Docking Situation Question #3
 

Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore.


Scotty wrote:
I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may
be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull
the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she
said.

Scotty



"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
silverback wrote:
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...
"Scotty" wrote
| the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock
and
| you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat
INTO the
| wind by hand???


Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big
boats. I'd say
anything up to 25
feet would work that way. A strong man could probably
pull a 30 foot boat
out in
say 10-15 miles per hour wind.
Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots
on a lee dock....
can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy
like Ganz.
The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30
knot breeze is
about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up.

I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine
for a season.
One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set
anchor in a
crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was
30 years
younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the
anchor with sails
set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode.


I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The
only thing to
overcome is inertia....
With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds.
Yes, there
are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling
hand over
hand isn't going to do much.

Docking Situation Question #3
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote


He might be exaggerating a little


That is priceless!

;))))))

Heh..... I'm a sailor... it's in the blood. :-)

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

"Jeff" wrote in message

But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is
the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock?
Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it
away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push.

What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no
more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be
completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my
statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket
denouncement.

I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all.
Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't
like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind
on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent
searoom is a recipe for disaster.

Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and smartly
executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To arrbitrarily
denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state that any vessel
can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to superior sailing
skills is ludicrous.

I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor
and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand
is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any
experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a
resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered
illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a
pompous little asshole.

To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under sail
is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when
planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I can
tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions required it
because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground tackle to sail
into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most secure method to
undertake the required positioning to execute that maneuver.

Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have
used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels
ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife
requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate
it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the
curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it.

Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling.
Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This
isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel
to compliment the ground tackle aboard.

Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a while.

Later

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

You're so-o-o-o-o-o GAY Ganzy!

CM-

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Ummm dummy, maybe he's just what I said, and angry guy who can't take
responsibility for his own actions. And, like I said previously, who cares
what you think.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person.
Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him.



Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff
language because it makes him feel good to say
it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he
expects people will understand that it's just
theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out.
Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd
maybe not take it personally. What you
say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as
colorful.

Cheers,
Ellen

Docking Situation Question #3
 

Don't forget my pet Turkey!

I thought it was a hawk but when I tried to teach it to attack... it just
jumped off my glove and pecked seeds on the ground. I was crushed.

Jon... you're so-o-o-o-o GAY!

CM-

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Clearly not. If you think he's so kewl, then why don't you email him.
Maybe he'll take you in like one of the many chickens he has routing
around on his property.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote
| Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person.
Just
| watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him.


Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people
out for
myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe
you
should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him.
You
know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being
crabby and
crabby gets you crabby.

Cheers,
Ellen

Docking Situation Question #3
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
He's right that it's possible. He's not right that it's usually necessary.
If it were, it would be in the standard books. However, if you wouldn't
mind showing me a book or lesson plan that it is in, I'd be happy to
concede that someone out there is teaching it to others.

Ganzy is a book read sailor... Ganzy is a book read sailor.... Ganzy you are
so fricken Gay! Show you a book indeed!!! Bwahahahahahahahahahaaaa

CM-

Docking Situation Question #3
 

I'm baiting Ganzy with facts he's unaware of. He'll respond that I'm angry!
:-)

CM

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"silverback" wrote in message
news:SUZOg.17847$E67.11705@clgrps13...

"Scotty" wrote in message

the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and
you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO
the
wind by hand???


YES! My boat is six tons and I've done it many times!
Raise main & genny.
Hand over hand the vessel to the point where the anchor is
holding but ready
to be weighed.... now take in sheets..... then weigh
anchor as you sail by
the hook point.

Scotty... it works everytime. I sailed for a season
without aux. I know what
a sailboat can do without an engine. It's truly amazing.
The key is to
preplan your manuevers. Think out the situation and most
of all...
understand your boat.


Shhhhh..be quiet Moron, you'll spoil all the fun!

Scotty

Docking Situation Question #3
 

It would be nigh impossible on a large vessel from a midship cleat.

CM

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore.


Scotty wrote:
I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may
be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull
the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she
said.

Scotty



"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
silverback wrote:
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...
"Scotty" wrote
| the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock
and
| you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat
INTO the
| wind by hand???


Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big
boats. I'd say
anything up to 25
feet would work that way. A strong man could probably
pull a 30 foot boat
out in
say 10-15 miles per hour wind.
Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots
on a lee dock....
can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy
like Ganz.
The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30
knot breeze is
about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up.

I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine
for a season.
One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set
anchor in a
crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was
30 years
younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the
anchor with sails
set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode.


I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The
only thing to
overcome is inertia....
With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds.
Yes, there
are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling
hand over
hand isn't going to do much.

Docking Situation Question #3
 

"Scotty" wrote in message

Don't interrupt, he's on a roll.

I love this group..... :-)

CM

Docking Situation Question #3
 

silverback wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message

But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is
the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock?
Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it
away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push.

What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no
more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be
completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my
statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket
denouncement.

If you read my original comment about the forces, it was not a
denouncement, its was a statement of fact. Yes, those forces included
some yaw, but Ellen was talking about hauling the boat sideways to the
wind. If I could do it with my 25 footer (and I was truly a skinny
wimp back then) I have no doubt that a stronger person could do it
with a 30 footer. Its just not easy.


I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all.
Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't
like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind
on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent
searoom is a recipe for disaster.

I have no doubt that you can construct a scenario where it would be
the preferred method. But it would have to be very constrained if the
wind was on the bow. You should need more than a boatlength to get
the boat going. And, in that thread, we were specifically talking
about Ellen's boat, which is a tad smaller than a Rhodes 19. I've
sailed them off the dock hundreds of times, in all manner or
conditions, without drama.


Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and smartly
executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To arrbitrarily
denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state that any vessel
can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to superior sailing
skills is ludicrous.

I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you
describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have
a workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to
maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction.

There's a large boat at my marina that sits at the end of a dock and
sets his anchor to hold him off. While it makes sense in strong
winds, it's an annoyance to have an anchor line sticking out all the time.


I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor
and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand
is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any
experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a
resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered
illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a
pompous little asshole.

He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that.


To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under sail
is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when
planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I can
tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions required it
because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground tackle to sail
into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most secure method to
undertake the required positioning to execute that maneuver.

Yes, I had to do that once.


Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have
used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels
ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife
requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate
it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the
curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it.

Indeed, another instructor who had never done it.


Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling.
Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This
isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel
to compliment the ground tackle aboard.

Kedging off a sandbank or setting a second anchor is a pretty common
thing, but as I've said, I've never seen a small boat do it from the dock.


Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a while.


I'm going sailing, eventually.