"otnmbrd" wrote
| Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down


I've been studying the Colregs. I know something about them. Your wrong because what
you say isn't complete. The Rules say it's RAM because of what you say above. But it's got
to be because of the work it's doing. Towing a fellow power boater who broke down or ran
out of gas isn't part of the definition of work. Work's got to do with laying pipes, dredging,
towing if your licensed to do it, repairing buoys etc. Look at it this way. What if I decided to
do a little dredging. I put something that dredges in the back of my little recreational runabout.
I stop somewhere and start dredging. Am I a RAM? No. I'm a law breaker. The work's not legal
so I'm not really working. It's not too hard to figure out.....

Cheers,
Ellen

G Keep studying



"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote
| Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down


I've been studying the Colregs. I know something about them. Your
wrong because what
you say isn't complete. The Rules say it's RAM because of what you say
above. But it's got to be because of the work it's doing. Towing a
fellow power boater who broke down or ran out of gas isn't part of the
definition of work. Work's got to do with laying pipes, dredging,
towing if your licensed to do it, repairing buoys etc. Look at it this
way. What if I decided to do a little dredging. I put something that
dredges in the back of my little recreational runabout. I stop
somewhere and start dredging. Am I a RAM? No. I'm a law breaker. The
work's not legal so I'm not really working. It's not too hard to
figure out.....

Cheers,
Ellen

"Scotty" wrote in
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
news
Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking
to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly
up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did
I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily


I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure. I would have gybed
away had he not cursed at me from the get go.




Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed
up/slow down


I would imagine he wouldn't want to slow down , seeing as
how short the 'tow rope' ( dockline?) was., but he certainly
could have steered a few degrees to port.

If you're in a river and stemming a tide/river current, then slowing down
is a possibility


Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Ample time in my mind, maybe not his?

G Always a problem. Judgement calls are just that..... what may be clear
to you may not be clear to me and vice versa.

otn

Sounds like you did the right thing. Giving them the finger is about right
also.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
it was JUST before, I think had I tried to gybe or tack, ,
in that light wind I would have ended up more in their way.

SBV



"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Seems like blowing a horn after the fact is a bit late,
but it's not clear
if they were sounding the horn before or during.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message

25.201...
"Scotty" wrote in
news
Last week while sailing up a river channel, about
200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter,2 powerboats, 'sitting' next
to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just
talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very
slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle,
I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer,
when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something
about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my
coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed
did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

Not necessarily

Would he be
considered a RAM?

Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed
up/slow down

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Can't remember where I read this, but no. If a vessel is
not normally
engaged in this type operation and would not normally
carry these type
day shapes because of their size then they need not be
displayed but they
should make every effort to inform (blowing a horn like
a NY taxi driver)

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

If you could do so safely with ample clearance, no....
ample clearance is
the key phrase.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat,
and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but
no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be
done to
the crossing boat?

First off, a "real" towboat is still obligated to obey
the normal
steering and sailing rules unless they are RAM (and RAM
is not an
automatic designation for a towboat), so there can be
any number of
possibilities as to right or wrong in your maneuver.
In answer to your question..... no harm no foul....
expect a tongue
lashing. Naturally if your maneuver was "illegal" and
the turn the
towboat had to make to avoid a collision endangered or
caused injury to
the tug,it's tow,or crew then you should expect a report
to the various
authorities and possible actions, collision or not.

Is there penalties for near misses?

To date, not generally.


otn

It helps when studying the colregs to learn how to read first.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
25.201...

G Keep studying



"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote
| Possibly....if he cannot deviate from his course/speed up/slow down


I've been studying the Colregs. I know something about them. Your
wrong because what
you say isn't complete. The Rules say it's RAM because of what you say
above. But it's got to be because of the work it's doing. Towing a
fellow power boater who broke down or ran out of gas isn't part of the
definition of work. Work's got to do with laying pipes, dredging,
towing if your licensed to do it, repairing buoys etc. Look at it this
way. What if I decided to do a little dredging. I put something that
dredges in the back of my little recreational runabout. I stop
somewhere and start dredging. Am I a RAM? No. I'm a law breaker. The
work's not legal so I'm not really working. It's not too hard to
figure out.....

Cheers,
Ellen

"otnmbrd" wrote
| G Keep studying


Of course but please read this:

(g) The term 'vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre' means a vessel which from the *nature of her work*
is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the
way of another vessel. The term 'vessel restricted in their ability to manoeuvre' shall include but not limited to:
(i) a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their
ability to deviate from their course.

Now, does it make sense to tell Scotty what you did? You said the little powerboat towing the other could
be a RAM. You are WRONG! There's no *nature of her work*. As long as the powerboat that's towing can maneuver
OK then it's not RAM. All it had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to throttle down or take it out of gear
or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It had no rule on it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.
Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi) that work means serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor broke. Saying a little power pleasure boat that's towing
another *severely* restricts its ability to deviate from course is nonsense. You've got to agree. If you
don't then your thinking is too weird.... It scares me to think people like you drive big ships. (sigh)
Still another thing. Scotty isn't answering. He knows more about trucks than boats anyway. So I'll ask you
what I asked him. What's the difference between one little power boat towing a broken down little power boat
and a powerboat like a trawler towing its dinghy? You wouldn't dare claim the trawler was RAM. It can maneuver
just fine. It might not *want* to slow down fast. The dinghy might smack into the transom. But it *can* slow down
fast. It's capable in other words. So can the powerboat towing another little powerboat. Doesn't that show how
silly your claim is?

Cheers,
Ellen

"Capt. JG" wrote
| It helps when studying the colregs to learn how to read first.



The voice of experience?

Cheers,
Ellen

Nothings changed I see..... you're arguments are still based on a narrow,
self serving interpretation of events and the Rules


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
reenews.net:


"otnmbrd" wrote
| G Keep studying


Now, does it make sense to tell Scotty what you did? You said
the little powerboat towing the other could
be a RAM. You are WRONG! There's no *nature of her work*.

Excuse me, but the "little powerboat" *nature of her work* was towing the
other vessel.

As long as
the powerboat that's towing can maneuver OK then it's not RAM.

True, but even you have enough reading comprehension to realize I said
that.

All it
had to do to keep outta the way of Scotty was to throttle down or take
it out of gear or turn the steering wheel. Duh! It had no rule on
it's side to expect a sailboat to give way.

I wasn't there;I don't know what the channel is like; I don't know the
state of the tide; direction and/or strength of current; wind; handling
characteristics of the vessels in question; abilities of the towing
vessel and operator; etc.....

Another thing. You can see from (i) thru (vi) that work means
serious work. It doesn't mean playing around
on a pleasure boat or helping out somebody whose motor broke.

Show me where it says that.

Saying a
little power pleasure boat that's towing another *severely* restricts
its ability to deviate from course is nonsense. You've got to agree.
If you don't then your thinking is too weird.... It scares me to
think people like you drive big ships. (sigh)

G It pleases me to know you are off the water, and your above first
sentence is one of the reasons why.....no, I don't agree that this is
always the case.

Still another thing. Scotty isn't answering. He knows more about
trucks than boats anyway. So I'll ask you
what I asked him. What's the difference between one little power boat
towing a broken down little power boat and a powerboat like a trawler
towing its dinghy? You wouldn't dare claim the trawler was RAM. It can
maneuver just fine. It might not *want* to slow down fast. The dinghy
might smack into the transom. But it *can* slow down fast. It's
capable in other words. So can the powerboat towing another little
powerboat. Doesn't that show how silly your claim is?

The fact that you've asked this series of stupid questions just adds to
my ongoing confirmation that you are a highly inexperienced amateur with
limited powers of intelligent reasoning/thought.

VBG
otn

Cheers,
Ellen

Scotty wrote:
Last week while sailing up a river channel, about 200yds
wide, doing 3 kts in light. wind, I spotted , off my
starboard stern quarter, 2 powerboats, 'sitting' next to
each other. I figured they were fishing, or just talking to
each other. Then they seemed to be trolling, very slowly up
river, as I was cutting across the channel at an angle, I
figured I had plenty of time to cross in front of them,
rather than behind in case they WERE trolling lines.
Then the lead PB starts honking his horn ( like a NYer, when
the light turns green) and yelling. I heard something about
my Mother, and towing and privilege. Since we were both
going slow, and not real close, I continued on my coarse. he
never got closer than 100 ft. Only after they passed did I
see the small towing line between them.

Would a 'tow' like this have 'privilege?

No, not unless they asked for it.

Would he be considered a RAM?

Not unless they so claimed. Even then, if there was an incident, they
would have to prove they really were RAM.

Wouldn't he need to be displaying a day
shape?

Yes, or a suitable substitute. Unfortunately, in the dark, there's no
easy way for small boats to convey the nature of this situation.

Many, if not most, recreational boaters make the assumption that if
they're doing something special, like towing, they magically have
right of way and everyone has to stay clear. The truth is they have
not such rights, though you should stay clear because they are
probably incompetent. The other assumption they make is that everyone
can clearly understand what is going on, even its dark and they have
no lights.

Given that I had ample time to cross, was I still
wrong to do so?

No, they were wrong to assume you would understand their situation.
The fact that you didn't realize it was a tow until after the fact, is
a good indication they did not adequately convey the situation. If
you cleared with over 100 feet and they did not have to alter course
or speed, you were not too close.


Even if it had been a properly marked 'real' towboat, and
someone crossed in front, causing the tow to turn, but no
collision happened, what if anything could/should be done to
the crossing boat?

Unless they declare RAM, you are standon. And a real towboat would
have the means to do so.

Is there penalties for near misses?

Not typically. The ColRegs themselves don't specify any punishment,
so it would have to be under some other law.

Joe wrote:
Is there penalties for near misses?

can be if someone pushes the issue and gets the USCG involved.

Joe

On starboard tack hove-to, with the helm lashed, I was nearly run over
by the schooner Aurora in Newport Harbor. I yelled at the skipper and
later when I was on port tack, altered course several times to try and
run me down again--failing to maintain his stand-on course. I wrote a
formal letter to the USCG and gave the names of witnesses. The USCG
gave them a telephone call and a mild slap on the wrist. The USCG
officer I spoke to told me they could not take action unless there
was in fact a collision.

I still have a copy of the original letter. I should post it here.

If you ever go to Newport. Don't patronize the Aurora.