Does admiting that you lied
 

In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.


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Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.

What if it was your wife? And the only way to keep them from doing it
to your daughter was to find out what they were going to do next?

Would you use agressive questioning methods?

Are we at war?

Can we detain and question the enemy?

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article . com,
Joe wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.

What if it was your wife? And the only way to keep them from doing it
to your daughter was to find out what they were going to do next?

Of course, if was my wife, daughter, or someone else near and dear to
me, I would want to use every technique I could to prevent them from
being harmed and/or smash those who did it. However, we should not be
driven by what we would like to do or want to do, but rather we should
strive to do what is right. Torture is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a
right.

It's easy to bring up the the ticking bomb scenario and use that as a
justification to torture people. The only problem is that it's rarely
necessary. And, you must be very cautious before opening that
Pandora's Box. What follows is a very slippery slope, leading to the
abridgement of everything we hold to be right.

Would you use agressive questioning methods?

Of course, and aggressive questioning is legal. Torture is not.

Are we at war?

We are. We didn't torture anyone in any previous war that I'm aware
of, including WWII, where some of the perpetrators of horrible acts
certainly deserved it, although there were some individuals who did
I'm sure. What they did, and what has happened recently (much
publicized) is illegal, and those who do it should be expelled from
their positions and sent to prison.

Can we detain and question the enemy?

We can, do, and always have done so.

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.

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In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 11:36:44 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times,

You mean like that denial that there were secret prisons, which Oz and Doug
seem to have so much trouble locating?

Somebody's got a credibility problem, but I don't think it's GWB.

No, like with he said Saddam had WMDs. Like when he and Rumsfeld said
the war would be over in a few months. Like when he said major
hostilities are over. Like when he stood on that carrier under the
sign that said Mission Accomplished, and then 1500+ of our brave
soldiers died afterward. Like when he said we're going to smoke out
Bin Laden, and never again let Al-Qaeda or the Taliban establish a
safe-haven, and then we get the peace treaty between them and
Pakistan. Shall I go on, or does that answer you question.

Somebody sure does have a credibility problem, and it's definitely
Bushco.

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In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 12:38:48 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

he said we're going to smoke out
Bin Laden, and never again let Al-Qaeda or the Taliban establish a
safe-haven, and then we get the peace treaty between them and
Pakistan.

So I take it you're advocating an invasion of Pakistan?

Yes. I think that would be a heck of lot more appropriate than
invading Iraq. They're certainly no friend of ours.


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Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article . com,
Joe wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.

What if it was your wife? And the only way to keep them from doing it
to your daughter was to find out what they were going to do next?

Of course, if was my wife, daughter, or someone else near and dear to
me, I would want to use every technique I could to prevent them from
being harmed and/or smash those who did it. However, we should not be
driven by what we would like to do or want to do, but rather we should
strive to do what is right. Torture is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a
right.

OK you strive to do right, and they killed your kid because you were
not able to make them talk.. Was that right? Evil won. You lost...
over...no second chance.

We should all strive to do good and right Jon.

Now, you make the guy talk, and you dont kill him, or even have to get
physical and he talks and your child lives a long and happy life.. You
won...he goes to prison. Yeah!!!!

You can not turn the other cheek with these people Jon, you can not
barter, or buy them it's been public for many yrs the 25million dollar
reward for Ossama. They were a large well formed well funded terrorist
group .. Now the big wigs are in Gitmo.....

You act as if the USA swooped up poor John Doe put bamboo under his
finger nails, tore out his tounge and tossed him out of a helo to make
the other talk.


It's easy to bring up the the ticking bomb scenario and use that as a
justification to torture people. The only problem is that it's rarely
necessary.

At war the bomb is ticking and exploding every day, it's fact these
guys were going to attack LA in 2002.

And, you must be very cautious before opening that
Pandora's Box.

I think the upmost caution is used, and the list is a mile long, and
the DNA is there, and film, photos, fingerprints, paper trails,
internet trails, phone trails, even the licene plate on the last camel
they rode.

What follows is a very slippery slope, leading to the
abridgement of everything we hold to be right.

Perhpas youd be happier if give up now, and crap on what our fore
father spent 200 plus years fighting for so we can all be gentleman to
jihad radical muslims out to murder us infidels.

Would you use agressive questioning methods?

Of course, and aggressive questioning is legal. Torture is not.

Are we at war?

We are. We didn't torture anyone in any previous war that I'm aware
of, including WWII,

I agree, but we did some very rough questioning on the battle fields I
assure you.

where some of the perpetrators of horrible acts
certainly deserved it, although there were some individuals who did
I'm sure. What they did, and what has happened recently (much
publicized) is illegal, and those who do it should be expelled from
their positions and sent to prison.

Uhh we did that Jon, just the other day with the yahoo's in Iraq.

Can we detain and question the enemy?

We can, do, and always have done so.

And do we disclose where we were keeping them, give them due process?

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.

According to M. Moore , Gore, and the Chicks with dicks.

Joe
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In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:00:26 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

So I take it you're advocating an invasion of Pakistan?

Yes. I think that would be a heck of lot more appropriate than
invading Iraq. They're certainly no friend of ours.

The question was not which of two invasions you think preferable, but
whether you advocate an invasion of Pakistan. Do you?

If we weren't bogged down in Iraq, yes. Given our current situation,
we need to fix the mess we're in, get back in force in Afganistan, and
put more pressure on Pakistan to do the right thing. After we fix the
first two problems, then yes we should attack the "safe-zone" in
Pakistan if that country is unwilling or unable to get rid of the
vermin themselves.





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Does admiting that you lied
 

In article . com,
Joe wrote:
OK you strive to do right, and they killed your kid because you were
not able to make them talk.. Was that right? Evil won. You lost...
over...no second chance.

No, it isn't right, but the alternative is worse from a macro
perspective. It's easy to get emotional and angry. It's hard to look
at the big picture when confronted by evil.

We should all strive to do good and right Jon.

Now, you make the guy talk, and you dont kill him, or even have to get
physical and he talks and your child lives a long and happy life.. You
won...he goes to prison. Yeah!!!!

Sounds good to me. I have no problem with this.

You can not turn the other cheek with these people Jon, you can not
barter, or buy them it's been public for many yrs the 25million dollar
reward for Ossama. They were a large well formed well funded terrorist
group .. Now the big wigs are in Gitmo.....

Never claimed we should turn the other cheek. I'm not Jesus. We should
be aggressive but also be smart about it.

You act as if the USA swooped up poor John Doe put bamboo under his
finger nails, tore out his tounge and tossed him out of a helo to make
the other talk.

??

At war the bomb is ticking and exploding every day, it's fact these
guys were going to attack LA in 2002.

So? That still doesn't justify torture.

I think the upmost caution is used, and the list is a mile long, and
the DNA is there, and film, photos, fingerprints, paper trails,
internet trails, phone trails, even the licene plate on the last camel
they rode.

Except for all the exceptions... torture in Abu Ghraib and possibly in
Gitmo... etc., etc...

What follows is a very slippery slope, leading to the
abridgement of everything we hold to be right.

Perhpas youd be happier if give up now, and crap on what our fore
father spent 200 plus years fighting for so we can all be gentleman to
jihad radical muslims out to murder us infidels.

??

I agree, but we did some very rough questioning on the battle fields I
assure you.

Still not torture. So, no argument.

where some of the perpetrators of horrible acts
certainly deserved it, although there were some individuals who did
I'm sure. What they did, and what has happened recently (much
publicized) is illegal, and those who do it should be expelled from
their positions and sent to prison.

Uhh we did that Jon, just the other day with the yahoo's in Iraq.

Now we need to get rid of the leaders that condoned it... starting
with Rumsfeld.

And do we disclose where we were keeping them, give them due process?

Everyone deserves due process.

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.
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In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:33:03 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

If we weren't bogged down in Iraq, yes.

If pigs had wings they'd fly. But I haven't seen many flying pigs recently.

So, I guess you do think then that we are bogged down in Iraq. What do
you think we should do about it?



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On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:04:41 -0700, Joe wrote:


War crimes are delt with by military tribunals, don't like it...don't
attack Americans and start a war, and get captured.


Brigadier General James Walker, the top uniformed lawyer for the Marines,
said no civilized country should deny a defendant the right to see the
evidence against him, and that the United States "should not be the
first."



From:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/...0908detain.php