"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
The fact Saddam was a totalitarian dictator and that the freedom and
liberty of Iraqis are voided by his continued
dictatorship seems to have escaped the supposed moral concerns of the
French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, and Vatican.

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

1) 12 years of continued torture, rape, murder, and totalitar-
ianism by Saddam and Saddam's cronies against the
people of Iraq,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

2) Saddam's use of biochemical weapons against the Kurds
and Iranians,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

3) Saddam's starvation of groups out of favor with the ruling
regime (Marsh Arabs),

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

4) Saddam's construction of mosques and palaces of enormous
opulence as his people suffered,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

5) Saddam's continued development of weapons of mass destruc-
tion,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

6) Saddam's alliances with and assistance to likeminded terrorist
entities,

Untrue. Propaganda that was disproved many times over.

7) Saddam's refusal to cooperate and pro-actively assist the inspec-
tors in a genuine effort to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction,

Saddam's posturing was a miscalculation, but it wouldn't have mattered.
Bushco was going to invade no matter what.

8) Saddam's treating his commitments to disarm as burdens to be
avoided rather than as obligations to be fulfilled (disarmament
as a game, rather than as a goal),

So what? He didn't have anything to disarm.

9) Saddam's financial support of Palestinian suicider-mass murder-
er organizations in a public display of hatred for human life,

Along with Iran and Syria.

10) Saddam's past atrocities committed against the peoples of
Kuwait and Israel and Iran,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

11) Saddam's past efforts to develop nuclear weapons (only
stopped due to Israeli bombing of a nuclear reactor and,
later on, the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait and the surprising
discovery, thereafter, that Iraq was within two years of devel-
oping nuclear weapons),

Key phrase, "past efforts." Iraq was no where near having them or even
seriously contemplating such a program.

12) freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people, a people who have
been bullied and murdered into submission to totalitarianism,

Nothing to do with the invaision according to Bushco's rhetoric.

13) defense of the United States, a country vulnerable to attacks
from mass murdering Islamist terrorists who could easily find
succor and WMD from an American-hating tyrant,

Bzzzt. Saddam hated and feared Islamic terrorists and never cooperated with
them.

14) prevention of the Saddam-Islamist-terrorist goal of a united
Arabia confronting the west (Saddam's goal was a united Arabia
led by Saddam -- Islamists' goal, worldwide conquest led
by a strong leader and the strongest leader in Arabia was
Saddam),

Complete fabrication on the part of Bushco.

15) reducing the likelihood that Iran will develop nukes by removing
Iran's feeling it must do so to protect against its arch enemy,
Saddam,

Try picking up a newspaper... that's exactly what they're doing, NOW. Stupid
they're not.

16) increasing pressure on Saudi Arabia to deal with the terrorist
elements which are widespread in its midst due to Wahabism,

By invading Iraq? What kind of delusion is this?

17) the historical record which clearly demonstrates that pacifism-
appeasement-diplomacy are inept when confronting totalitarian-
ism led by a belligerent and powerful foe -- reference the Treaty
of Versailles and its lack of enforcement by France and Great
Britain as Hitler violated its tenets, re-armed, re-militarized the
Rhineland, and (unopposed until it was too late) set out to con-
quer most of Europe and Russia, allied with Japan in its effort
to dominate the Far East (an effort which led to the attack on
the U.S. at Pearl Harbor), -and- committed the systematic mass
murder of the handicapped, Jews, homosexual men, and any-
one else opposed to Hitler's tyranny.

Nothing to do with Saddam or his capabilities.




References:


- - -


Is he at war?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../synopsis.html

Excerpt: ... In the 10 years since the Gulf War ended,
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has said that he has
always considered himself at war with America. And
during that time, the U.S. has always considered him
a threat. ...


- - -


Motive:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/mylr...

Excerpt: ... Saddam's view of the utility of violence is
entirely different than ours. ... Saddam sees violence as
something that can achieve his goals. He sees a utility in
violence. In addition, Saddam seeks revenge against the
United States, to do to us what we have done to Iraq. ...


- - -


Primary goal/character (1 of 2):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...terviews/aburi...

Excerpt: ... Saddam Hussein thinks he talks to god. He has
a message--he has to lead Iraq, make it a model for the Arab
countries and then attract the rest of the Arab countries and
become the sole Arab leader of modern times.


... There is no stopping the man. He always has things in
focus. He never misses a beat. In terms of what the country's
all about, and in terms of where his country fits in the whole
world. ...


- - -


Primary goal/character (2 of 2):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/hamz...

Excerpt: ... Saddam is very vengeful, and Saddam believes
in getting back and attacking. ...


- - -


Saddam and weapons of mass destruction - differing
views of Arabs and Iraqis, generally speaking:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...terviews/aburi...

Excerpt: ... I don't think there was any Arab in the seventies
who did not want Saddam Hussein to have an atomic weapon.
They wanted him to have military parity. Israel had atomic
weapons. The Arabs wanted an Arab country to have atomic
weapons. Iraq was the head of the pack and therefore all
Arabs supported Saddam Hussein. ... I don't think there are
many Arabs at this moment in time ... who do not want Sad-
dam Hussein to have an atomic weapon now.


... there is a division between the vision of Saddam Hussein
that the Iraqis have and the vision of Saddam Hussein the
rest of the Arabs have. To the rest of the Arabs, he is the
man standing up to West. To the Iraqis, he is the man who
dragged us into this state of misery. Unwillingly. ...


- - -


Weapons of Mass Destruction:
Nuclear / Biological / Chemical:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...c/arsenal.html

Excerpt: ... In summary, the International Atomic Energy
Agency (IAEA) report says that following the August 1990
invasion of Kuwait, Iraq launched a "crash program" to
develop a nuclear weapon quickly by extracting weapons
grade material from safe-guarded research reactor fuel.
This project, if it had continued uninterrupted by the war,
might have succeeded in producing a deliverable weapon
by the end of 1992.


... In its 1999 final report to the U.N. Security Council,
UNSCOM noted that Iraq's biological warfare program was
"among the most secretive of its programs of weapons of
mass destruction."


- - -


Inspections a Cure-All?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/hamz...

Excerpt: ... The United Nations inspectors had a very mis-
guided opinion about what is disarmament. ... They thought
if you have something, I take it away from you, and you are
disarmed. Despite the knowledge you have, the expertise
you gained through the years, your contacts that could re-
purchase parts for you and put the thing back together. They
discounted all this. If you have a piece of equipment, they
take it away, and you are disarmed.


This is simplistic. They are not naïve; I talked to them. I talked
to many of the inspectors. We had some kind of give and take
in this. But they were restricted. ...


For example, on the nuclear ... the critical parts, that Iraq
could not replace easily, we did not tell about -- for example,
the molds that you make explosives with, the machines that
you make explosives with. Nobody is going to sell you these
anymore. Very difficult. So Iraq did not give these up. Not a
single explosive was given to the inspectors for the nuclear
weapon program. Not a single mold, not a single machine. ...


- - -


If Saddam Gets Nukes, What Will Happen?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/hamz...

Excerpt: ... We are talking about now the future of the region.


Now, Saddam gets nuclear weapons, and he has already the
full range of the chemical and most of the range of the bio-
logical probably. ... The expertise are there, all the scientists
are there, and he has oil money, to a degree, not as much as
before. So what you are getting is a highly weaponized state
with a huge terror organ -- the government itself is a terror
organ, and several organizations that could be satellites to it,
including Al Qaeda. ...


A nuclear bomb would turn Saddam into a huge figure in the
region. Islamic fundamentalists and many of the Arab nation-
alists feel humiliated throughout this century -- the loss of
Palestine, the occupation of Arab land by the West, the humil-
iation of the region throughout the century; they'll be vindicated
with Saddam. Here is a man who can stand up to the West,
who made it, who has it, who can do it. He will be a huge figure
in the region.


And the Arab "street," which we used to think is not very im-
portant ... September 11 is telling us, now, is very important,
because 14 out of the 19 killer hijackers, 13 or 14, are Saudis,
which are basically U.S. allies. So the Saudi street is not
stable, is not happy, neither with the government nor with the
alliance. So what we are ending with us a breeding ground
of groups that would work outside the alliance structure and
could support whichever extremist regime they think is attrac-
tive to them.


... There was no choice. Absolutely no choice to removing Sad-
dam. No alternative. Saddam has to be removed. Otherwise,
what you'll have is the region going down the drain, eventually,
with all kinds of extremist groups, possible skirmishes, small
wars, all kinds of actions. ...


- - -


Terrorism Training Inside Iraq

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...nterviews/khod...

Excerpt: ... And they trained people to hijack airplanes?


Yes.


For what purpose?


... It has been said openly in the media and even to us, from
the highest command, that the purpose of establishing Sad-
dam's fighters is to attack American targets and American
interests. This is known. There's no doubt about it.


All this training is directed towards attacking American targets,
and American interests. The training does not only include
hijacking of planes and sabotage. ... Some other people were
trained to do parachuting. Some other areas were training on
how to penetrate enemy lines and get information from behind
enemy lines. But it's all for the general concept of hitting and
attacking American targets and American interests. ...

joe

What I find truly amazing is that Maliki stood Bush up at the summit.. a
summit that supposed to be an important step to solving the Iraqi problem.
Of course, Bushco refuses to talk to the major players in the region who
could actually do something, but they did get Cheney out of his undisclosed
location long enough to fly to Saudi Arabia for a 20 minute kumbaya
sing-along with the addict and his oil dealer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OzOne wrote in message ...
On 28 Nov 2006 19:24:18 -0800, "Joe"
scribbled thusly:


BTW IMO WMD had nothing to do with the justification of taking out
Saddam

Joe

You have a very short memory Joe.
That was the whole reason for the invasion....It's only after when
they discovered no WMD that the line about saving the poor people from
a dreadful leader was promoted...all while the country was falling
apart and tens of thousands were being killed.

You think Iraq is now better off?
Look again..we stuffed it...civil war is happening despite the
denials...Vietnam was a success compared to the mess we've created in
Iraq and which has now outflowed to contaminate the whole Globe.....
Thank George!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,
We've been expecting you.

OzOne wrote:
On 28 Nov 2006 19:24:18 -0800, "Joe"
scribbled thusly:


BTW IMO WMD had nothing to do with the justification of taking out
Saddam

Joe

You have a very short memory Joe.

I seem to remember this, why don't you?

In 1998 the Congress of the United States passed the "Iraqi Liberation
Act."

This act was promoted and signed into law by then President Clinton.
This Act called for support of the INC (Iraqi National Congress) and
the removal of Saddam from power.


The Iraqi Liberation Act was enacted and was black letter law
long before President Bush was elected as President. President
Bush inherited this law, and the removal of Saddam had already
been mandated by the US Congress long before President Bush took
office.


In October 2001, the US Congress voted unanimously (save one
traitor from California) to resolve that "a state of war exists
between the USA and all international terrorists and all those
that aid or harbor terrorists." This Congressional resolution
provided President Bush with the individual power to determine
which entities and nations were either terrorists or aiding or
harboring terrorists, and further, granted President Bush
*exclusive* discretion to use the full weight of the US Military
to hunt down or otherwise eliminate any such designated enemies.


Saddam had developed his own terrorist faction called the
Fedayeen, and these terrorist goons surfaced during the invasion
of Iraq. These terrorists were not only responsible for murderous
attacks on coalition forces, they also were murdering Iraqis that
refused to fight and were further holding hostage the families of
Iraqi soldiers. In true radical Muslim style, these Fedayeen
terrorists also traveled around the Iraqi countryside
decapitating Iraqi women that had committed the unspeakable crime
of simply waiving at the coalition forces.


Saddam openly admitted and bragged about sending money and
arms to the Palestinian terrorist organizations known as Hamas,
PLO, and Islamic Jihad. All three of those terrorist
organizations have murdered Americans in the past, and are
well-known terrorist organizations.


On December 27, 2000, Saddam openly and publically declared
war on the United States, Britain and Israel. Saddam's
declaration of war occurred only ten months prior to the 911
massacres, and his declaration of war was carried on the front
pages of all the Baghdad newspapers, and on the front page of
most Arabic European newspapers. Under the articles of the Geneva
Convention, any nation in receipt of an official declaration of
war has a right to preemptively attack the nation that issued the
war declaration.


The USA and Britain not only had the legal right to invade Iraq
and depose Saddam due to the violation of not less than seventeen
UN Resolutions since the Gulf War, they also had the moral
authority and the ethical necessity to do so.

And I remember the start of this thread were 11 australian's took 290
million in bribes from Saddam, helping him to snub his nose at all the
UN demands.


Joe


That was the whole reason for the invasion....It's only after when
they discovered no WMD that the line about saving the poor people from
a dreadful leader was promoted...all while the country was falling
apart and tens of thousands were being killed.

You think Iraq is now better off?

Most Iraqi's yes

Look again..we stuffed it...civil war is happening despite the
denials...Vietnam was a success compared to the mess we've created in
Iraq and which has now outflowed to contaminate the whole Globe.....

Yeah, now Beruit, syria, n.korea, iran, syria all hate us..I miss the
warm fuzzy feeling I use to get from thoses country's.

Joe


Thank George!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,
We've been expecting you.

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

MMC wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...


The real issues, not MMC anti USA propaganda

Joe,
Not wanting to take over the world is "anti American"? What was your
first
book? Here ya go buddy http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
Sounds a little more in line with your rhetoric,
MMC

MMC only a fool thinks America is trying to take over the world.

Only a fool would sit around and watch the next Hitler rise to power
and un-oppose him.
BTW Saddam was a big fan of Mein Kampf and Hitler, not that you care.
Who told you this? Rush Limpdick?

Space Troopers! Away
That is funny coming from someone mainlining the bush koolaid.

Joe
So buddy, you headed down to the recruiters office? Or are your patriotic
duties covered by that yellow ribbon sticker on the back of your car?
MMC

MMC wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

MMC wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...


The real issues, not MMC anti USA propaganda

Joe,
Not wanting to take over the world is "anti American"? What was your
first
book? Here ya go buddy http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
Sounds a little more in line with your rhetoric,
MMC

MMC only a fool thinks America is trying to take over the world.

Only a fool would sit around and watch the next Hitler rise to power
and un-oppose him.
BTW Saddam was a big fan of Mein Kampf and Hitler, not that you care.
Who told you this? Rush Limpdick?

THE SOURCES
Here are 5 biographies on Saddam, all provide the evidence for
comparison.
Saddam Hussein: A Political Biography, by Efraim Karsh, Inari Rautsi
I Was Saddam's Son, by Latif Yahya
Saddam's Bombmaker: The Daring Escape of the Man Who Built Iraq's
Secret Weapon
by Khidr Abd Al-Abbas Hamzah, Khidhir Hamza,
Saddam Hussein: The Politics of Revenge, by Said K. Aburish
Saddam: King of Terror, by Con Coughlin

Saddam was also a big fan of Stalin

If you believe in evil, then there is no doubt that Saddam is horribly
evil.

If you dont believe in evil, then you will have to acknowledge that
Saddam is a terribly
"disfunctional" person (yes, he was abused as a child -- read his
biographies). It is a seperate issue whether the US has sufficient
cause to take military action against Saddam's regime, but it is clear
that Saddam is very much like both Hitler and Stalin both in goals and
methods.

THE COMPARISON
SADDAM HUSSEIN dreams of being a new Saladin and seeks the
renification of the Arabic people and a return to its former glories.
This is not new, it was the goal of the Baathist party which he joined
in 1957. To accomplish this he invaded Iran with the intent to annex
its Western provinces which have an Arabic majority (as differentiated
from the Persians who dominate Iran as a whole). He also attempted to
annex Kuwait which he viewed as historically part of Iraq. While
Saddam is less "crazy" than Hitler, he has no commitment to a racial
view of history or any other ideology, Saddam is every bit as
megalomaniacal. Saddam is also similar to Hitler in that given the
opportunity he would certainly destroy all Jews. They both have
contempt for basic human rights, both being willing to engage in any
depravity necessary to accomplish their goals. Saddam has been quoted
by people who have met him as saying that he admires Stalin and models
his goverment after Stalin's machinery of terror.







Space Troopers! Away
That is funny coming from someone mainlining the bush koolaid.

You're the dip who's posting rant's about America's New Space Force.
put the crack pipe down for a minute.



Joe
So buddy, you headed down to the recruiters office?

Did my tour in the Navy, if they needed me now I assure you I'd be
there.

Or are your patriotic
duties covered by that yellow ribbon sticker on the back of your car?
MMC

Beats the rainbow sticker on your car .

Joe

Slightly off topic but related to the world problems that now
exist... and don't know if this web site has been referred to
previously.

It's message/presentation is enough to cause concern even
with a moderate such as myself.

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/12min.htm

Kind of scary... you'll see... if you watch the 12 minute promo.

Especially it's depiction of the "youth movement".

Bill

wrote
Just to add a little fuel to the fire of controversy surrounding
our invasion of Iraq:

I live near a major Army training center up in the High Desert
of Southern California.


Is this you???? http://www.warnockworkbench.com/ Kewl lake. Kewler house.

Cheers,
Ellen

It's become glaringly obvious that Mr. Hussein was a necessity in Iraq. He
needs to be released, apologized to, and allowed to control the savages in
the previous manner.

Is this you????

Yeh Ellen... That's were I live and my "cave" as I call it.

But I keep my little boat (Mac) at a marina located in Oxnard
California... which is right next to Port Hueneme which Joe
and some of the other Navy vets would be familiar with .

Bill:

You can also visit:

www.billwarnock.com

wrote
You can also visit:

www.billwarnock.com


It's amazing. Tami's daughter's the spitting image of her and her son's the spitting image of his dad....
And, it's nice to see a family that's not obese. And you made your living room your *command post*. ;-)

Cheers,
Ellen