You wanna try to explain the difference between a wing keel
and a hydrofoil to ChuckieM/Krusty/BB? Other than that one
is very heavy and increases stability by use of much lead,
and the other is as light as can be made for the strength
needed?


Doug, we all missed the text where he was comparing the two...or maybe
you think his mention of airplanes also hinted at a comparison? I think
he making a point through sarcasm. Effective if you had a sense of
humor or irony..of which you have niether. I note that you have nothing
to say about....

1) My comments on the wing keel on the 35s5, though you repeated some
of it 40 minutes later!
2) You became silent when I told you I got the 19% wetted surface spec
from Beneteau. E-mail them, you dolt!
3) In a few hours you'll have to admit that the J29 I was on does exist
and I'll even put you in touch with the owner to ask about the bulb.

But Doug never wants to hear anything that might shatter his fragile
ego built around failed sailing dreams aboard his trawler. He must have
been mortified to see that I do indeed have a grasp on how the wing
keel works and I bet he never considered the current/wing issue at
all....most people don't unless they deal with strong currents on a
regular basis.
Standby for the pics of the J29....my 35s5 will also be visible in the
same shot!

Poor Doug....I do like the desperate effort to somehow make it as
though a comparison was made between hydrofoils, wing keels and duck
soup. The guy's a piece of work to be sure!

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, we all missed the text where he was comparing the two...

Not surprising, you miss everything.

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?

Which is it, yes or no?

Some of us know, and some of us are amused by your
tap-dancing pretense at knowing.

DSK

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?



That's the discussion and debate you're having with Thom. Now that I
trounced you on every point, you're on that with me? Are you worried
that Thom and I are also the same person.
I guess everyone is after poor Doug!

But to answer your question:
On a boat like the 35s5, DDW, even if the wing did create a lifting
force it would be MORE than nullified by the underside of the keel
drag.

Now go dream about sailing while I actually do it!


RB
35s5
NY

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?


And are you saying that keels don't generate lift at all??? What TYPE
of lift are you talking about? Do you even know?


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
But to answer your question:
On a boat like the 35s5, DDW, even if the wing did create a lifting
force it would be MORE than nullified by the underside of the keel
drag.


Does it, or doesn't it?
This is one of those answers that attempts to evade
answering. Do you know the answer, yes or no?

It's rather funny that you cannot answer the simple
question, neither can Krusty... while I just posted a link
to a web site that explains wing keels quite clearly. Go
read it, and learn.


Now go dream about sailing while I actually do it!


For a half hour on a bulb keel J-29? Yeah right.

DSK

So, are you saying that wing keels *don't* make boats faster
by lifting them up?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
And are you saying that keels don't generate lift at all???

Am I saying that? Please use exact quotes.


... What TYPE
of lift are you talking about?

What part of "up" is not clear to you?

DSK

Does it, or doesn't it?



Doug, you're kidding, right? The 35s5 keel generates lift in either
version. It's a basic component of keel design.
Now, are you asking if the wing of the 35s5 generates lift like plane
wings on a run, the answer is, as little as possible. Berret's wing
sought minimal drag downwind and any effort to turn the wing into a a
real lifting force DDW would induce significant drag. Look HE

http://members.aol.com/bobsprit/images/haulo.jpg

Berret's broad entry for the leading edge at the base is not just about
weight. It's to distribute water flow around the wings and reduce the
plate effect at the base. As I've stated, some folks have altered this
with good results as the leading edge of the keel proves to be a more
important factor on other tacks.

RB
35s5
NY

Does it, or doesn't it?



"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, you're kidding, right? The 35s5 keel generates lift in either
version. It's a basic component of keel design.

That's not the question... did you not understand the word "up"?

Now, are you asking if the wing of the 35s5 generates lift like plane
wings on a run, the answer is, as little as possible.

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?



Berret's broad entry for the leading edge at the base is not just about
weight. It's to distribute water flow around the wings and reduce the
plate effect at the base.

??

Are you sure? "to reduce the plate effect" is generally not
a design goal of any foil... otherwise why put an end plate,
in the form a wing, on it in the first place?


... some folks have altered this
with good results as the leading edge of the keel proves to be a more
important factor on other tacks.


??

You're saying that your keel is different on different tacks?

Gee Bubbles, I'm surprised with all your advanced knowledge,
you haven't been tapped to serve as a design consultant on
one of those mega-buck racing yacht designs.

DSK

What part of "up" is not clear to you?


Capt. Rob wrote:
I don't think you know what "up" means.

Yeah, big time... that's why you are the one who cannot give
a clear answer to a simple question.


... In the world of physics, lift
can be used to generate force in ANY direction. For a plane it's
generally simplified as a force "opposing gravity."


My my, such technical scientific talk! Are you sure than in
the world of physics, they don't use slightly more exact
terms, like the x-, y-, or z-axis?

DSK

In other words, they don't make the boat faster by lifting
the boat up? Is that your final answer?

In spite of Thom's assertions, drag wins the day. You can't get lift
without the cost of drag and a 35s5 is unable to gain enough velocity
to use such a wing to lift the hull. The 35s5 semi-planes based on the
hull form factor, not the wing. So the final answer is essentially NO.
Any effort to raise the boat my inducing lift on a dead run would be
made useless by lack of velocity combined with drag.

Are you sure? "to reduce the plate effect" is generally not
a design goal of any foil... otherwise why put an end plate,
in the form a wing, on it in the first place?

The wing on the 35s5 is a compromise and it costs performance in most
situations. The plate effect is one of those costs and efforts to
minimize the plate turbulence is certainly a design goal...one of many
for a wing keel.

You're saying that your keel is different on different tacks?

It behaves very differently on different tacks because forces are
distributed differently all the time. Say that 4 times fast!


Gee Bubbles, I'm surprised with all your advanced knowledge,
you haven't been tapped to serve as a design consultant on
one of those mega-buck racing yacht designs.

I only recently (last few months) started learning about keel design.
I'm slowly getting it.


RB
35s5
NY