraction of the total
influence of "modern" Roman Catholicism and the protestant factions. They
do not refute the essential fundamental influence of western religions upon
morality. Aristotle was essentially a moral man adrift in a sea of
immorality. He, too, was an exception. There will always be exceptions,
and those whose arguments fall flat will always cite them as *evidence*
supporting their unfounded claims.

Max