1- torture is evil
2- People who torture others are evil
3- People who order others to commit torture are evil


Joe wrote:
agreeded what's your problem? The president said he did not approve
torture.

In that case, he either lied or else is criminally clueless
about what goes on in his chain of command. Rumsfeld has
officially said yes to torture, as has Attorny General Gonzales.


I do not endorse torture, just effective questioning.


OK so ttell us the difference.


How do you think we should get intel from a captured prisioner?

By means other than torture.


Is it OK to detain and question known enemy leaders ?


That depends on what you mean by "known enemy leaders." What
if the Democrats win an election due to all these Republican
screw-ups, and you get tagged as an enemy of the state
because of your constant political posturing here? Wanna get
hog-tied upside-down over a bathtub of ice water? Hey you
say it's not so bad.





5- Torture very often goes wrong, such as when some "OGA
guys" killed one of the Al-Queda #2 men they captured before
he could reveal anything. Apparently had a weak heart or
something. Oh well.


Yeah oh well....to bad......so sad.

Well? Your whole premise is to get info.

It FAILED can you understand that? A big failure since this
guy was so high up in the organization.

Maybe you think failure to protect the US from terrorist
threats is OK?



.... BTW if your going to wage war and
get captured you should make sure your heart is up to it.


You don't seem to get it Joe... the issue is not the death
of an enemy, the issue is 1- our moral stature and 2-
FAILURE to get info.

We agree on the moral issue, the only question is why you
want the US to become an evil dictatorial regime. I am
pointing out to you the FAILURE of your idealized meethods.
Do you think it's perfectly OK to fail at protecting
America, as long as you do it in a macho brutal way?




Yeah I'm sure if the tower was taken down in LA, and 1000's died, you
would be all over Bush saying why diden't you do everything you could
to prevent it?

Personally, I think that's a fantasy.

We know that President Bush and his cabinet put a very low
priority on terrorism and did almost nothing to stop the
Sept 11th attack. That is a real failure.

We know that President Bush pulled troops out of the hunt
for Osama Bin Laden in order to stage the invasion of Iraq.
That is another real failure.




And here's the one that matters.

Would you use extreme questioning (" torture" to you Lilly Bural
winnies) techniques on Abu Zubaydah to save 1000 Americans from getting
murdered?


Nope. Wouldn't even think about it.

Your problem (one of them, anyway) is that you cannot accept
responsibility for your own actions, and you apparently
cannot assign responsibility to others for theirs.