"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

OzOne wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 17:57:21 -0700, "Peter"
scribbled thusly:


Maxprop wrote:
What can you tell me about Larry Ellison's boat Sayonnara? I'm told
he
raced it in the Hobart the year so many died. Any knowledge about
that?

I was looking it over rather thoroughly today. It's in storage in a
building in Holland, MI, waiting for who knows what. Sure is a big
*******.

I saw it when it got into Hobart in 1998. Yep it's a big *******. IIRC
he took line honours & swore he'd never do that race again.

PDW

My understanding is that he was totally disabled by seasickness and
fear after the storm hit, and yes, he did say that he would never do
that race again despite surviving and taking line honours.

I don't hold that in any way against the man, I know of a dozen or
more who gave up distance ocean racing after their experiences in '98.
One, a yachtsman of world renown has not sailed outside Sydney Heads
since if my memory serves me well.


Geeeze, what a bunch of pussies.

Heh . . . big talk from one who never spent what must have felt like a
fortnight in monstrous waves and hurricane-force winds.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

OzOne wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 17:57:21 -0700, "Peter"
scribbled thusly:


Maxprop wrote:
What can you tell me about Larry Ellison's boat Sayonnara? I'm told
he
raced it in the Hobart the year so many died. Any knowledge about
that?

I was looking it over rather thoroughly today. It's in storage in a
building in Holland, MI, waiting for who knows what. Sure is a big
*******.

I saw it when it got into Hobart in 1998. Yep it's a big *******. IIRC
he took line honours & swore he'd never do that race again.

PDW

My understanding is that he was totally disabled by seasickness and
fear after the storm hit, and yes, he did say that he would never do
that race again despite surviving and taking line honours.

I don't hold that in any way against the man, I know of a dozen or
more who gave up distance ocean racing after their experiences in '98.
One, a yachtsman of world renown has not sailed outside Sydney Heads
since if my memory serves me well.


Geeeze, what a bunch of pussies.

Heh . . . big talk from one who never spent what must have felt like a
fortnight in monstrous waves and hurricane-force winds.

Max

Max, I have been in several hurricanes at sea. 2 in the gulf and one in
the south China Sea. The one's in the gulf was on a standby boat. The
seas got so bad we had life rings washed of the bridge wings and
tangled in the mast approx 50-60 ftrs. The hurricane formed right
around us. Other time on a 32 ft Layfetta Skiff. Took us 4 hrs to get
out and 26 to get back in.. seas 25-40 ft. The worst by far was in the
South China sea with waves in the 60-80 ft class, same storm that the
fellow was killed on the tug trying to pull our ship away from the
dock. While delivering a boat to Wick Scottland we were hit by a rogue
in the north sea, normal waves were 30+ ft the rougue was around 60ft
and tore a 30 ft weld and moved the wheelhouse back 2 inches and blew
in every window. One of the wildest night ever was evacuating a rig 110
miles offshore, we had to wait to the last min for 5 guys to decide to
shut down the rig, we had 20fts off the stern all the way in, that boat
was screaming and surfing like you could not even imagine. Terry(my
wife) rode out Hurricane alicia on a 60 ft shrimpboat that had every
port and window smashed in with every wave putting at least a ft of
water in the wheelhose, waves in the 40 -60 ft range.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ps.com...

Maxprop wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

OzOne wrote:
On 25 Sep 2006 17:57:21 -0700, "Peter"
scribbled thusly:


Maxprop wrote:
What can you tell me about Larry Ellison's boat Sayonnara? I'm
told
he
raced it in the Hobart the year so many died. Any knowledge about
that?

I was looking it over rather thoroughly today. It's in storage in
a
building in Holland, MI, waiting for who knows what. Sure is a big
*******.

I saw it when it got into Hobart in 1998. Yep it's a big *******.
IIRC
he took line honours & swore he'd never do that race again.

PDW

My understanding is that he was totally disabled by seasickness and
fear after the storm hit, and yes, he did say that he would never do
that race again despite surviving and taking line honours.

I don't hold that in any way against the man, I know of a dozen or
more who gave up distance ocean racing after their experiences in '98.
One, a yachtsman of world renown has not sailed outside Sydney Heads
since if my memory serves me well.


Geeeze, what a bunch of pussies.

Heh . . . big talk from one who never spent what must have felt like a
fortnight in monstrous waves and hurricane-force winds.

Max

Max, I have been in several hurricanes at sea. 2 in the gulf and one in
the south China Sea. The one's in the gulf was on a standby boat. The
seas got so bad we had life rings washed of the bridge wings and
tangled in the mast approx 50-60 ftrs. The hurricane formed right
around us. Other time on a 32 ft Layfetta Skiff. Took us 4 hrs to get
out and 26 to get back in.. seas 25-40 ft. The worst by far was in the
South China sea with waves in the 60-80 ft class, same storm that the
fellow was killed on the tug trying to pull our ship away from the
dock. While delivering a boat to Wick Scottland we were hit by a rogue
in the north sea, normal waves were 30+ ft the rougue was around 60ft
and tore a 30 ft weld and moved the wheelhouse back 2 inches and blew
in every window. One of the wildest night ever was evacuating a rig 110
miles offshore, we had to wait to the last min for 5 guys to decide to
shut down the rig, we had 20fts off the stern all the way in, that boat
was screaming and surfing like you could not even imagine. Terry(my
wife) rode out Hurricane alicia on a 60 ft shrimpboat that had every
port and window smashed in with every wave putting at least a ft of
water in the wheelhose, waves in the 40 -60 ft range.

I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar. I've been through hurricane-force winds and
very closely-spaced seas of 30' or more on a 767' bulk freighter (sistership
to the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald), but never felt that my life was in
jeopardy. Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm. By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.

Max

Maxprop wrote:


I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

I assure you the layfette Skiff is lighter buildt than an Maxi, infact
as I mentioned I was out with the owner right before I bought the boat,
as the seas buildt he wanted to transfer to an oil rig and ditch the
boat, Knowing it was going to extreamly dangerious to try to get on a
rig I told him then and there if he did I was going to claim salvage on
the boat and not give him a penney for it...

I've been through hurricane-force winds and
very closely-spaced seas of 30' or more on a 767' bulk freighter (sistership
to the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald), but never felt that my life was in
jeopardy.


Why would you in 30 ftrs on a 767ft ship?

Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm. By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.

Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together. You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

Joe

Max

Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.


.... By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.



Joe wrote:
Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together.

Talk is cheap, Joe. You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves. Many had 40' of
breaker on top. They were unusually steep because of a
countering current... no surfing, you'd just fall from the
crest straight down. From what I have read, it was a more
violent storm than a U.S. east coast (or gulf) hurricane.



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.


Now there, I agree totally.

DSK

DSK wrote:
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.


.... By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.



Joe wrote:
Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together.

Talk is cheap, Joe.

What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves.

The size is not as important and spacing IMO

Many had 40' of
breaker on top.

well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.


They were unusually steep because of a
countering current... no surfing, you'd just fall from the
crest straight down. From what I have read, it was a more
violent storm than a U.S. east coast (or gulf) hurricane.

Rita produced 98 fters and Cat 5 winds.



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.


Now there, I agree totally.

And that is my whole beef...There are some things which cannot be
learned quickly or bought, and time.....which is all we have.......
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.

Joe



DSK

Talk is cheap, Joe.


Joe wrote:
What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.


Or guys who like to call themselves "Captain" because they
can wrote a check.

... You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves.


The size is not as important and spacing IMO



Right,and by all reports the '98 Hobart storm (as mentioned
earlier) were viciously steep & close together. The worst
were generated over a shallow area with a tidal current
running counter to the wind.





Rita produced 98 fters and Cat 5 winds.


One anecdote from the '98 Hobart storm was that one of the
rescue helicopters was flying low, trying to spot one of the
yachts, had SAR crewman leaning out the hatch looking
down... suddenly he pulled his head in and yelled "PULL UP!"
The pilot, seeing 110' on his altimeter, did so anyway by
reflex and felt the top of a wave grab the wheels as it went
under them.

Generally, people were too busy to take accurate
measurements of waves. Once they get higher than the mast,
what's the point?



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

Now there, I agree totally.

And that is my whole beef...There are some things which cannot be
learned quickly or bought, and time.....which is all we have.......
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.


Yep. But on the other hand, gaining mastery of a difficult &
complex subject is time well spent.

DSK

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...


What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

I don't recall that Ellison behaved any differently than anyone else on his
boat. In fact, I believe one of his crew were injured and he was very
concerned for his well being.


The size is not as important and spacing IMO

I doubt if most professional sailors would entirely agree.


well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.

I believe the crew of the Andrea Gale witnessed something like that rather
near the end of their lives.


Max

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that. Sayonara was fast enough to
beat the worst of the storm. The heavy Winston Churchill wasn't, sadly.

Max

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

Maxprop wrote:


I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

I assure you the layfette Skiff is lighter buildt than an Maxi,

Hmmm. I'd doubt that. I saw the photo you provided, and the skiff looked
to be a work boat, which are generally built for the long haul = stout.

infact
as I mentioned I was out with the owner right before I bought the boat,
as the seas buildt he wanted to transfer to an oil rig and ditch the
boat,

I'd have thought that would be more a decision based upon length,
displacement, and seakindliness than construction integrity.

Knowing it was going to extreamly dangerious to try to get on a
rig I told him then and there if he did I was going to claim salvage on
the boat and not give him a penney for it...

Yup. I would have done similarly under the circumstances.

I've been through hurricane-force winds and
very closely-spaced seas of 30' or more on a 767' bulk freighter
(sistership
to the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald), but never felt that my life was in
jeopardy.


Why would you in 30 ftrs on a 767ft ship?

My wife and I booked passage on a bulk freighter out of Burns Harbor, IN,
upbound for Duluth, MN, two years ago. It was an amazing experience, but
the weather got quite nasty on Lake Superior for the last third of the trip.
Even a few experienced crewmen became ill.


Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm. By converse reasoning it
would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion
of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.

Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain.

That may very well be. Many said he had no business being on that boat.
Oh, except that he owned it. But the storm was the worst ever, IIRC, in
Sydney-Hobart history.

He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together. You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

IIRC, Larry kept his feelings to himself. After winning the race, he
compared his impressions with those of his crew and many others apparently
felt they would not survive the storm, either. But you are basically right
about rich boys who like to play at ocean racing--they get what they want
with a check, not with qualifications.

Max