"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, we all missed the text where he was comparing the two...

Not surprising, you miss everything.

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?

Which is it, yes or no?

Some of us know, and some of us are amused by your
tap-dancing pretense at knowing.

DSK

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?



That's the discussion and debate you're having with Thom. Now that I
trounced you on every point, you're on that with me? Are you worried
that Thom and I are also the same person.
I guess everyone is after poor Doug!

But to answer your question:
On a boat like the 35s5, DDW, even if the wing did create a lifting
force it would be MORE than nullified by the underside of the keel
drag.

Now go dream about sailing while I actually do it!


RB
35s5
NY

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?


And are you saying that keels don't generate lift at all??? What TYPE
of lift are you talking about? Do you even know?


RB
35s5
NY

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
And are you saying that keels don't generate lift at all???

Am I saying that? Please use exact quotes.


... What TYPE
of lift are you talking about?

What part of "up" is not clear to you?

DSK

Capt. Rob wrote:
But to answer your question:
On a boat like the 35s5, DDW, even if the wing did create a lifting
force it would be MORE than nullified by the underside of the keel
drag.


Does it, or doesn't it?
This is one of those answers that attempts to evade
answering. Do you know the answer, yes or no?

It's rather funny that you cannot answer the simple
question, neither can Krusty... while I just posted a link
to a web site that explains wing keels quite clearly. Go
read it, and learn.


Now go dream about sailing while I actually do it!


For a half hour on a bulb keel J-29? Yeah right.

DSK

Does it, or doesn't it?



Doug, you're kidding, right? The 35s5 keel generates lift in either
version. It's a basic component of keel design.
Now, are you asking if the wing of the 35s5 generates lift like plane
wings on a run, the answer is, as little as possible. Berret's wing
sought minimal drag downwind and any effort to turn the wing into a a
real lifting force DDW would induce significant drag. Look HE

http://members.aol.com/bobsprit/images/haulo.jpg

Berret's broad entry for the leading edge at the base is not just about
weight. It's to distribute water flow around the wings and reduce the
plate effect at the base. As I've stated, some folks have altered this
with good results as the leading edge of the keel proves to be a more
important factor on other tacks.

RB
35s5
NY

Does it, or doesn't it?



"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, you're kidding, right? The 35s5 keel generates lift in either
version. It's a basic component of keel design.

That's not the question... did you not understand the word "up"?

Now, are you asking if the wing of the 35s5 generates lift like plane
wings on a run, the answer is, as little as possible.

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?



Berret's broad entry for the leading edge at the base is not just about
weight. It's to distribute water flow around the wings and reduce the
plate effect at the base.

??

Are you sure? "to reduce the plate effect" is generally not
a design goal of any foil... otherwise why put an end plate,
in the form a wing, on it in the first place?


... some folks have altered this
with good results as the leading edge of the keel proves to be a more
important factor on other tacks.


??

You're saying that your keel is different on different tacks?

Gee Bubbles, I'm surprised with all your advanced knowledge,
you haven't been tapped to serve as a design consultant on
one of those mega-buck racing yacht designs.

DSK

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?

In spite of Thom's assertions, drag wins the day. You can't get lift
without the cost of drag and a 35s5 is unable to gain enough velocity
to use such a wing to lift the hull. The 35s5 semi-planes based on the
hull form factor, not the wing. So the final answer is essentially NO.
Any effort to raise the boat my inducing lift on a dead run would be
made useless by lack of velocity combined with drag.

Are you sure? "to reduce the plate effect" is generally not
a design goal of any foil... otherwise why put an end plate,
in the form a wing, on it in the first place?

The wing on the 35s5 is a compromise and it costs performance in most
situations. The plate effect is one of those costs and efforts to
minimize the plate turbulence is certainly a design goal...one of many
for a wing keel.

You're saying that your keel is different on different tacks?

It behaves very differently on different tacks because forces are
distributed differently all the time. Say that 4 times fast!


Gee Bubbles, I'm surprised with all your advanced knowledge,
you haven't been tapped to serve as a design consultant on
one of those mega-buck racing yacht designs.

I only recently (last few months) started learning about keel design.
I'm slowly getting it.


RB
35s5
NY

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
In spite of Thom's assertions, drag wins the day.

Can you answer the question without trying to insult others?

... You can't get lift
without the cost of drag

Hmm, seems like I just heard this somewhere...

... a 35s5 is unable to gain enough velocity
to use such a wing to lift the hull. The 35s5 semi-planes based on the
hull form factor, not the wing.

But other boats might? So you're still prevaricating and
tap-dancing?


Any effort to raise the boat my inducing lift on a dead run would be
made useless by lack of velocity combined with drag.


Hmm, lack of velocity... drag... you need to talk to
somebody at the Department of Connecting the Dots.


Are you sure? "to reduce the plate effect" is generally not
a design goal of any foil... otherwise why put an end plate,
in the form a wing, on it in the first place?


The wing on the 35s5 is a compromise

Ya think so?

... it costs performance in most
situations. The plate effect is one of those costs and efforts to
minimize the plate turbulence is certainly a design goal...one of many
for a wing keel.


There you have it folks. One of the reasons for using a wing
keel is to gain an end plate, and yet the keel is designed
to minimize that effect.

More dots that need to be connected, looks like.


You're saying that your keel is different on different tacks?


It behaves very differently on different tacks because forces are
distributed differently all the time. Say that 4 times fast!


I'm not even going to say it once, because you clearly don't
have a clue.

Force are distributed differently on different *points of
sail* but not on different tacks.

Gee an expert sailor is going to get these basic terms
muddled sometimes though. I mean it sure is complicated,
that's why we need an brilliant & experienced sailor like
you to explain how keels and stern platforms work.




I only recently (last few months) started learning about keel design.
I'm slowly getting it.

Do tell.

DSK

Nutsy,

Yes you are starting to get it! Many, many of our ASA friends have not.
_______________________________
I only recently (last few months) started learning about keel design.
I'm slowly getting it.
RB
35s5
NY




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage