What I suspect may have happened...

The steerage malfunctioned (for whatever reason)... and threw
the vessel into a hard right (starboard) and/or left (port) turn sit-
uation... and let's guess that they were underway around 24
knots... a considerable amount of list (tilt) occurred... before
the speed was effectively reduced.

And yeh... under those circumstances... things will slide and
glide if not expected... such as in this case... as reported.

Just some speculation on my part.

Check this photo out... of an aircraft carrier doing a power turn:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7pent/w...os2/index.html

Course I'm certain the navy crew was prepared for this... prior
to it's execution.

Bill

"DSK" wrote in message
news
otnmbrd wrote:
Will be interesting to find out what happened. If someone accidently hit
the wrong button during a course change it's one thing, but if there is a
control glitch..... yikes.

Does this ship steerable props (such as the Azi-Pod)? If so, then there's
no way the helmsman could make the ship roll no matter how hard he turned.


Would tend to disagree here. You put a ship into a hard turn, the mass of
the ship is going to make it lean towards the outside line of the
turn.....no matter what the propulsion.
Now, I also doubt that the angle they achieved was really as high as
speculated (that high up and it will seem much worse that it is) but it
doesn't take much of a roll which is not expected to start throwing people
and things around, but back to your point.... although Z-drive and azipod
are different, I know a Z-drive will lay itself over in a hard turn but I've
never been on an azipod unit when making one and I would have to think that
on these ships, the stabilizer (if working) would tend to minimize the roll
angle ..... a lot of speculation on my part and why I'm going to be
interested to hear the final reports.


Other possible contributor would be "stabilizers".

Bingo

As for "top heavy".... she does look it, but the reality is that she
probably isn't.


I dunno, the ABS has recently decided that use of active stabilizers
counts for stability. Maybe they have some sort of absolute guarantee that
the system never goes down? In any event, the standards for ship's
metacenter has been changed. Maybe when one of them falls on it's side and
the crew has to right it like a Laser,
http://www.willamettesailingclub.com...os/capsize.jpg
the standards will change back again?

Counts in what way? I can't imagine that it in anyway could count for
initial or damage stability, but may allow a slightly reduced one under
certain operating conditions. As for "top heavy", be it a cruise ship or a
car carrier most of that space is relatively empty (i.e., not a lot of solid
weight) so that looks aside I'm betting they still have a pretty good GM
..... course, as with the car carrier Tricolor, it doesn't take much water to
play hell with that GM.


otn

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

Joe wrote:
Capt. Rob wrote:
Now when on the helm of the fat sam I had a very hard time inducing a
30 degree roll, lucky to get a 10 degree roll without getting caught,
and we were 11 decks abouve the waterline.


I was under the impression that more occured to induce the 30% than
just a helm error. That's a long list!


RB
35s5
NY

It was not a helm error IMO. My guess is it was a prank that went a bit
to far. I bet the helmsman is glad there is no Black Box or camera
focused on him.

They have no ideal what induced the roll. Having helmed a 845 ft ship
all over the Pacific I can make a very good guess as to what happened
if they find no mechanical cause.

1. The helmsman did it, only takes about 10 seconds, and when anyone
looks at the helm after that 10 seconds he's on course looking just as
amazed :0) With the ship being so new, that was the first time somone
tried to see if they could induce a roll. IIRC the ship has Pod's and
no rudders. A seaman who is on the helm may not understand the
difference and tried an old prank sailors have been doing since the
beginning of shipping.

2. The autopilot was switched on.... on the wrong course.

Nothing else IMO.

Joe

There's no hiding.

Peter... I suspect you have hit the nail on the head... so to speak.

I kind of feel... that vessel managemt via their instrumentation knows
exactly
what occurred... coupled with "watch" personnel's testimony.

Understandbly... they are not about to reveal these details... at
this point
in time.

Bill

So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?
Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

otn

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the people
on the ships what it means


"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

It was one hell of a roll from what I've read. The pool water exited
and was replaced by sea water.

Joe wrote:
Capt. Rob wrote:
Now when on the helm of the fat sam I had a very hard time inducing a
30 degree roll, lucky to get a 10 degree roll without getting caught,
and we were 11 decks abouve the waterline.

Oh Yeah.... that's typical... it's not the guy at the fricken wheel's
fault!!

Half you guys have never been to the wheel house except to fetch another
bottle!

Thank Gawd there are folks like Peter to keep the lot of you slackers within
spec.

CM-

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...
So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?
Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

otn

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the people
on the ships what it means


"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

otnmbrd wrote:
So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?

Because I run systems on research vessels.

Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

Ummm, Joe was saying that the helmsman could have been playing games
because he could get back on course before anyone figured it out. I'm
pointing out that - those days are GONE.


otn

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the people
on the ships what it means

Heh. Got news for you, *I* tell *them*.

I don't tell the skipper how to drive his ship and he doesn't tell me
how to collect & analyze the data. But I do get to tell him *where* to
drive the ship.

Otn, if you have experience on oceanographic research vessels tracking
satellites across the sky every pass in all weathers, plus running
sophisticated acoustics mapping the sea floor, you'd realise just why I
have all the instruments. Being able to look at it later if someone's
suspected of playing games is just a spinoff. I was aboard a vessel
which had an engine room fire inside the icepack in winter once and my
systems stayed up for 8 hours after the power failed (biiiig UPS). The
data were used subsequently to help sort out timelines and the like.

As an aside, I was on the bridge once while we had a meeting and the
scientists carefully explained to the skipper & watchkeeping officers
why it was *extremely* important that they not deviate at all from the
track from waypoint to waypoint as we'd miss out on bottom coverage.

Some hours later we did, indeed, deviate. The chief scientist came
rushing to the bridge from the instrument room, and started laying into
the officer of the watch about how they couldn't follow simple
instructions and how useless they all were.

Watchkeeping officer pointed out the port window, where some 50m off
there was a 1 km tabular berg. Then suggested that the scientist get
the hell off of the bridge.

I've seen it all, my friend. I've had the fun of hand steering an
icebreaker down leads in the pack, leaving a course track that looked
later like a drunken snail trail (similar to my normal helming, in
fact, but what the hell, they pay me...). I don't make assumptions
(except that most scientists are of limited competence outside their
specialty) until I have all the facts. WRT this thread, perhaps you
might consider the wisdom of that, before you flame me for something I
didn't say.

PDW



"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

Peter wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:
So...... what the hell do you need all THIS crap for?

Because I run systems on research vessels.

Personally, after a short period of time, I'd probably tell you just where
you could shove your data, as it seems you are ready to blame the helmsman
on scanty information, for something which may well NOT be his/her doing.

Ummm, Joe was saying that the helmsman could have been playing games
because he could get back on course before anyone figured it out. I'm
pointing out that - those days are GONE.


All your fancy instruments can do is tell when and how the ship turned,
unless you have a wheel sensor or a camera watching the helmsman just
how are they going to prove that he wipped the wheel two turns stbd, 4
Port then centered back up on course?

Joe





otn

My suggestion FWIW....analyze/collect your data ...... then ask the people
on the ships what it means

Heh. Got news for you, *I* tell *them*.

I don't tell the skipper how to drive his ship and he doesn't tell me
how to collect & analyze the data. But I do get to tell him *where* to
drive the ship.

Otn, if you have experience on oceanographic research vessels tracking
satellites across the sky every pass in all weathers, plus running
sophisticated acoustics mapping the sea floor, you'd realise just why I
have all the instruments. Being able to look at it later if someone's
suspected of playing games is just a spinoff. I was aboard a vessel
which had an engine room fire inside the icepack in winter once and my
systems stayed up for 8 hours after the power failed (biiiig UPS). The
data were used subsequently to help sort out timelines and the like.

As an aside, I was on the bridge once while we had a meeting and the
scientists carefully explained to the skipper & watchkeeping officers
why it was *extremely* important that they not deviate at all from the
track from waypoint to waypoint as we'd miss out on bottom coverage.

Some hours later we did, indeed, deviate. The chief scientist came
rushing to the bridge from the instrument room, and started laying into
the officer of the watch about how they couldn't follow simple
instructions and how useless they all were.

Watchkeeping officer pointed out the port window, where some 50m off
there was a 1 km tabular berg. Then suggested that the scientist get
the hell off of the bridge.

I've seen it all, my friend. I've had the fun of hand steering an
icebreaker down leads in the pack, leaving a course track that looked
later like a drunken snail trail (similar to my normal helming, in
fact, but what the hell, they pay me...). I don't make assumptions
(except that most scientists are of limited competence outside their
specialty) until I have all the facts. WRT this thread, perhaps you
might consider the wisdom of that, before you flame me for something I
didn't say.

PDW



"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch & roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

CNN reported that the Capt was a Canadian.

Scotty


"Peter" wrote in message
ups.com...

The helmsman would be in the **** if it was one of my
vessels. I log
all the GPS data in real time plus the ships log & gyro
plus a ton of
other parameters. In fact I have 3 GPS units aboard, 1 fwd
and 2 aft
including an aircraft 3D unit and a trim cube to log pitch
& roll at 10
Hz. There's no hiding.

PDW

Joe wrote:
Capt. Rob wrote:
Now when on the helm of the fat sam I had a very hard
time inducing a
30 degree roll, lucky to get a 10 degree roll without
getting caught,
and we were 11 decks abouve the waterline.


I was under the impression that more occured to induce
the 30% than
just a helm error. That's a long list!


RB
35s5
NY

It was not a helm error IMO. My guess is it was a prank
that went a bit
to far. I bet the helmsman is glad there is no Black Box
or camera
focused on him.

They have no ideal what induced the roll. Having helmed
a 845 ft ship
all over the Pacific I can make a very good guess as to
what happened
if they find no mechanical cause.

1. The helmsman did it, only takes about 10 seconds, and
when anyone
looks at the helm after that 10 seconds he's on course
looking just as
amazed :0) With the ship being so new, that was the
first time somone
tried to see if they could induce a roll. IIRC the ship
has Pod's and
no rudders. A seaman who is on the helm may not
understand the
difference and tried an old prank sailors have been
doing since the
beginning of shipping.

2. The autopilot was switched on.... on the wrong
course.

Nothing else IMO.

Joe