Does admiting that you lied
 

DSK wrote:
Joe wrote:
When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.



Are you saying that holding prisoners with no hearing & no
trial is justified? When does it end? On whom would it be
unjustified?

Tell me Doug, During WWII did we capture nazi's and question them to
find out what they were up to? Did we give every prisioner a trail and
a lawyer?

What if we captured key Jap, or Nazi Generals? Did we give them
trials, lawers ect during the war?


Are you saying that torture is good and that the U.S. should
practice it freely? Where does *that* end, and on whom would
it be unjustified?

I never said that....you did. Are you saying we should go back to pre
9-11 days and muzzle the CIA, FBI, DEA, Army, Navy, ect.ect.ect with so
much red tape they are usless and miss preventing another 9-11 type of
mass murder?

Oh did you hear some iraqi terrorist blew himself up today at a gas
station killing many Iraqi Police officers and citizens getting
gasoline. What kind of people vaporize themselfs to murder cops trying
to establish law and order? How should we find out who is planning and
sending out suicide bombers?


Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?

No..you are. I'm happy sumballs like the 14 the CIA turned over to the
military ratted out on all thier "mates" and or intellienge agency was
effective in preventing more mass murder of office workers.

I'm FN thrilled these ****balls are going to get exactly what they
deserve, and I know it will be a 1000 times more humain and justified
then any act these cowards have pulled off.

BTW who said anyone was tortured? The president said they were not
tortured.

Joe

DSK

Does admiting that you lied
 

Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

So, you won't complain when Americans get disappeared in transit
through someone's country, then? Just answer yes or no.

What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

I've been to LA. Like I'd care.....personally if they blew LAX off the
face of the planet, along with the people who work there and their
bosses, they'd be doing the rest of the USA a big favour.

Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

Nah, not me, I'm a '**** happens' kind of guy. There's no way of
preventing everything and only a spoilt mommys boy would think so.
Oops, that's the majority of US citizens these days judging by the
whining that everything, everywhere, is someone else's fault.

These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

So, it's OK to disappear & interrogate people without any sanction,
Joe? I just want to be clear on this. Never mind the justifications,
people can always find justifications for anything they want to do.
Never mind if it's technically legal or not, laws can be changed or
ignored.

Are you happy with your leaders kidnapping people, squirrelling them
away, holding them without trial and interrogating them without any
oversight? Are you also happy that this is the revised rule of conduct
in general, and that it also applies to US citizens?

Bet you answer yes to the first bit and no to the second. Assuming
you've got the intellectual honesty to answer at all, which I doubt.

Better hope the North Koreans don't figure out a way of applying your
policy. There's a lot of interesting entellectual property in peoples'
heads, and when you come down to it, the definition of 'strategic
interest' is very flexible, as is defence against attack. You guys have
proven you haven't got what it takes to tackle Iran & North Korea head
on now and it sure is in both places' interest to get nuclear weapons
to defend themselves in case you change your mind. So, from their POV,
kidnapping & interrogating anyone anywhere that can help them do it is
just self defence, right?

Same logic as preventing bombing LA. You won't admit it, but it is.
Welcome to the revised world, where anything goes. Makes me glad I'm
not in the northern hemisphere these days.

I've ignored the moral issues, because you've demonstrated that you
have no concept of the principles involved. Keep in mind tho, that
without a sound moral basis for action, eventually pragmatism fails.

PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Peter wrote:
Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

So, you won't complain when Americans get disappeared in transit
through someone's country, then? Just answer yes or no.

If they have a terrorist rap sheet 3 pages long, and are plotting
murder...I will not care.


What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

I've been to LA. Like I'd care.....personally if they blew LAX off the
face of the planet, along with the people who work there and their
bosses, they'd be doing the rest of the USA a big favour.

Your still mad about that cavity search?


Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

Nah, not me, I'm a '**** happens' kind of guy. There's no way of
preventing everything and only a spoilt mommys boy would think so.
Oops, that's the majority of US citizens these days judging by the
whining that everything, everywhere, is someone else's fault.

No, you are whining, we do not give a ****, you don't pay our bills.
We will deal with the terrorist, as we fell fit.


These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

So, it's OK to disappear & interrogate people without any sanction,
Joe? I just want to be clear on this. Never mind the justifications,
people can always find justifications for anything they want to do.
Never mind if it's technically legal or not, laws can be changed or
ignored.

No people can not always find justification.

We are at war, Tell me Peter, During WWII did we capture nazi's and
question them to
find out what they were up to? Did we give every prisioner a trail and
a lawyer?

What if we captured key Jap, or Nazi Generals? Did we give them
trials, lawers ect during the war?



Are you saying we should go back to pre
9-11 days and muzzle the CIA, FBI, DEA, Army, Navy, ect.ect.ect with so

much red tape they are usless and miss preventing another 9-11 type of
mass murder?


Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?




Are you happy with your leaders kidnapping people, squirrelling them
away, holding them without trial and interrogating them without any
oversight? Are you also happy that this is the revised rule of conduct
in general, and that it also applies to US citizens?

They are not people IMO, they are mass murders, make a difference to
me, I could give a rats ass what you think. The evidence is out there
on all 14 captives.

Bet you answer yes to the first bit and no to the second. Assuming
you've got the intellectual honesty to answer at all, which I doubt.




Better hope the North Koreans don't figure out a way of applying your
policy. There's a lot of interesting entellectual property in peoples'
heads, and when you come down to it, the definition of 'strategic
interest' is very flexible, as is defence against attack. You guys have
proven you haven't got what it takes to tackle Iran & North Korea head
on now and it sure is in both places' interest to get nuclear weapons
to defend themselves in case you change your mind. So, from their POV,
kidnapping & interrogating anyone anywhere that can help them do it is
just self defence, right?

What ever Peter, you do not have a clue, amazing how fast people like
you forget the 100's of people diving head first out of burning sky
scrapers, and how willing you are to see "LAX" blown off the face of
the earth as long as it does not effect your ability to come here and
make money.

Same logic as preventing bombing LA. You won't admit it, but it is.
Welcome to the revised world, where anything goes. Makes me glad I'm
not in the northern hemisphere these days.

Thats two of us.

http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg, because you've demonstrated that you
have no concept of the principles involved. Keep in mind tho, that
without a sound moral basis for action, eventually pragmatism fails.

Oh did you hear some iraqi terrorist blew himself up today at a gas
station killing many Iraqi Police officers and citizens getting
gasoline. What kind of people vaporize themselfs to murder cops trying
to establish law and order? How should we find out who is planning and

sending out suicide bombers?

Pay Greenbacks? Camel Cash? Begg them purdy please?

Answer the questions...Oh I forgot, you could care less if another
major American city gets attacked and mass murder happens..You said
that right? I just wan't to be clear.

When you said "I've ignored the moral issues" that pretty much sums it
up.

Here is the moral issue...take a look.
http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg

Joe


PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

So, you won't complain when Americans get disappeared in transit
through someone's country, then? Just answer yes or no.

If they have a terrorist rap sheet 3 pages long, and are plotting
murder...I will not care.

Right, so you're happy that kidnap is a legitiate means. Fine. Like I
said, when it starts happening to yours, don't complain. The issue of a
'rap sheet' is a furphy. You can define anyone as in violation of
anything if you want to.

What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

I've been to LA. Like I'd care.....personally if they blew LAX off the
face of the planet, along with the people who work there and their
bosses, they'd be doing the rest of the USA a big favour.

Your still mad about that cavity search?

Never happened, your fantasies are ruling your thoughts. FWIW I
finished working for my US employer the week before 9/11 happened & was
back in Australia. I haven't been back to the USA since and have no
plans to do so. You guys have taken paranoia to a new low. I'm going to
Vancouver next time, most likely. After all I'm skilled in firearms &
explosives, I don't want to end up in one of your secret jails.

Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

Nah, not me, I'm a '**** happens' kind of guy. There's no way of
preventing everything and only a spoilt mommys boy would think so.
Oops, that's the majority of US citizens these days judging by the
whining that everything, everywhere, is someone else's fault.

No, you are whining, we do not give a ****, you don't pay our bills.
We will deal with the terrorist, as we fell fit.

No doubt. That's not the point. The point *is*, once *again*, that if
you decide that someone is a terrorist because of something they
*might* do, and if this justifies kidnapping, secret detention and God
alone knows what else, you are legitimising those same things to be
done to you & yours.

What part of this can't you understand?



These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

If the world knows it, why do you need to hide them away? BTW what
happened to that Canadian citizen your 'infallible' people kidnapped in
transit, shipped off to Egypt IIRC, then returned 6 months later? Was
he 'pure Evil'? Oooops, wrong guy. So much for getting the pure evil
ones.......


So, it's OK to disappear & interrogate people without any sanction,
Joe? I just want to be clear on this. Never mind the justifications,
people can always find justifications for anything they want to do.
Never mind if it's technically legal or not, laws can be changed or
ignored.

No people can not always find justification.

You seem to be doing a good job.


We are at war,

No we are NOT. We are dealing with a small amount of nutcases who have
the ability to inflict one hell of a lot of fear & loathing on people.
They aren't doing any serious damage.

Tell me Peter, During WWII did we capture nazi's and
question them to
find out what they were up to? Did we give every prisioner a trail and
a lawyer?

What if we captured key Jap, or Nazi Generals? Did we give them
trials, lawers ect during the war?

Dunno, Joe, I wasn't alive. They either got shoved into a POW camp or
got a bullet somewhere unrecorded by history.

What happened to Hess? Oh yeah that was the Brits.

Are you saying we should go back to pre
9-11 days and muzzle the CIA, FBI, DEA, Army, Navy, ect.ect.ect with so
much red tape they are usless and miss preventing another 9-11 type of
mass murder?

ROFL. Hey Joe, *who* is still searching middle aged Caucasian females
from allied countries because you can't profile people and target your
resources?

Who is hassling people in California for growing weed for their own
use?

When you guys *stop* engaging in such stupidity, ask me the question
again.

What's your percentage of containers crossing the docks being searched
these days? How about the percentage of people illegally crossing your
southern border?

Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?

What, no answer?

Are you happy with your leaders kidnapping people, squirrelling them
away, holding them without trial and interrogating them without any
oversight? Are you also happy that this is the revised rule of conduct
in general, and that it also applies to US citizens?

They are not people IMO, they are mass murders, make a difference to
me, I could give a rats ass what you think. The evidence is out there
on all 14 captives.

So, is that a yes, then? Seems like a yes with some attempt at
justification. Told you I wasn't interested in your justification, just
if you were ok with this or not.

Joe, you can define people to be whatever you want to justify whatever
you want. To the nutcases in Iran (note, NOT Iraq) we in the Western
world are the Great Satan. Therefore, anything done to us is fine. To
you, they're not people, they're mass murderers, so anything you do to
them is fine. See the point?

Bet you answer yes to the first bit and no to the second. Assuming
you've got the intellectual honesty to answer at all, which I doubt.

........ and I was right.

Better hope the North Koreans don't figure out a way of applying your
policy. There's a lot of interesting entellectual property in peoples'
heads, and when you come down to it, the definition of 'strategic
interest' is very flexible, as is defence against attack. You guys have
proven you haven't got what it takes to tackle Iran & North Korea head
on now and it sure is in both places' interest to get nuclear weapons
to defend themselves in case you change your mind. So, from their POV,
kidnapping & interrogating anyone anywhere that can help them do it is
just self defence, right?

What ever Peter, you do not have a clue, amazing how fast people like
you forget the 100's of people diving head first out of burning sky
scrapers, and how willing you are to see "LAX" blown off the face of
the earth as long as it does not effect your ability to come here and
make money.

Smirk. I transferred IP *to* my US employer in exchange for my salary.
It was a good job & a good company, but I made far more money doing
other things in other places & times. It was an interesting project. I
keep in touch & my ex boss recently told me that it's a successful
commercial product. Guess it depends on your POV as to whether I made
money from it or they did. Truth is, both did. Sorry about that.

I haven't forgotten the images I saw on TV & in the paper that day. I
sat in stunned disbelief and started writing/contacting my US friends.
I don't want to see LAX blown off the planet. Bulldozing it & building
something new would do. Guess you can't understand that, sorry.

What you can't grasp is that the WTC isn't a free pass to do anything
you want, to anyone you want, now and ad infinitum. You've already
invaded Afghanistan & Iraq. One was a winner, the other was - something
else.

What you can't seem to grasp is, if you do it to others, you're setting
yourself up for others doing it to you. This has nothing to do with
morality, it's straight sense. What goes around, comes around. If US
businesspeople, engineers & techs disappear to help North Korea defend
itself against the enemy, they're playing by your rules. You claim the
right to define who is & isn't a danger to the State. Well, so can
other people. You claim the right to lock away dangerous people without
trial & oversight. So did the USSR.

What you're saying Joe, is that you don't have sufficient faith in the
strength of your own society that it can win without becoming what you
claim to despise.

Admit it, Joe. You think the USA should be able to grab anyone they
think is a danger, anywhere. You're happy about that. And if you get it
wrong occasionally, shrug. It's in the greater good and they're only
foreign scum anyway. Just like North Korea, the old USSR, every other
place you define as antithetical to your values.

But you squeal like a stuck pig if it happens *to* you. You need to
ditch that hypocrisy, boy.

Same logic as preventing bombing LA. You won't admit it, but it is.
Welcome to the revised world, where anything goes. Makes me glad I'm
not in the northern hemisphere these days.

Thats two of us.

http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg, because you've demonstrated that you
have no concept of the principles involved. Keep in mind tho, that
without a sound moral basis for action, eventually pragmatism fails.

Oh did you hear some iraqi terrorist blew himself up today at a gas
station killing many Iraqi Police officers and citizens getting
gasoline. What kind of people vaporize themselfs to murder cops trying
to establish law and order?

Nutcases. Ones that are prepared to die in order to inflict damage.
Probably the hardest thing to defend against.

How should we find out who is planning and

sending out suicide bombers?

I have no idea except to follow the money. But you keep missing the
point - I'm a pragmatist. I judge things by whether they have been
shown to work or are likely to work. The Israelis haven't managed to
stop suicide bombings. They're building a wall to keep people out. You
guys screen people without regard for their background so as to avoid
profiling. Who's serious?

Pay Greenbacks? Camel Cash? Begg them purdy please?

The usual methods are bribery, infiltration, assassination, electronic
warfare..... I don't know all the details and it isn't my field.

Answer the questions...Oh I forgot, you could care less if another
major American city gets attacked and mass murder happens..You said
that right? I just wan't to be clear.

Look, Joe - it's pretty well known who's ultimately responsible for
this crap. It's the people with money in Iran, Syria, some of Saudi,
Pakistan. Afghanistan is making a comeback. Follow the money.
Assassinate the paymasters. Capture, try & execute people who attempt
to blow up other people, or shoot them in the field if caught in the
act. I don't have a problem with any of that. At the moment the people
with the money can fund terrorist activitied with impunity. Where's
Ronald Reagan when you need him? He'd have sent a flight of heavy
bombers visiting Tehran & Amman by now.

You mentioned the DEA earlier. What a joke. If you guys run the War on
Terror the same way as the War on Drugs, in 20 years you'll have more
people chasing terrorists, less civil rights and no less terrorists.
Great.

When you said "I've ignored the moral issues" that pretty much sums it
up.

Yep. You don't understand the big picture. You don't understand that if
you kidnap people, other people will kidnap yours. You don't understand
that it isn't even necessary. In short, you don't understand, because
you don't think. You just emote.

Here is the moral issue...take a look.
http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg

Seen it before. Like the pix of the survivors after the Bali bombing.
Like the pix of Vietnam with children melting from US napalm. Like a
lot of other pix of death & destruction.

In the scheme of things, it doesn't even rate.

Deaths off of the CDC Web site for 2003:

Firearms : 30,136 from a pop'n of 290,810,789
Transportation : 47,603
Adverse effects : 2,855
Terrorism: 0

Get a grip on reality. I don't give a rat's ass for the continued
survival of any of the sources of terrorists. I think we'll keep right
on doing pretty much nothing while 'useful fools' like you (to quote an
old Soviet era phrase) support actions that make little difference
while ignoring the bigger issues. Personally, I think we (the West)
*should* change the rules, but we should do it openly and with crystal
clarity, not hide it all away like your clowns have done. We should
hold states responsible for the actions of people trained & financed by
them, and declare a policy of assassination as a graduated step towards
heavier levels of hostility. ATM we all do nothing short of telling
them they're a bad boy in the UN and dropping bombs on them. Sanctions
are a joke as Iraq showed. Place a $1,000,000 USD bounty on the head of
everyone above Major, for example, in Syria, at one for one, each
terrorist victim in the West. Ditto for Iran. If that wasn't working,
same for people working in finance, engineering. Might work, cheaper
than what's happening now, and where's the downside. They're already
trying to kill us off at random.

Point is, if you do something like that, don't bitch when it's done
back again. Cost of doing business.

Meanwhile I'm out of here. Places to go, people to see, machinery to
buy then it's off to 55 S for a bit. Have fun and, Joe - don't get on
the wrong side of your own Govt. You might end up in a secret prison
somewhere....and never come out.

PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Peter wrote:
.. Follow the money.
Assassinate the paymasters. Capture, try & execute people who attempt
to blow up other people, or shoot them in the field if caught in the
act. I don't have a problem with any of that.

PDW

Got ya..assassinating would be much cleaner, and we would not to have
to have a bunch of panty waste liberal boo FN hooin wussies whining
about questioning murderers before we put them on trial...

Ohhh Boy, Peter state sponsered assassination is illegal. Who decides
who to assassinate ?

BTW we have captured, and we will execute the people found guilty in a
trial, or lock them away for the rest of their lives, thats what your
bitching about remember?

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/imag...i-triangle.jpg

"Charlie Morgan" wrote

You will be the first to be outraged by treatment accorded our own
soldiers when
they are captured.

Guess what? When we torture and mistreat prisoners, it doesn't matter who
they
are, or what we think of them. It simply means that from that day forward,
our
own soldiers will face the same, and we won't have a leg to stand on. Not
just
for a year or two, but for always. We are NOT protecting our citizens, or
our
brave troops by doing this. We are making all of them LESS SAFE now and in
the
future.

CWM

Does admiting that you lied
 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Does admiting that you lied
 

Bart Senior wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

They dont give a **** Bart.. All they want to do is pamper the
terrorist, and dis-credit the USA.

Some stupid MF even said capturing and questioning the mass murders
will make or troops more prone to be tortured..

All our troops have seen what they will do.
Do you think they are worried it's going to be more dangerious to be
captured then before they chopped off head and burned people?

I'm of the opinion that it will be impossiable to treat our captured
people any worse.

Remember they bured, chopped, stomped, hacked, spit on, then hung our
troops well before theses asshole were captured and questioned by the
CIA.

Peter claims moral issues like that do not matter, he's a gentle man.

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 06:18:31 -0700, Joe wrote:


BTW we have captured, and we will execute the people found guilty in a
trial, or lock them away for the rest of their lives, thats what your
bitching about remember?

Don't be so sure. This administrations handling of these prisoners may
preclude any finding of guilt. While they are trying very hard to
overcome those pesky V & VI Amendments, let's pray they fail. "Secret
evidence", coerced evidence, and retroactive authorizing interrogation
tactics have yet to become the American way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090701456.html

Does admiting that you lied
 

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 06:18:31 -0700, Joe wrote:


BTW we have captured, and we will execute the people found guilty in a
trial, or lock them away for the rest of their lives, thats what your
bitching about remember?

Don't be so sure. This administrations handling of these prisoners may
preclude any finding of guilt. While they are trying very hard to
overcome those pesky V & VI Amendments, let's pray they fail. "Secret
evidence", coerced evidence, and retroactive authorizing interrogation
tactics have yet to become the American way.

The V says...(not that it applies to war & terrorist without countries)
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in
actual service in time of War or public danger; "

Both amendments are for citizens of America, for the people who fought
and died for thoses rights, they are not for captured terrorists or war
combatants. They do not even deserve the right afforded by the geneva
convention, as the are fanatical jihad dogs without a country.

War crimes are delt with by military tribunals, don't like it...don't
attack Americans and start a war, and get captured.

Joe



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090701456.html