Does admiting that you lied
 

OzOne wrote:
Repeatedly......make it better?
http://tinyurl.com/hx2w8


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Did you know the CIA due to the direct work they did, kept the tallest
building in LosAngles from getting attacked 911 style?

Do you think anyone should give a **** bout this group of murdering
jihad physcos?

I do not think they deserve any trials. They are terrorist that no
country claims or wants therefore they are not accorded any the rights
set forth at the geneva convention for POW's.

It's like capturing pirates in the middle of the ocean, the only law
that applys is between the combatants.... It's up to the captor to
decide what to do with such scum....I'd make em talk then i'd make most
of em walk the plank, or give them a death equal to the deaths of the
people they murdered or helped murder.

If your going to be a terrorist and be involved in mass murder of
citizens then you best understand you have no protective rights at all.


If it means protecting the lives of Americans(or any civilized person
on earth) from murdering head chopping frenzied ****bags fanatics I'd
lie like a rug.

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

OzOne wrote in message
...
Ahhh yeah, I keep forgetting that American lives are worth
3 or is it
4 or everyone elses.


10

Does admiting that you lied
 

OzOne wrote
Ahhh yeah, I keep forgetting that American lives are worth
3 or is it
4 or everyone elses.


Scotty wrote:
10


Is that enough?

We killed about 60 Vietnamese for every American in that
war, and it didn't stop them... it was just barely enough to
convince them to give us a little breathing room to declare
victory and go home.

In order to win very convincingly... convincingly enough
that none will dare attack us... I would be willing to kill
100:1 or more, but of course it only works if you kill the
right people. Invading a country that was not involved in
any way with the attacks is not going to accomplish much no
matter how many of it's people you kill.

I am opposed to torture no matter who does it to whom.
Torture is inherently evil. The act of torture corrupts the
torturer and I do not want my gov't involved in it. I also
find it extremely bizarre that an administration which calls
itself "conservative" and claims higher moral standards will
defend it's torturing of people it will not even identify or
bring charges against.

DSK

Does admiting that you lied
 

OzOne wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:37:36 -0400, "Scotty"

scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
.. .
Ahhh yeah, I keep forgetting that American lives are
worth
3 or is it
4 or everyone elses.


10

We're both wrong...

2000 on 9/11
46,000 Iraqis


Oh, I thought you were comparing to Ozzies, Iraqis aren't
even on the list.

Scooter

Does admiting that you lied
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
OzOne wrote
Ahhh yeah, I keep forgetting that American lives are
worth
3 or is it
4 or everyone elses.


Scotty wrote:
10


Is that enough?

We killed about 60 Vietnamese for every American in that
war, and it didn't stop them... it was just barely enough
to
convince them to give us a little breathing room to
declare
victory and go home.


yeah, but if you go pound for pound......

Does admiting that you lied
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 16:20:42 -0700, "Joe" wrote:


OzOne wrote:
Repeatedly......make it better?
http://tinyurl.com/hx2w8


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Did you know the CIA due to the direct work they did, kept the tallest
building in LosAngles from getting attacked 911 style?

Do you think anyone should give a **** bout this group of murdering
jihad physcos?

I do not think they deserve any trials. They are terrorist that no
country claims or wants therefore they are not accorded any the rights
set forth at the geneva convention for POW's.

It's like capturing pirates in the middle of the ocean, the only law
that applys is between the combatants.... It's up to the captor to
decide what to do with such scum....I'd make em talk then i'd make most
of em walk the plank, or give them a death equal to the deaths of the
people they murdered or helped murder.

If your going to be a terrorist and be involved in mass murder of
citizens then you best understand you have no protective rights at all.


If it means protecting the lives of Americans(or any civilized person
on earth) from murdering head chopping frenzied ****bags fanatics I'd
lie like a rug.

Joe

You will be the first to be outraged by treatment accorded our own soldiers when
they are captured.

Guess what? When we torture and mistreat prisoners, it doesn't matter who they
are, or what we think of them.

Or you dumber than **** or what? Have you not seen the soldiers hanging
from the bridge burning? All the radical jihad snuff flicks? Suicide
bombings and mass murder? You do not reason with rabid dogs or
murdering terrorist, both will exploit what they view as a weekness.


It simply means that from that day forward, our
own soldiers will face the same, and we won't have a leg to stand on. Not just
for a year or two, but for always. We are NOT protecting our citizens, or our
brave troops by doing this. We are making all of them LESS SAFE now and in the
future.

Oh yeah we are less safe with the mastermind of the 911 plot wetting
his pants and finking on all his troops and friends and every plan for
mass murder un-covered and foiled . Yeah right. Hey numbnuts..our
troops know not to get captured, they have seen how the jihad fanatics
treat prisioners.

Joe



CWM

Does admiting that you lied
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 16:20:42 -0700, "Joe" wrote:


OzOne wrote:
Repeatedly......make it better?
http://tinyurl.com/hx2w8


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Did you know the CIA due to the direct work they did, kept the tallest
building in LosAngles from getting attacked 911 style?

Do you think anyone should give a **** bout this group of murdering
jihad physcos?

I do not think they deserve any trials. They are terrorist that no
country claims or wants therefore they are not accorded any the rights
set forth at the geneva convention for POW's.

It's like capturing pirates in the middle of the ocean, the only law
that applys is between the combatants.... It's up to the captor to
decide what to do with such scum....I'd make em talk then i'd make most
of em walk the plank, or give them a death equal to the deaths of the
people they murdered or helped murder.

If your going to be a terrorist and be involved in mass murder of
citizens then you best understand you have no protective rights at all.


If it means protecting the lives of Americans(or any civilized person
on earth) from murdering head chopping frenzied ****bags fanatics I'd
lie like a rug.

Joe

You will be the first to be outraged by treatment accorded our own soldiers when
they are captured.

Guess what? When we torture and mistreat prisoners, it doesn't matter who they
are, or what we think of them. It simply means that from that day forward, our
own soldiers will face the same, and we won't have a leg to stand on. Not just
for a year or two, but for always. We are NOT protecting our citizens, or our
brave troops by doing this. We are making all of them LESS SAFE now and in the
future.

Chrrlie, I really hate it when I have to agree with a dickhead like
you.

Joe, you're not thinking it through. What goes around, comes around.
The various conventions (Geneva et al) were designed to protect *your*
guys as much as the other guys. Remember WW2? Japan wasn't a signatory,
Germany was. Can't recall about the USSR. Japan treated POW's as
slaves, arbitrarily tortured them, shot them, worked them to death,
used them for medical experiments. They hadn't signed any Convention &
agreed they wouldn't.

You want your country to do the same things? Or, like Japan in WW2, do
you think it won't matter because you'll never lose and therefore never
be accountable for illegal & immoral actions?

Bob Brownell in one of his books has the comment that you don't act
like a gentleman because your competition acts like a gentleman. You
act like one because you *are* one. Same with morality, Joe. I guess
you don't get it, because you haven't got it. When US soldiers get
kidnapped, tortured & disappear forever, don't get outraged about it.
When US citizens in transit through an airport somewhere disappear
without trace to someone's secret jail for interrogation, don't bother
complaining about that, either. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Peter wrote:
.. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

If it happened....

Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

Joe


PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

OzOne wrote:
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:36:23 -0400, Charlie Morgan
scribbled thusly:



You will be the first to be outraged by treatment accorded our own soldiers when
they are captured.

Guess what? When we torture and mistreat prisoners, it doesn't matter who they
are, or what we think of them. It simply means that from that day forward, our
own soldiers will face the same, and we won't have a leg to stand on. Not just
for a year or two, but for always. We are NOT protecting our citizens, or our
brave troops by doing this. We are making all of them LESS SAFE now and in the
future.

CWM


Yep, and now Bush has admitted being the same as 'them' so the
floodgates are opened and it's not a matter of 'who started it'


On no...Not another Bush planned the attacks on 911 story...

Joe



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Does admiting that you lied
 

Joe wrote:
When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.


Are you saying that holding prisoners with no hearing & no
trial is justified? When does it end? On whom would it be
unjustified?

Are you saying that torture is good and that the U.S. should
practice it freely? Where does *that* end, and on whom would
it be unjustified?

Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?

DSK

Does admiting that you lied
 

DSK wrote:
Joe wrote:
When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.



Are you saying that holding prisoners with no hearing & no
trial is justified? When does it end? On whom would it be
unjustified?

Tell me Doug, During WWII did we capture nazi's and question them to
find out what they were up to? Did we give every prisioner a trail and
a lawyer?

What if we captured key Jap, or Nazi Generals? Did we give them
trials, lawers ect during the war?


Are you saying that torture is good and that the U.S. should
practice it freely? Where does *that* end, and on whom would
it be unjustified?

I never said that....you did. Are you saying we should go back to pre
9-11 days and muzzle the CIA, FBI, DEA, Army, Navy, ect.ect.ect with so
much red tape they are usless and miss preventing another 9-11 type of
mass murder?

Oh did you hear some iraqi terrorist blew himself up today at a gas
station killing many Iraqi Police officers and citizens getting
gasoline. What kind of people vaporize themselfs to murder cops trying
to establish law and order? How should we find out who is planning and
sending out suicide bombers?


Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?

No..you are. I'm happy sumballs like the 14 the CIA turned over to the
military ratted out on all thier "mates" and or intellienge agency was
effective in preventing more mass murder of office workers.

I'm FN thrilled these ****balls are going to get exactly what they
deserve, and I know it will be a 1000 times more humain and justified
then any act these cowards have pulled off.

BTW who said anyone was tortured? The president said they were not
tortured.

Joe

DSK

Does admiting that you lied
 

Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

So, you won't complain when Americans get disappeared in transit
through someone's country, then? Just answer yes or no.

What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

I've been to LA. Like I'd care.....personally if they blew LAX off the
face of the planet, along with the people who work there and their
bosses, they'd be doing the rest of the USA a big favour.

Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

Nah, not me, I'm a '**** happens' kind of guy. There's no way of
preventing everything and only a spoilt mommys boy would think so.
Oops, that's the majority of US citizens these days judging by the
whining that everything, everywhere, is someone else's fault.

These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

So, it's OK to disappear & interrogate people without any sanction,
Joe? I just want to be clear on this. Never mind the justifications,
people can always find justifications for anything they want to do.
Never mind if it's technically legal or not, laws can be changed or
ignored.

Are you happy with your leaders kidnapping people, squirrelling them
away, holding them without trial and interrogating them without any
oversight? Are you also happy that this is the revised rule of conduct
in general, and that it also applies to US citizens?

Bet you answer yes to the first bit and no to the second. Assuming
you've got the intellectual honesty to answer at all, which I doubt.

Better hope the North Koreans don't figure out a way of applying your
policy. There's a lot of interesting entellectual property in peoples'
heads, and when you come down to it, the definition of 'strategic
interest' is very flexible, as is defence against attack. You guys have
proven you haven't got what it takes to tackle Iran & North Korea head
on now and it sure is in both places' interest to get nuclear weapons
to defend themselves in case you change your mind. So, from their POV,
kidnapping & interrogating anyone anywhere that can help them do it is
just self defence, right?

Same logic as preventing bombing LA. You won't admit it, but it is.
Welcome to the revised world, where anything goes. Makes me glad I'm
not in the northern hemisphere these days.

I've ignored the moral issues, because you've demonstrated that you
have no concept of the principles involved. Keep in mind tho, that
without a sound moral basis for action, eventually pragmatism fails.

PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Peter wrote:
Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

So, you won't complain when Americans get disappeared in transit
through someone's country, then? Just answer yes or no.

If they have a terrorist rap sheet 3 pages long, and are plotting
murder...I will not care.


What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

I've been to LA. Like I'd care.....personally if they blew LAX off the
face of the planet, along with the people who work there and their
bosses, they'd be doing the rest of the USA a big favour.

Your still mad about that cavity search?


Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

Nah, not me, I'm a '**** happens' kind of guy. There's no way of
preventing everything and only a spoilt mommys boy would think so.
Oops, that's the majority of US citizens these days judging by the
whining that everything, everywhere, is someone else's fault.

No, you are whining, we do not give a ****, you don't pay our bills.
We will deal with the terrorist, as we fell fit.


These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

So, it's OK to disappear & interrogate people without any sanction,
Joe? I just want to be clear on this. Never mind the justifications,
people can always find justifications for anything they want to do.
Never mind if it's technically legal or not, laws can be changed or
ignored.

No people can not always find justification.

We are at war, Tell me Peter, During WWII did we capture nazi's and
question them to
find out what they were up to? Did we give every prisioner a trail and
a lawyer?

What if we captured key Jap, or Nazi Generals? Did we give them
trials, lawers ect during the war?



Are you saying we should go back to pre
9-11 days and muzzle the CIA, FBI, DEA, Army, Navy, ect.ect.ect with so

much red tape they are usless and miss preventing another 9-11 type of
mass murder?


Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?




Are you happy with your leaders kidnapping people, squirrelling them
away, holding them without trial and interrogating them without any
oversight? Are you also happy that this is the revised rule of conduct
in general, and that it also applies to US citizens?

They are not people IMO, they are mass murders, make a difference to
me, I could give a rats ass what you think. The evidence is out there
on all 14 captives.

Bet you answer yes to the first bit and no to the second. Assuming
you've got the intellectual honesty to answer at all, which I doubt.




Better hope the North Koreans don't figure out a way of applying your
policy. There's a lot of interesting entellectual property in peoples'
heads, and when you come down to it, the definition of 'strategic
interest' is very flexible, as is defence against attack. You guys have
proven you haven't got what it takes to tackle Iran & North Korea head
on now and it sure is in both places' interest to get nuclear weapons
to defend themselves in case you change your mind. So, from their POV,
kidnapping & interrogating anyone anywhere that can help them do it is
just self defence, right?

What ever Peter, you do not have a clue, amazing how fast people like
you forget the 100's of people diving head first out of burning sky
scrapers, and how willing you are to see "LAX" blown off the face of
the earth as long as it does not effect your ability to come here and
make money.

Same logic as preventing bombing LA. You won't admit it, but it is.
Welcome to the revised world, where anything goes. Makes me glad I'm
not in the northern hemisphere these days.

Thats two of us.

http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg, because you've demonstrated that you
have no concept of the principles involved. Keep in mind tho, that
without a sound moral basis for action, eventually pragmatism fails.

Oh did you hear some iraqi terrorist blew himself up today at a gas
station killing many Iraqi Police officers and citizens getting
gasoline. What kind of people vaporize themselfs to murder cops trying
to establish law and order? How should we find out who is planning and

sending out suicide bombers?

Pay Greenbacks? Camel Cash? Begg them purdy please?

Answer the questions...Oh I forgot, you could care less if another
major American city gets attacked and mass murder happens..You said
that right? I just wan't to be clear.

When you said "I've ignored the moral issues" that pretty much sums it
up.

Here is the moral issue...take a look.
http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg

Joe


PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
Joe wrote:
Peter wrote:
. You're setting rules of conduct that
are profoundly short sighted and *will* come back to haunt you. It's
short sighted and STUPID.

When dealing with people planning and carrying out mass murder via
suicide new tactics and rules have to be made IMO.

So, you won't complain when Americans get disappeared in transit
through someone's country, then? Just answer yes or no.

If they have a terrorist rap sheet 3 pages long, and are plotting
murder...I will not care.

Right, so you're happy that kidnap is a legitiate means. Fine. Like I
said, when it starts happening to yours, don't complain. The issue of a
'rap sheet' is a furphy. You can define anyone as in violation of
anything if you want to.

What if we did not find out of the 2002 plot to take down the tower
in LosAngles?

I've been to LA. Like I'd care.....personally if they blew LAX off the
face of the planet, along with the people who work there and their
bosses, they'd be doing the rest of the USA a big favour.

Your still mad about that cavity search?

Never happened, your fantasies are ruling your thoughts. FWIW I
finished working for my US employer the week before 9/11 happened & was
back in Australia. I haven't been back to the USA since and have no
plans to do so. You guys have taken paranoia to a new low. I'm going to
Vancouver next time, most likely. After all I'm skilled in firearms &
explosives, I don't want to end up in one of your secret jails.

Then you would be blaming Bush for not doing enough, never mind a few
more 1000 murdered Americans.

Nah, not me, I'm a '**** happens' kind of guy. There's no way of
preventing everything and only a spoilt mommys boy would think so.
Oops, that's the majority of US citizens these days judging by the
whining that everything, everywhere, is someone else's fault.

No, you are whining, we do not give a ****, you don't pay our bills.
We will deal with the terrorist, as we fell fit.

No doubt. That's not the point. The point *is*, once *again*, that if
you decide that someone is a terrorist because of something they
*might* do, and if this justifies kidnapping, secret detention and God
alone knows what else, you are legitimising those same things to be
done to you & yours.

What part of this can't you understand?



These people are pure Evil and the world knows it, we are not talking
about some naive foot soldigers.

If the world knows it, why do you need to hide them away? BTW what
happened to that Canadian citizen your 'infallible' people kidnapped in
transit, shipped off to Egypt IIRC, then returned 6 months later? Was
he 'pure Evil'? Oooops, wrong guy. So much for getting the pure evil
ones.......


So, it's OK to disappear & interrogate people without any sanction,
Joe? I just want to be clear on this. Never mind the justifications,
people can always find justifications for anything they want to do.
Never mind if it's technically legal or not, laws can be changed or
ignored.

No people can not always find justification.

You seem to be doing a good job.


We are at war,

No we are NOT. We are dealing with a small amount of nutcases who have
the ability to inflict one hell of a lot of fear & loathing on people.
They aren't doing any serious damage.

Tell me Peter, During WWII did we capture nazi's and
question them to
find out what they were up to? Did we give every prisioner a trail and
a lawyer?

What if we captured key Jap, or Nazi Generals? Did we give them
trials, lawers ect during the war?

Dunno, Joe, I wasn't alive. They either got shoved into a POW camp or
got a bullet somewhere unrecorded by history.

What happened to Hess? Oh yeah that was the Brits.

Are you saying we should go back to pre
9-11 days and muzzle the CIA, FBI, DEA, Army, Navy, ect.ect.ect with so
much red tape they are usless and miss preventing another 9-11 type of
mass murder?

ROFL. Hey Joe, *who* is still searching middle aged Caucasian females
from allied countries because you can't profile people and target your
resources?

Who is hassling people in California for growing weed for their own
use?

When you guys *stop* engaging in such stupidity, ask me the question
again.

What's your percentage of containers crossing the docks being searched
these days? How about the percentage of people illegally crossing your
southern border?

Or are you saying that you want your government to be evil?

What, no answer?

Are you happy with your leaders kidnapping people, squirrelling them
away, holding them without trial and interrogating them without any
oversight? Are you also happy that this is the revised rule of conduct
in general, and that it also applies to US citizens?

They are not people IMO, they are mass murders, make a difference to
me, I could give a rats ass what you think. The evidence is out there
on all 14 captives.

So, is that a yes, then? Seems like a yes with some attempt at
justification. Told you I wasn't interested in your justification, just
if you were ok with this or not.

Joe, you can define people to be whatever you want to justify whatever
you want. To the nutcases in Iran (note, NOT Iraq) we in the Western
world are the Great Satan. Therefore, anything done to us is fine. To
you, they're not people, they're mass murderers, so anything you do to
them is fine. See the point?

Bet you answer yes to the first bit and no to the second. Assuming
you've got the intellectual honesty to answer at all, which I doubt.

........ and I was right.

Better hope the North Koreans don't figure out a way of applying your
policy. There's a lot of interesting entellectual property in peoples'
heads, and when you come down to it, the definition of 'strategic
interest' is very flexible, as is defence against attack. You guys have
proven you haven't got what it takes to tackle Iran & North Korea head
on now and it sure is in both places' interest to get nuclear weapons
to defend themselves in case you change your mind. So, from their POV,
kidnapping & interrogating anyone anywhere that can help them do it is
just self defence, right?

What ever Peter, you do not have a clue, amazing how fast people like
you forget the 100's of people diving head first out of burning sky
scrapers, and how willing you are to see "LAX" blown off the face of
the earth as long as it does not effect your ability to come here and
make money.

Smirk. I transferred IP *to* my US employer in exchange for my salary.
It was a good job & a good company, but I made far more money doing
other things in other places & times. It was an interesting project. I
keep in touch & my ex boss recently told me that it's a successful
commercial product. Guess it depends on your POV as to whether I made
money from it or they did. Truth is, both did. Sorry about that.

I haven't forgotten the images I saw on TV & in the paper that day. I
sat in stunned disbelief and started writing/contacting my US friends.
I don't want to see LAX blown off the planet. Bulldozing it & building
something new would do. Guess you can't understand that, sorry.

What you can't grasp is that the WTC isn't a free pass to do anything
you want, to anyone you want, now and ad infinitum. You've already
invaded Afghanistan & Iraq. One was a winner, the other was - something
else.

What you can't seem to grasp is, if you do it to others, you're setting
yourself up for others doing it to you. This has nothing to do with
morality, it's straight sense. What goes around, comes around. If US
businesspeople, engineers & techs disappear to help North Korea defend
itself against the enemy, they're playing by your rules. You claim the
right to define who is & isn't a danger to the State. Well, so can
other people. You claim the right to lock away dangerous people without
trial & oversight. So did the USSR.

What you're saying Joe, is that you don't have sufficient faith in the
strength of your own society that it can win without becoming what you
claim to despise.

Admit it, Joe. You think the USA should be able to grab anyone they
think is a danger, anywhere. You're happy about that. And if you get it
wrong occasionally, shrug. It's in the greater good and they're only
foreign scum anyway. Just like North Korea, the old USSR, every other
place you define as antithetical to your values.

But you squeal like a stuck pig if it happens *to* you. You need to
ditch that hypocrisy, boy.

Same logic as preventing bombing LA. You won't admit it, but it is.
Welcome to the revised world, where anything goes. Makes me glad I'm
not in the northern hemisphere these days.

Thats two of us.

http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg, because you've demonstrated that you
have no concept of the principles involved. Keep in mind tho, that
without a sound moral basis for action, eventually pragmatism fails.

Oh did you hear some iraqi terrorist blew himself up today at a gas
station killing many Iraqi Police officers and citizens getting
gasoline. What kind of people vaporize themselfs to murder cops trying
to establish law and order?

Nutcases. Ones that are prepared to die in order to inflict damage.
Probably the hardest thing to defend against.

How should we find out who is planning and

sending out suicide bombers?

I have no idea except to follow the money. But you keep missing the
point - I'm a pragmatist. I judge things by whether they have been
shown to work or are likely to work. The Israelis haven't managed to
stop suicide bombings. They're building a wall to keep people out. You
guys screen people without regard for their background so as to avoid
profiling. Who's serious?

Pay Greenbacks? Camel Cash? Begg them purdy please?

The usual methods are bribery, infiltration, assassination, electronic
warfare..... I don't know all the details and it isn't my field.

Answer the questions...Oh I forgot, you could care less if another
major American city gets attacked and mass murder happens..You said
that right? I just wan't to be clear.

Look, Joe - it's pretty well known who's ultimately responsible for
this crap. It's the people with money in Iran, Syria, some of Saudi,
Pakistan. Afghanistan is making a comeback. Follow the money.
Assassinate the paymasters. Capture, try & execute people who attempt
to blow up other people, or shoot them in the field if caught in the
act. I don't have a problem with any of that. At the moment the people
with the money can fund terrorist activitied with impunity. Where's
Ronald Reagan when you need him? He'd have sent a flight of heavy
bombers visiting Tehran & Amman by now.

You mentioned the DEA earlier. What a joke. If you guys run the War on
Terror the same way as the War on Drugs, in 20 years you'll have more
people chasing terrorists, less civil rights and no less terrorists.
Great.

When you said "I've ignored the moral issues" that pretty much sums it
up.

Yep. You don't understand the big picture. You don't understand that if
you kidnap people, other people will kidnap yours. You don't understand
that it isn't even necessary. In short, you don't understand, because
you don't think. You just emote.

Here is the moral issue...take a look.
http://www.geocities.com/twintowersn.../wtc_jump5.jpg

Seen it before. Like the pix of the survivors after the Bali bombing.
Like the pix of Vietnam with children melting from US napalm. Like a
lot of other pix of death & destruction.

In the scheme of things, it doesn't even rate.

Deaths off of the CDC Web site for 2003:

Firearms : 30,136 from a pop'n of 290,810,789
Transportation : 47,603
Adverse effects : 2,855
Terrorism: 0

Get a grip on reality. I don't give a rat's ass for the continued
survival of any of the sources of terrorists. I think we'll keep right
on doing pretty much nothing while 'useful fools' like you (to quote an
old Soviet era phrase) support actions that make little difference
while ignoring the bigger issues. Personally, I think we (the West)
*should* change the rules, but we should do it openly and with crystal
clarity, not hide it all away like your clowns have done. We should
hold states responsible for the actions of people trained & financed by
them, and declare a policy of assassination as a graduated step towards
heavier levels of hostility. ATM we all do nothing short of telling
them they're a bad boy in the UN and dropping bombs on them. Sanctions
are a joke as Iraq showed. Place a $1,000,000 USD bounty on the head of
everyone above Major, for example, in Syria, at one for one, each
terrorist victim in the West. Ditto for Iran. If that wasn't working,
same for people working in finance, engineering. Might work, cheaper
than what's happening now, and where's the downside. They're already
trying to kill us off at random.

Point is, if you do something like that, don't bitch when it's done
back again. Cost of doing business.

Meanwhile I'm out of here. Places to go, people to see, machinery to
buy then it's off to 55 S for a bit. Have fun and, Joe - don't get on
the wrong side of your own Govt. You might end up in a secret prison
somewhere....and never come out.

PDW

Does admiting that you lied
 

Peter wrote:
.. Follow the money.
Assassinate the paymasters. Capture, try & execute people who attempt
to blow up other people, or shoot them in the field if caught in the
act. I don't have a problem with any of that.

PDW

Got ya..assassinating would be much cleaner, and we would not to have
to have a bunch of panty waste liberal boo FN hooin wussies whining
about questioning murderers before we put them on trial...

Ohhh Boy, Peter state sponsered assassination is illegal. Who decides
who to assassinate ?

BTW we have captured, and we will execute the people found guilty in a
trial, or lock them away for the rest of their lives, thats what your
bitching about remember?

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/imag...i-triangle.jpg

"Charlie Morgan" wrote

You will be the first to be outraged by treatment accorded our own
soldiers when
they are captured.

Guess what? When we torture and mistreat prisoners, it doesn't matter who
they
are, or what we think of them. It simply means that from that day forward,
our
own soldiers will face the same, and we won't have a leg to stand on. Not
just
for a year or two, but for always. We are NOT protecting our citizens, or
our
brave troops by doing this. We are making all of them LESS SAFE now and in
the
future.

CWM

Does admiting that you lied
 

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Does admiting that you lied
 

Bart Senior wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

They dont give a **** Bart.. All they want to do is pamper the
terrorist, and dis-credit the USA.

Some stupid MF even said capturing and questioning the mass murders
will make or troops more prone to be tortured..

All our troops have seen what they will do.
Do you think they are worried it's going to be more dangerious to be
captured then before they chopped off head and burned people?

I'm of the opinion that it will be impossiable to treat our captured
people any worse.

Remember they bured, chopped, stomped, hacked, spit on, then hung our
troops well before theses asshole were captured and questioned by the
CIA.

Peter claims moral issues like that do not matter, he's a gentle man.

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 06:18:31 -0700, Joe wrote:


BTW we have captured, and we will execute the people found guilty in a
trial, or lock them away for the rest of their lives, thats what your
bitching about remember?

Don't be so sure. This administrations handling of these prisoners may
preclude any finding of guilt. While they are trying very hard to
overcome those pesky V & VI Amendments, let's pray they fail. "Secret
evidence", coerced evidence, and retroactive authorizing interrogation
tactics have yet to become the American way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090701456.html

Does admiting that you lied
 

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 06:18:31 -0700, Joe wrote:


BTW we have captured, and we will execute the people found guilty in a
trial, or lock them away for the rest of their lives, thats what your
bitching about remember?

Don't be so sure. This administrations handling of these prisoners may
preclude any finding of guilt. While they are trying very hard to
overcome those pesky V & VI Amendments, let's pray they fail. "Secret
evidence", coerced evidence, and retroactive authorizing interrogation
tactics have yet to become the American way.

The V says...(not that it applies to war & terrorist without countries)
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in
actual service in time of War or public danger; "

Both amendments are for citizens of America, for the people who fought
and died for thoses rights, they are not for captured terrorists or war
combatants. They do not even deserve the right afforded by the geneva
convention, as the are fanatical jihad dogs without a country.

War crimes are delt with by military tribunals, don't like it...don't
attack Americans and start a war, and get captured.

Joe



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090701456.html

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.

What if it was your wife? And the only way to keep them from doing it
to your daughter was to find out what they were going to do next?

Would you use agressive questioning methods?

Are we at war?

Can we detain and question the enemy?

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Joe

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article . com,
Joe wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.

What if it was your wife? And the only way to keep them from doing it
to your daughter was to find out what they were going to do next?

Of course, if was my wife, daughter, or someone else near and dear to
me, I would want to use every technique I could to prevent them from
being harmed and/or smash those who did it. However, we should not be
driven by what we would like to do or want to do, but rather we should
strive to do what is right. Torture is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a
right.

It's easy to bring up the the ticking bomb scenario and use that as a
justification to torture people. The only problem is that it's rarely
necessary. And, you must be very cautious before opening that
Pandora's Box. What follows is a very slippery slope, leading to the
abridgement of everything we hold to be right.

Would you use agressive questioning methods?

Of course, and aggressive questioning is legal. Torture is not.

Are we at war?

We are. We didn't torture anyone in any previous war that I'm aware
of, including WWII, where some of the perpetrators of horrible acts
certainly deserved it, although there were some individuals who did
I'm sure. What they did, and what has happened recently (much
publicized) is illegal, and those who do it should be expelled from
their positions and sent to prison.

Can we detain and question the enemy?

We can, do, and always have done so.

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 11:36:44 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times,

You mean like that denial that there were secret prisons, which Oz and Doug
seem to have so much trouble locating?

Somebody's got a credibility problem, but I don't think it's GWB.

No, like with he said Saddam had WMDs. Like when he and Rumsfeld said
the war would be over in a few months. Like when he said major
hostilities are over. Like when he stood on that carrier under the
sign that said Mission Accomplished, and then 1500+ of our brave
soldiers died afterward. Like when he said we're going to smoke out
Bin Laden, and never again let Al-Qaeda or the Taliban establish a
safe-haven, and then we get the peace treaty between them and
Pakistan. Shall I go on, or does that answer you question.

Somebody sure does have a credibility problem, and it's definitely
Bushco.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 12:38:48 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

he said we're going to smoke out
Bin Laden, and never again let Al-Qaeda or the Taliban establish a
safe-haven, and then we get the peace treaty between them and
Pakistan.

So I take it you're advocating an invasion of Pakistan?

Yes. I think that would be a heck of lot more appropriate than
invading Iraq. They're certainly no friend of ours.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article . com,
Joe wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq...es-photos.html

Yeah, it's gruesome. In any case, that doesn't justify us torturing
others.

What if it was your wife? And the only way to keep them from doing it
to your daughter was to find out what they were going to do next?

Of course, if was my wife, daughter, or someone else near and dear to
me, I would want to use every technique I could to prevent them from
being harmed and/or smash those who did it. However, we should not be
driven by what we would like to do or want to do, but rather we should
strive to do what is right. Torture is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a
right.

OK you strive to do right, and they killed your kid because you were
not able to make them talk.. Was that right? Evil won. You lost...
over...no second chance.

We should all strive to do good and right Jon.

Now, you make the guy talk, and you dont kill him, or even have to get
physical and he talks and your child lives a long and happy life.. You
won...he goes to prison. Yeah!!!!

You can not turn the other cheek with these people Jon, you can not
barter, or buy them it's been public for many yrs the 25million dollar
reward for Ossama. They were a large well formed well funded terrorist
group .. Now the big wigs are in Gitmo.....

You act as if the USA swooped up poor John Doe put bamboo under his
finger nails, tore out his tounge and tossed him out of a helo to make
the other talk.


It's easy to bring up the the ticking bomb scenario and use that as a
justification to torture people. The only problem is that it's rarely
necessary.

At war the bomb is ticking and exploding every day, it's fact these
guys were going to attack LA in 2002.

And, you must be very cautious before opening that
Pandora's Box.

I think the upmost caution is used, and the list is a mile long, and
the DNA is there, and film, photos, fingerprints, paper trails,
internet trails, phone trails, even the licene plate on the last camel
they rode.

What follows is a very slippery slope, leading to the
abridgement of everything we hold to be right.

Perhpas youd be happier if give up now, and crap on what our fore
father spent 200 plus years fighting for so we can all be gentleman to
jihad radical muslims out to murder us infidels.

Would you use agressive questioning methods?

Of course, and aggressive questioning is legal. Torture is not.

Are we at war?

We are. We didn't torture anyone in any previous war that I'm aware
of, including WWII,

I agree, but we did some very rough questioning on the battle fields I
assure you.

where some of the perpetrators of horrible acts
certainly deserved it, although there were some individuals who did
I'm sure. What they did, and what has happened recently (much
publicized) is illegal, and those who do it should be expelled from
their positions and sent to prison.

Uhh we did that Jon, just the other day with the yahoo's in Iraq.

Can we detain and question the enemy?

We can, do, and always have done so.

And do we disclose where we were keeping them, give them due process?

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.

According to M. Moore , Gore, and the Chicks with dicks.

Joe
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:00:26 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

So I take it you're advocating an invasion of Pakistan?

Yes. I think that would be a heck of lot more appropriate than
invading Iraq. They're certainly no friend of ours.

The question was not which of two invasions you think preferable, but
whether you advocate an invasion of Pakistan. Do you?

If we weren't bogged down in Iraq, yes. Given our current situation,
we need to fix the mess we're in, get back in force in Afganistan, and
put more pressure on Pakistan to do the right thing. After we fix the
first two problems, then yes we should attack the "safe-zone" in
Pakistan if that country is unwilling or unable to get rid of the
vermin themselves.





--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article . com,
Joe wrote:
OK you strive to do right, and they killed your kid because you were
not able to make them talk.. Was that right? Evil won. You lost...
over...no second chance.

No, it isn't right, but the alternative is worse from a macro
perspective. It's easy to get emotional and angry. It's hard to look
at the big picture when confronted by evil.

We should all strive to do good and right Jon.

Now, you make the guy talk, and you dont kill him, or even have to get
physical and he talks and your child lives a long and happy life.. You
won...he goes to prison. Yeah!!!!

Sounds good to me. I have no problem with this.

You can not turn the other cheek with these people Jon, you can not
barter, or buy them it's been public for many yrs the 25million dollar
reward for Ossama. They were a large well formed well funded terrorist
group .. Now the big wigs are in Gitmo.....

Never claimed we should turn the other cheek. I'm not Jesus. We should
be aggressive but also be smart about it.

You act as if the USA swooped up poor John Doe put bamboo under his
finger nails, tore out his tounge and tossed him out of a helo to make
the other talk.

??

At war the bomb is ticking and exploding every day, it's fact these
guys were going to attack LA in 2002.

So? That still doesn't justify torture.

I think the upmost caution is used, and the list is a mile long, and
the DNA is there, and film, photos, fingerprints, paper trails,
internet trails, phone trails, even the licene plate on the last camel
they rode.

Except for all the exceptions... torture in Abu Ghraib and possibly in
Gitmo... etc., etc...

What follows is a very slippery slope, leading to the
abridgement of everything we hold to be right.

Perhpas youd be happier if give up now, and crap on what our fore
father spent 200 plus years fighting for so we can all be gentleman to
jihad radical muslims out to murder us infidels.

??

I agree, but we did some very rough questioning on the battle fields I
assure you.

Still not torture. So, no argument.

where some of the perpetrators of horrible acts
certainly deserved it, although there were some individuals who did
I'm sure. What they did, and what has happened recently (much
publicized) is illegal, and those who do it should be expelled from
their positions and sent to prison.

Uhh we did that Jon, just the other day with the yahoo's in Iraq.

Now we need to get rid of the leaders that condoned it... starting
with Rumsfeld.

And do we disclose where we were keeping them, give them due process?

Everyone deserves due process.

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:33:03 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

If we weren't bogged down in Iraq, yes.

If pigs had wings they'd fly. But I haven't seen many flying pigs recently.

So, I guess you do think then that we are bogged down in Iraq. What do
you think we should do about it?



--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:04:41 -0700, Joe wrote:


War crimes are delt with by military tribunals, don't like it...don't
attack Americans and start a war, and get captured.


Brigadier General James Walker, the top uniformed lawyer for the Marines,
said no civilized country should deny a defendant the right to see the
evidence against him, and that the United States "should not be the
first."



From:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/...0908detain.php

Does admiting that you lied
 

thunder wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:04:41 -0700, Joe wrote:


War crimes are delt with by military tribunals, don't like it...don't
attack Americans and start a war, and get captured.


Brigadier General James Walker, the top uniformed lawyer for the Marines,
said no civilized country should deny a defendant the right to see the
evidence against him, and that the United States "should not be the
first."



Sounds like a smart Jarhead...if there is such a thing.

Joe


From:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/...0908detain.php

Does admiting that you lied
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:


Everyone deserves due process.

Sure... and people at war have a process, then American citizens have a
judical process..

Two different things.

I'd like to keep debating, but I have to go get ice, beer, and secure
gear adrift...we shall be departing soon for a full night of sailing,
do not plan on returning until mid-morning---noon.

Music, warm breeze, full sails, full moon, fresh shrimp, swimming and
good friends.

Have a good evening Jon.

Joe

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article .com,
Joe wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:


Everyone deserves due process.

Sure... and people at war have a process, then American citizens have a
judical process..

Two different things.

Apparently not according to the Supreme Court...

I'd like to keep debating, but I have to go get ice, beer, and secure
gear adrift...we shall be departing soon for a full night of sailing,
do not plan on returning until mid-morning---noon.

Music, warm breeze, full sails, full moon, fresh shrimp, swimming and
good friends.

Have a good evening Jon.

Thanks! Same to you. I'm headed down to the boat in a couple of
hours. I've got to see a man about a furler. Then, a quick trip to
West Marine for some minor things, then maybe an evening sail if it's
not too late. I gotten get up early. Teaching out of Alameda tomorrow and
Sunday.
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:11:33 -0000, "thunder" said:

Brigadier General James Walker, the top uniformed lawyer for the Marines,
said no civilized country should deny a defendant the right to see the
evidence against him, and that the United States "should not be the
first."

This is a question on which General Walker has no greater expertise than you
or I. Lawyers, whether military or otherwise, are supposed to be experts on
what the law is, not what it should be.

Give me a break. He's on the front lines of the issue. He certainly is
more qualified than either of us to render an opinion.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:13:38 -0700, Joe wrote:


The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yeah, sure. You might want to ask him his definition of torture.
Regardless, how can you believe this President when his lips are moving?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec30.html

Does admiting that you lied
 

In article ,
thunder wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:13:38 -0700, Joe wrote:


The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yeah, sure. You might want to ask him his definition of torture.
Regardless, how can you believe this President when his lips are moving?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec30.html

I would much rather wonder about the definition of what "is" is then
wonder about the definition of what torture is, umm, is.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Does admiting that you lied
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave wrote:


So I take it you're advocating an invasion of Pakistan?

Yes. I think that would be a heck of lot more appropriate than
invading Iraq. They're certainly no friend of ours.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Pervez Musharraf might take issue with that. He's been one of our most
proactive allies in the war on terror.

Max

Does admiting that you lied
 

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times,


Dave wrote:
You mean like that denial that there were secret prisons, which Oz and Doug
seem to have so much trouble locating?


Oh yeah Dave, the Bush Administration many times has said,
"Yeah, we use former KGB facilities to torture people in. We
fly prisoners overseas so they can be tortured outside the
U.S. by non-U.S. gov't agencies. Sure, we kidnap people and
hold them secretly."

Have they said that? No.

You could say, "The question has never been asked" but then
you have to explain the constant far-right-wing whining
about how these dadgum libby-rull traitors asking these
kinds of questions are helping the terrorists.

You could say that they have consistently answered "No
comment" which is slightly more believable. That has been
the answer a number of times. But the fact is that they have
said "No of course not, we don't do those things" many many
times.

Here's an example, a couple of weeks ago a reporter asked
President Bush about civilian casualtis caused by U.S.
forces. In the past he has refused comment, and the
administration has always been very hostile to suggestion
that U.S. forces have directly caused civilian casualties
(even if by accident). So I was startled to hear him say
something to the effect of 'We don't keep any official total
but at meetings I've heard numbers mentioned in the area of
25,000.'


Somebody's got a credibility problem, but I don't think it's GWB.

Maybe it's the people making excuses for him.

DSK

Does admiting that you lied
 

I've always thought it was rather odd to have ''rules'' for
war.

Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway


Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before

Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before

My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars

I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor

Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

G&R

Does admiting that you lied
 

Joe wrote:
OK you strive to do right, and they killed your kid because you were
not able to make them talk.. Was that right? Evil won. You lost...
over...no second chance.


1- torture is evil
2- People who torture others are evil
3- People who order others to commit torture are evil

And here's a big one:

4- things prisoners say to avoid or reduce torture are not
necessarily facts.

5- Torture very often goes wrong, such as when some "OGA
guys" killed one of the Al-Queda #2 men they captured before
he could reveal anything. Apparently had a weak heart or
something. Oh well.

So tell us Joe, what if you torture an Al-Queda prisoner and
gain NO useful info? Actually, that's not a 'what if' that
is what has happened.

In short, whatever your opponent does is not an excuse for
what *you* do, unless you're one of those weak-minded
weenies who think everything is somebody else's fault and
cannot take responsibility for your actions.

DSK