Docking Situation Question #3
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you
describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a
workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to
maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction.

Oddly enough Jeff... neither had I until I was faced with a season of
sailing without auxilliary. It had been explained to me by the fishermen I
worked with as a youth and I also remembered the advise given me by my
betters about planning departure/arrivals and having a back-up plan to that.
I practised the manuevers and familiarized myself with the capabilities and
limitations of my vessel. I realized that year that an auxilliary was much
like any other conveinience aboard a boat. Not required but easier. I think
every course in sailing should incorporate a large portion on boat handling
without an engine. This is not currently taught that I know of and it leads
to opinions like Ganz's.

He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that.

I only agree that it isn't taught.... Jon's position is that it is
arbitarily inconsequential... that is the idiotic statement that I take
offense to. Instead of trying to learn... he condemns and preaches about a
subject he has no experience with. He displays his ignorance as a badge of
merit.

I'm going sailing, eventually.

Good for you... I've just secured a mooring and storage at Shining Waters
Marina for when I return from the work site. They have a travel lift and so
I won't have to endure the cluster**** of a crane launch. It will also allow
me to extend my sailing time. Maybe I'll get to do some winter sailing this
year. I love sailing in a fresh snowfall. Then again I'm Canadian so cold
weather isn't the impediment it is to you southern sailors. :-)

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

AHA !!!!!



"silverback" wrote in message
news:I0cPg.28256$E67.1371@clgrps13...
It would be nigh impossible on a large vessel from a
midship cleat.

CM

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore.


Scotty wrote:
I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and
I may
be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you
pull
the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat
she
said.

Scotty



"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
silverback wrote:
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote
in
message

reenews.ne
t...
"Scotty" wrote
| the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the
dock
and
| you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat
INTO the
| wind by hand???


Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really
big
boats. I'd say
anything up to 25
feet would work that way. A strong man could
probably
pull a 30 foot boat
out in
say 10-15 miles per hour wind.
Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30
knots
on a lee dock....
can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy
like Ganz.
The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30
knot breeze is
about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up.

I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the
engine
for a season.
One of the few times I used it was to raise a well
set
anchor in a
crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I
was
30 years
younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the
anchor with sails
set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode.


I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer.
The
only thing to
overcome is inertia....
With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000
pounds.
Yes, there
are probably a few tricks you can play, but just
hauling
hand over
hand isn't going to do much.

Docking Situation Question #3
 

You're a very pathetic guy, and obviously quite angry with the world.
Something must have happened to you and we all should feel sorry for you.

For leaving a dock, ground tackle is rarely if ever used. Feel free to name
the myriad circumstances that you would use it.

I don't believe you actually work. I think you're in a hospital, perhaps as
an outpatient. You're clearly a liar.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:tUbPg.28149$E67.14838@clgrps13...

"Jeff" wrote in message

But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this
is the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the
dock? Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail
it away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push.

What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no
more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be
completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my
statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket
denouncement.

I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all.
Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't
like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind
on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent
searoom is a recipe for disaster.

Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and
smartly executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To
arrbitrarily denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state
that any vessel can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to
superior sailing skills is ludicrous.

I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor
and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand
is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any
experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a
resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered
illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a
pompous little asshole.

To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under
sail is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when
planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I
can tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions
required it because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground
tackle to sail into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most
secure method to undertake the required positioning to execute that
maneuver.

Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have
used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels
ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife
requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate
it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the
curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it.

Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling.
Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This
isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel
to compliment the ground tackle aboard.

Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a
while.

Later

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

Jeff, you're debating someone who will eventually start calling you names as
soon as you disagree with him a couple of more times. You know that right?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:nRcPg.28914$E67.11290@clgrps13...

"Jeff" wrote in message
I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you
describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a
workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to
maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction.

Oddly enough Jeff... neither had I until I was faced with a season of
sailing without auxilliary. It had been explained to me by the fishermen I
worked with as a youth and I also remembered the advise given me by my
betters about planning departure/arrivals and having a back-up plan to
that. I practised the manuevers and familiarized myself with the
capabilities and limitations of my vessel. I realized that year that an
auxilliary was much like any other conveinience aboard a boat. Not
required but easier. I think every course in sailing should incorporate a
large portion on boat handling without an engine. This is not currently
taught that I know of and it leads to opinions like Ganz's.

He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that.

I only agree that it isn't taught.... Jon's position is that it is
arbitarily inconsequential... that is the idiotic statement that I take
offense to. Instead of trying to learn... he condemns and preaches about a
subject he has no experience with. He displays his ignorance as a badge of
merit.

I'm going sailing, eventually.

Good for you... I've just secured a mooring and storage at Shining Waters
Marina for when I return from the work site. They have a travel lift and
so I won't have to endure the cluster**** of a crane launch. It will also
allow me to extend my sailing time. Maybe I'll get to do some winter
sailing this year. I love sailing in a fresh snowfall. Then again I'm
Canadian so cold weather isn't the impediment it is to you southern
sailors. :-)

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

Yes, but Mooron thinks an anchor is required. Perhaps for him it is.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may
be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull
the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she
said.

Scotty



"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
silverback wrote:
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message

reenews.ne
t...
"Scotty" wrote
| the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock
and
| you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat
INTO the
| wind by hand???


Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big
boats. I'd say
anything up to 25
feet would work that way. A strong man could probably
pull a 30 foot boat
out in
say 10-15 miles per hour wind.

Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots
on a lee dock....
can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy
like Ganz.

The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30
knot breeze is
about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up.

I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine
for a season.
One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set
anchor in a
crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was
30 years
younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the
anchor with sails
set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode.



I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The
only thing to
overcome is inertia....

With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds.
Yes, there
are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling
hand over
hand isn't going to do much.

Docking Situation Question #3
 

Bzzt. Wrong answer.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:I0cPg.28256$E67.1371@clgrps13...
It would be nigh impossible on a large vessel from a midship cleat.

CM

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore.


Scotty wrote:
I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may
be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull
the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she
said.

Scotty



"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
silverback wrote:
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...
"Scotty" wrote
| the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock
and
| you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat
INTO the
| wind by hand???


Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big
boats. I'd say
anything up to 25
feet would work that way. A strong man could probably
pull a 30 foot boat
out in
say 10-15 miles per hour wind.
Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots
on a lee dock....
can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy
like Ganz.
The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30
knot breeze is
about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up.

I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine
for a season.
One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set
anchor in a
crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was
30 years
younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the
anchor with sails
set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode.


I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The
only thing to
overcome is inertia....
With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds.
Yes, there
are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling
hand over
hand isn't going to do much.

Docking Situation Question #3
 

You're pathetic. It's in your head.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:1ibPg.27668$E67.25968@clgrps13...

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote


He might be exaggerating a little


That is priceless!

;))))))

Heh..... I'm a sailor... it's in the blood. :-)

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

You're an angry little man. I feel sorry for you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:AVbPg.28164$E67.13272@clgrps13...
You're so-o-o-o-o-o GAY Ganzy!

CM-

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Ummm dummy, maybe he's just what I said, and angry guy who can't take
responsibility for his own actions. And, like I said previously, who
cares what you think.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry
person. Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about
him.



Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff
language because it makes him feel good to say
it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he
expects people will understand that it's just
theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out.
Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire.
You'd maybe not take it personally. What you
say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as
colorful.

Cheers,
Ellen

Docking Situation Question #3
 

Keep doing this Mooron, and you will succeed in screwing yourself over. You
need to calm down and try not to get so angry.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"silverback" wrote in message
news:rXbPg.28188$E67.19111@clgrps13...
Don't forget my pet Turkey!

I thought it was a hawk but when I tried to teach it to attack... it just
jumped off my glove and pecked seeds on the ground. I was crushed.

Jon... you're so-o-o-o-o GAY!

CM-

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Clearly not. If you think he's so kewl, then why don't you email him.
Maybe he'll take you in like one of the many chickens he has routing
around on his property.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry
person. Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about
him.


Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people
out for
myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe
you
should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him.
You
know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being
crabby and
crabby gets you crabby.

Cheers,
Ellen

Docking Situation Question #3
 

Like I said....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..
well, sure, if you're talking about big, slow full keel
double ended pigs that can't sail out of their own way.

SBV


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
1 point for CM

Small boat might get off with a running start, but it
is by no means certain and this is a small subset of the
sailing population. The proper way is to set an
anchor and pull yourself off.

If the boat is big, it will have big winches. You can
winch yourself off the dock and lay to a single anchor.

As to when you should set your sails. That is a matter
of choice. When laying to a single anchor you can hoist
later or you can do it in advance--which means more work.

I'd just set the main after pulling myself off and leave
the
foredeck clean for working up the anchor. With a roller
furler I'd unroll the jib enough to allow me to back the
sail but not enough to be in the way of hosting the
anchor.
The advantage to having the jib set is you can back it if
you
are in irons. The same could be done with the main, but
less
effectively.


"silverback" wrote

"Scotty" wrote in message

the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock
and
you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO
the
wind by hand???


YES! My boat is six tons and I've done it many times!
Raise main & genny.
Hand over hand the vessel to the point where the anchor
is holding but
ready to be weighed.... now take in sheets..... then
weigh anchor as you
sail by the hook point.

Scotty... it works everytime. I sailed for a season
without aux. I know
what a sailboat can do without an engine. It's truly
amazing. The key is
to preplan your manuevers. Think out the situation and
most of all...
understand your boat.

CM