"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
The fact Saddam was a totalitarian dictator and that the freedom and
liberty of Iraqis are voided by his continued
dictatorship seems to have escaped the supposed moral concerns of the
French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, and Vatican.

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

1) 12 years of continued torture, rape, murder, and totalitar-
ianism by Saddam and Saddam's cronies against the
people of Iraq,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

2) Saddam's use of biochemical weapons against the Kurds
and Iranians,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

3) Saddam's starvation of groups out of favor with the ruling
regime (Marsh Arabs),

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

4) Saddam's construction of mosques and palaces of enormous
opulence as his people suffered,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

5) Saddam's continued development of weapons of mass destruc-
tion,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

6) Saddam's alliances with and assistance to likeminded terrorist
entities,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

7) Saddam's refusal to cooperate and pro-actively assist the inspec-
tors in a genuine effort to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction,

Saddam's posturing was a miscalculation, but it wouldn't have mattered.
Bushco was going to invade no matter what.

8) Saddam's treating his commitments to disarm as burdens to be
avoided rather than as obligations to be fulfilled (disarmament
as a game, rather than as a goal),

So what? He didn't have anything to disarm.

9) Saddam's financial support of Palestinian suicider-mass murder-
er organizations in a public display of hatred for human life,

Along with Iran and Syria.

10) Saddam's past atrocities committed against the peoples of
Kuwait and Israel and Iran,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

11) Saddam's past efforts to develop nuclear weapons (only
stopped due to Israeli bombing of a nuclear reactor and,
later on, the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait and the surprising
discovery, thereafter, that Iraq was within two years of devel-
oping nuclear weapons),

Key phrase, "past efforts." Iraq was no where near having them or even
seriously contemplating such a program.

12) freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people, a people who have
been bullied and murdered into submission to totalitarianism,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

13) defense of the United States, a country vulnerable to attacks
from mass murdering Islamist terrorists who could easily find
succor and WMD from an American-hating tyrant,

Bzzzt. Saddam hated and feared Islamic terrorists and never cooperated with
them.

14) prevention of the Saddam-Islamist-terrorist goal of a united
Arabia confronting the west (Saddam's goal was a united Arabia
led by Saddam -- Islamists' goal, worldwide conquest led
by a strong leader and the strongest leader in Arabia was
Saddam),

Complete fabrication on the part of Bushco.

15) reducing the likelihood that Iran will develop nukes by removing
Iran's feeling it must do so to protect against its arch enemy,
Saddam,

Try picking up a newspaper... that's exactly what they're doing, NOW. Stupid
they're not.

16) increasing pressure on Saudi Arabia to deal with the terrorist
elements which are widespread in its midst due to Wahabism,

By invading Iraq? What kind of delusion is this?

17) the historical record which clearly demonstrates that pacifism-
appeasement-diplomacy are inept when confronting totalitarian-
ism led by a belligerent and powerful foe -- reference the Treaty
of Versailles and its lack of enforcement by France and Great
Britain as Hitler violated its tenets, re-armed, re-militarized the
Rhineland, and (unopposed until it was too late) set out to con-
quer most of Europe and Russia, allied with Japan in its effort
to dominate the Far East (an effort which led to the attack on
the U.S. at Pearl Harbor), -and- committed the systematic mass
murder of the handicapped, Jews, homosexual men, and any-
one else opposed to Hitler's tyranny.

Nothing to do with Saddam or his capabilities.




References:


- - -


Is he at war?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../synopsis.html

Excerpt: ... In the 10 years since the Gulf War ended,
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has said that he has
always considered himself at war with America. And
during that time, the U.S. has always considered him
a threat. ...


- - -


Motive:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/mylr...

Excerpt: ... Saddam's view of the utility of violence is
entirely different than ours. ... Saddam sees violence as
something that can achieve his goals. He sees a utility in
violence. In addition, Saddam seeks revenge against the
United States, to do to us what we have done to Iraq. ...


- - -


Primary goal/character (1 of 2):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...terviews/aburi...

Excerpt: ... Saddam Hussein thinks he talks to god. He has
a message--he has to lead Iraq, make it a model for the Arab
countries and then attract the rest of the Arab countries and
become the sole Arab leader of modern times.


... There is no stopping the man. He always has things in
focus. He never misses a beat. In terms of what the country's
all about, and in terms of where his country fits in the whole
world. ...


- - -


Primary goal/character (2 of 2):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/hamz...

Excerpt: ... Saddam is very vengeful, and Saddam believes
in getting back and attacking. ...


- - -


Saddam and weapons of mass destruction - differing
views of Arabs and Iraqis, generally speaking:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...terviews/aburi...

Excerpt: ... I don't think there was any Arab in the seventies
who did not want Saddam Hussein to have an atomic weapon.
They wanted him to have military parity. Israel had atomic
weapons. The Arabs wanted an Arab country to have atomic
weapons. Iraq was the head of the pack and therefore all
Arabs supported Saddam Hussein. ... I don't think there are
many Arabs at this moment in time ... who do not want Sad-
dam Hussein to have an atomic weapon now.


... there is a division between the vision of Saddam Hussein
that the Iraqis have and the vision of Saddam Hussein the
rest of the Arabs have. To the rest of the Arabs, he is the
man standing up to West. To the Iraqis, he is the man who
dragged us into this state of misery. Unwillingly. ...


- - -


Weapons of Mass Destruction:
Nuclear / Biological / Chemical:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...c/arsenal.html

Excerpt: ... In summary, the International Atomic Energy
Agency (IAEA) report says that following the August 1990
invasion of Kuwait, Iraq launched a "crash program" to
develop a nuclear weapon quickly by extracting weapons
grade material from safe-guarded research reactor fuel.
This project, if it had continued uninterrupted by the war,
might have succeeded in producing a deliverable weapon
by the end of 1992.


... In its 1999 final report to the U.N. Security Council,
UNSCOM noted that Iraq's biological warfare program was
"among the most secretive of its programs of weapons of
mass destruction."


- - -


Inspections a Cure-All?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/hamz...

Excerpt: ... The United Nations inspectors had a very mis-
guided opinion about what is disarmament. ... They thought
if you have something, I take it away from you, and you are
disarmed. Despite the knowledge you have, the expertise
you gained through the years, your contacts that could re-
purchase parts for you and put the thing back together. They
discounted all this. If you have a piece of equipment, they
take it away, and you are disarmed.


This is simplistic. They are not naïve; I talked to them. I talked
to many of the inspectors. We had some kind of give and take
in this. But they were restricted. ...


For example, on the nuclear ... the critical parts, that Iraq
could not replace easily, we did not tell about -- for example,
the molds that you make explosives with, the machines that
you make explosives with. Nobody is going to sell you these
anymore. Very difficult. So Iraq did not give these up. Not a
single explosive was given to the inspectors for the nuclear
weapon program. Not a single mold, not a single machine. ...


- - -


If Saddam Gets Nukes, What Will Happen?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/hamz...

Excerpt: ... We are talking about now the future of the region.


Now, Saddam gets nuclear weapons, and he has already the
full range of the chemical and most of the range of the bio-
logical probably. ... The expertise are there, all the scientists
are there, and he has oil money, to a degree, not as much as
before. So what you are getting is a highly weaponized state
with a huge terror organ -- the government itself is a terror
organ, and several organizations that could be satellites to it,
including Al Qaeda. ...


A nuclear bomb would turn Saddam into a huge figure in the
region. Islamic fundamentalists and many of the Arab nation-
alists feel humiliated throughout this century -- the loss of
Palestine, the occupation of Arab land by the West, the humil-
iation of the region throughout the century; they'll be vindicated
with Saddam. Here is a man who can stand up to the West,
who made it, who has it, who can do it. He will be a huge figure
in the region.


And the Arab "street," which we used to think is not very im-
portant ... September 11 is telling us, now, is very important,
because 14 out of the 19 killer hijackers, 13 or 14, are Saudis,
which are basically U.S. allies. So the Saudi street is not
stable, is not happy, neither with the government nor with the
alliance. So what we are ending with us a breeding ground
of groups that would work outside the alliance structure and
could support whichever extremist regime they think is attrac-
tive to them.


... There was no choice. Absolutely no choice to removing Sad-
dam. No alternative. Saddam has to be removed. Otherwise,
what you'll have is the region going down the drain, eventually,
with all kinds of extremist groups, possible skirmishes, small
wars, all kinds of actions. ...


- - -


Terrorism Training Inside Iraq

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/khod...

Excerpt: ... And they trained people to hijack airplanes?


Yes.


For what purpose?


... It has been said openly in the media and even to us, from
the highest command, that the purpose of establishing Sad-
dam's fighters is to attack American targets and American
interests. This is known. There's no doubt about it.


All this training is directed towards attacking American targets,
and American interests. The training does not only include
hijacking of planes and sabotage. ... Some other people were
trained to do parachuting. Some other areas were training on
how to penetrate enemy lines and get information from behind
enemy lines. But it's all for the general concept of hitting and
attacking American targets and American interests. ...

joe

Capt. JG wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
The fact Saddam was a totalitarian dictator and that the freedom and
liberty of Iraqis are voided by his continued
dictatorship seems to have escaped the supposed moral concerns of the
French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, and Vatican.

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

1) 12 years of continued torture, rape, murder, and totalitar-
ianism by Saddam and Saddam's cronies against the
people of Iraq,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Most Americans can see thru any rhetoric. Saddam needed to be taken
out.
That was crystal clear.


If you choose to rush thru pasting answers check the spelling.



2) Saddam's use of biochemical weapons against the Kurds
and Iranians,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Well mass murder must be OK then, we should look the other way right?



3) Saddam's starvation of groups out of favor with the ruling
regime (Marsh Arabs),

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Genocide is OK as long as we hate bush.


4) Saddam's construction of mosques and palaces of enormous
opulence as his people suffered,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

So then it's OK to starve children?

5) Saddam's continued development of weapons of mass destruc-
tion,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

Liar. Sucker...or just plain dumbass.


6) Saddam's alliances with and assistance to likeminded terrorist
entities,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

He bragged of sending Hammas suicide bombers families cash (rewards)
but thats not in anyway a clue to what he would do in the future is it?

7) Saddam's refusal to cooperate and pro-actively assist the inspec-
tors in a genuine effort to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction,

Saddam's posturing was a miscalculation, but it wouldn't have mattered.
Bushco was going to invade no matter what.

A simple mistake ...the poor mis-understood gentlemen. 10 yrs of
posturing who can blame him for telling the UN and the USA to **** off,
no one had the balls to comfront him.


8) Saddam's treating his commitments to disarm as burdens to be
avoided rather than as obligations to be fulfilled (disarmament
as a game, rather than as a goal),

So what? He didn't have anything to disarm.

So jon, if you had no cocaine in your car, and a cop pulled you over
and said he wanted to look for cocaine, or he was going to blow your
brains out, would you "POSTURE" and miscalculate?

I would if the cop was a liberal pussy pansy assed little douchbag.
Maybe thats how you want our country to be seen as again. Is that part
of the first 100 hours goals?


9) Saddam's financial support of Palestinian suicider-mass murder-
er organizations in a public display of hatred for human life,

Along with Iran and Syria.

Yeah and look how embolden the leader of Iran has become since the
mid-terms, he loves you guys, you have a new friend.


10) Saddam's past atrocities committed against the peoples of
Kuwait and Israel and Iran,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

All that oil burning was pretty huh, WTF Red and his boys made a
killing.


11) Saddam's past efforts to develop nuclear weapons (only
stopped due to Israeli bombing of a nuclear reactor and,
later on, the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait and the surprising
discovery, thereafter, that Iraq was within two years of devel-
oping nuclear weapons),

Key phrase, "past efforts." Iraq was no where near having them or even
seriously contemplating such a program.

Says you...

12) freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people, a people who have
been bullied and murdered into submission to totalitarianism,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Well screw them then huh Jon, just as long as we can hate bushco

13) defense of the United States, a country vulnerable to attacks
from mass murdering Islamist terrorists who could easily find
succor and WMD from an American-hating tyrant,

Bzzzt. Saddam hated and feared Islamic terrorists and never cooperated with
them.

But he loved us,,,,, right Jon?


14) prevention of the Saddam-Islamist-terrorist goal of a united
Arabia confronting the west (Saddam's goal was a united Arabia
led by Saddam -- Islamists' goal, worldwide conquest led
by a strong leader and the strongest leader in Arabia was
Saddam),

Complete fabrication on the part of Bushco.

Oh then that Kuwait, iran thingy, was just a way for Saddam to pass
his time.
Have you read anything about Saddam?


15) reducing the likelihood that Iran will develop nukes by removing
Iran's feeling it must do so to protect against its arch enemy,
Saddam,

Try picking up a newspaper... that's exactly what they're doing, NOW. Stupid
they're not.

Oh..I saw that, I have faith the dems are going to solve that little
problem in the first 100 hr program

16) increasing pressure on Saudi Arabia to deal with the terrorist
elements which are widespread in its midst due to Wahabism,

By invading Iraq? What kind of delusion is this?

If you shoot one rat, the others scurry and are skiddish.

17) the historical record which clearly demonstrates that pacifism-
appeasement-diplomacy are inept when confronting totalitarian-
ism led by a belligerent and powerful foe -- reference the Treaty
of Versailles and its lack of enforcement by France and Great
Britain as Hitler violated its tenets, re-armed, re-militarized the
Rhineland, and (unopposed until it was too late) set out to con-
quer most of Europe and Russia, allied with Japan in its effort
to dominate the Far East (an effort which led to the attack on
the U.S. at Pearl Harbor), -and- committed the systematic mass
murder of the handicapped, Jews, homosexual men, and any-
one else opposed to Hitler's tyranny.

Nothing to do with Saddam or his capabilities.



Sure Jon...sure

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

Capt. JG wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
The fact Saddam was a totalitarian dictator and that the freedom and
liberty of Iraqis are voided by his continued
dictatorship seems to have escaped the supposed moral concerns of the
French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, and Vatican.

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

1) 12 years of continued torture, rape, murder, and totalitar-
ianism by Saddam and Saddam's cronies against the
people of Iraq,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Most Americans can see thru any rhetoric. Saddam needed to be taken
out.
That was crystal clear.

That was not what we were told. We were told that he was an iminent threat.
Bushso lied.

If you choose to rush thru pasting answers check the spelling.



2) Saddam's use of biochemical weapons against the Kurds
and Iranians,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Well mass murder must be OK then, we should look the other way right?

No. We should not lie about the reasons for war. Bushco lied.



3) Saddam's starvation of groups out of favor with the ruling
regime (Marsh Arabs),

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Genocide is OK as long as we hate bush.

Bushco lied. He justified killing 3000 US troops, maiming 20K, and killing
100s of 1000s of innocent Iraqis by lying.


4) Saddam's construction of mosques and palaces of enormous
opulence as his people suffered,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

So then it's OK to starve children?

Is it better to kill 100s of 1000s of innocent civilians?


5) Saddam's continued development of weapons of mass destruc-
tion,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

Liar. Sucker...or just plain dumbass.

Talking about yourself or Bush?


6) Saddam's alliances with and assistance to likeminded terrorist
entities,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

He bragged of sending Hammas suicide bombers families cash (rewards)
but thats not in anyway a clue to what he would do in the future is it?

In fact, that's quite different than attacking the US. Hammas wasn't a
threat to the US, and the Israels are quite capable of defending themselves.


7) Saddam's refusal to cooperate and pro-actively assist the inspec-
tors in a genuine effort to rid itself of weapons of mass
destruction,

Saddam's posturing was a miscalculation, but it wouldn't have mattered.
Bushco was going to invade no matter what.

A simple mistake ...the poor mis-understood gentlemen. 10 yrs of
posturing who can blame him for telling the UN and the USA to **** off,
no one had the balls to comfront him.

And, there was need to invade to get rid of him. If BushI had supported the
Shiites after the first was, Saddam wouldn't have been there.


8) Saddam's treating his commitments to disarm as burdens to be
avoided rather than as obligations to be fulfilled (disarmament
as a game, rather than as a goal),

So what? He didn't have anything to disarm.

So jon, if you had no cocaine in your car, and a cop pulled you over
and said he wanted to look for cocaine, or he was going to blow your
brains out, would you "POSTURE" and miscalculate?

I would if the cop was a liberal pussy pansy assed little douchbag.
Maybe thats how you want our country to be seen as again. Is that part
of the first 100 hours goals?

As usual, this makes no sense. Grow up Joe. We went to war on a lie.


9) Saddam's financial support of Palestinian suicider-mass murder-
er organizations in a public display of hatred for human life,

Along with Iran and Syria.

Yeah and look how embolden the leader of Iran has become since the
mid-terms, he loves you guys, you have a new friend.

So, when is Bushco going to invade? NEVER. Neither is he going to invade N.
Korea. Sounds like appeasement to me.


10) Saddam's past atrocities committed against the peoples of
Kuwait and Israel and Iran,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

All that oil burning was pretty huh, WTF Red and his boys made a
killing.

Nothing to do with the war in this century. Talk to BushI who actually did
something right.


11) Saddam's past efforts to develop nuclear weapons (only
stopped due to Israeli bombing of a nuclear reactor and,
later on, the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait and the surprising
discovery, thereafter, that Iraq was within two years of devel-
oping nuclear weapons),

Key phrase, "past efforts." Iraq was no where near having them or even
seriously contemplating such a program.

Says you...

Says just about everyone who isn't too dumb to accept reality.


12) freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people, a people who have
been bullied and murdered into submission to totalitarianism,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

Well screw them then huh Jon, just as long as we can hate bushco

Your words not mine.

13) defense of the United States, a country vulnerable to attacks
from mass murdering Islamist terrorists who could easily find
succor and WMD from an American-hating tyrant,

Bzzzt. Saddam hated and feared Islamic terrorists and never cooperated
with
them.

But he loved us,,,,, right Jon?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.


14) prevention of the Saddam-Islamist-terrorist goal of a united
Arabia confronting the west (Saddam's goal was a united Arabia
led by Saddam -- Islamists' goal, worldwide conquest led
by a strong leader and the strongest leader in Arabia was
Saddam),

Complete fabrication on the part of Bushco.

Oh then that Kuwait, iran thingy, was just a way for Saddam to pass
his time.
Have you read anything about Saddam?

He was totally contained and on the way out. Bushco lied and 3000 died.


15) reducing the likelihood that Iran will develop nukes by removing
Iran's feeling it must do so to protect against its arch enemy,
Saddam,

Try picking up a newspaper... that's exactly what they're doing, NOW.
Stupid
they're not.

Oh..I saw that, I have faith the dems are going to solve that little
problem in the first 100 hr program

Didn't say they would. But, they won't invade Iraq to deal with Iran.

16) increasing pressure on Saudi Arabia to deal with the terrorist
elements which are widespread in its midst due to Wahabism,

By invading Iraq? What kind of delusion is this?

If you shoot one rat, the others scurry and are skiddish.

Really? Except for Iran, Syria, North Korea, Sudan, and the list goes on.


17) the historical record which clearly demonstrates that pacifism-
appeasement-diplomacy are inept when confronting totalitarian-
ism led by a belligerent and powerful foe -- reference the Treaty
of Versailles and its lack of enforcement by France and Great
Britain as Hitler violated its tenets, re-armed, re-militarized the
Rhineland, and (unopposed until it was too late) set out to con-
quer most of Europe and Russia, allied with Japan in its effort
to dominate the Far East (an effort which led to the attack on
the U.S. at Pearl Harbor), -and- committed the systematic mass
murder of the handicapped, Jews, homosexual men, and any-
one else opposed to Hitler's tyranny.

Nothing to do with Saddam or his capabilities.



Sure Jon...sure

Yes.