Time Marches On!!!
 

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.

My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items in the
way. With JHP or a nice Nosler solid base boat tail soft nose, the bad
guy is basically going to lose a limb with a hit there, or his chest is
gonna dissolve.

PDW

You can make your own homemade flamethrower....you use a can of
hairspray...you have to be careful, though, because sometimes it
backfires and then....you're gone....

Time Marches On!!!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
"Ringmaster" wrote
... I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.



Scotty wrote:
grenades?


How about a good dog?

Frankly, I'm worried about liability. People have been
sued
for shooting robbers. I'm not kidding.

Being sane is a handicap in a crazy country.


In the SHTF situation that Loco is talking about, I'd worry
about staying alive first and lawsuits much later.

SBV

Time Marches On!!!
 

Being sane is a handicap in a crazy country.


Scotty wrote:
In the SHTF situation that Loco is talking about, I'd worry
about staying alive first and lawsuits much later.


Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the lawyers
will be permanently gone.

If you save your home from looters during a disaster, and
lose it to a lawsuit soon after, what good did you do?

Besides, if you have a big dog, he'll not only defend your
home but can help you hide the bodies. "Why no officer, I
never saw any looters at all in this neighborhood."

DSK

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
. ..

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.


Flamethrower.

What are you going to use to keep the cops at bay?

That .223 is good for pigs, coyotes and squirrels. Get a real gun that
shoots real bullets. H&K Model 91 is a good start:

http://www.hkpro.com/hk91.htm

Amen to that. Nothing quite like a .308 or 7.62x51 NATO for stopping a thug
with one shot.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.

My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items in the
way. With JHP or a nice Nosler solid base boat tail soft nose, the bad
guy is basically going to lose a limb with a hit there, or his chest is
gonna dissolve.

. . . or a substantial portion of his head will disappear.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...

What about rocksalt?
The nice thing about a pump action is that you can stuff it with a variety
of loads.

Do you really want to shoot someone and *not* kill him? And the point of
that would be . . .?


Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law.

A shotgun with an 18" (legal) barrel and a pistol grip in lieu of a
buttstock makes a great weapon indoors. Less collateral damage, too, as #4
buck won't penetrate most walls. The only gun more maneuverable would be a
pistol, and the average joe simply isn't good enough with one to use it
effectively.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Ringmaster wrote:
Anybody who does not own a weapon after seeing what happened in New
Orleans when cops are not available is a fool. I purchased an AR15 for
my "when the **** hits the fan" weapon. I also bought enough magazines
and ammo to hold off the criminal element for days until law
enforcement gets back on line. They will move on to easier pickins
after only a minute of trying to get into my house.

So...just what East Coast disaster are you waiting for? The mammoth
tsunami?

You must have seen "CSI: Miami" last night.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
...

"katy" wrote in


So...just what East Coast disaster are you waiting for? The mammoth
tsunami?

Even worse. Bobsprit: Escape from New York.

Lock and load.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
So...just what East Coast disaster are you waiting for? The mammoth
tsunami?

Earthquake, riots, massive power outs, zombies.

" . . . . . . . dogs and cats living together."

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
Did you get a Colt or a Bushmaster? I bought a shortie cabine from
Bushmaster because of the chrome lined
barrel. What length barrel? Do you have a flash supressor? what
stock? what top?

I bought a Bushmaster 16" carbine "Patrolman" model with the A3 top,
collapsible stock. Yes it has a flash supressor. I didn't like the
idea of a pinned and welded supressor on the 14" "shorty" model. I'm
looking at optics at the moment. I liked Bushmaster for the chrome
lined barrel, ability to shoot 5.56 and it's known quality
construction. I didn't like the fact Colt uses non standard pins which
would make swapping stuff impossible. I got a hellava deal from a
kitchen table FFL dealer in Virginia. $860. MSRP was $1230.

I paid only $140 some years back for a new-in-the-box, Russian-made 7.62x39
SSK. It's got a pivoting bayonet, and I bought five 30-round magazines for
it, plus a case of Wolf (Russian) ammo--Berdan-primed, so picking up brass
is a non-issue.

As a defense piece, it blows your AR-15 away in all respects, excepting
compactness. However I can obtain an aftermarket collapsible stock for it,
if I really felt it were a necessity, which I don't.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

DSK wrote:
Being sane is a handicap in a crazy country.


Scotty wrote:
In the SHTF situation that Loco is talking about, I'd worry
about staying alive first and lawsuits much later.


Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the lawyers will be
permanently gone.

If you save your home from looters during a disaster, and lose it to a
lawsuit soon after, what good did you do?

Besides, if you have a big dog, he'll not only defend your home but can
help you hide the bodies. "Why no officer, I never saw any looters at
all in this neighborhood."

DSK

You'll have to get a way different dog.....

Time Marches On!!!
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:
katy wrote:
heh...Vito and me on the same boat...would be a matter of who would kill
who first....

Well, Vito probably wouldn't be very good no matter how much BBQ sauce
you put on him....

DSK

Too many chemicals....bet he'd make good bait, though.

Fishing for what? Croakers?

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

Maxprop wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...
Ringmaster wrote:
Anybody who does not own a weapon after seeing what happened in New
Orleans when cops are not available is a fool. I purchased an AR15 for
my "when the **** hits the fan" weapon. I also bought enough magazines
and ammo to hold off the criminal element for days until law
enforcement gets back on line. They will move on to easier pickins
after only a minute of trying to get into my house.

So...just what East Coast disaster are you waiting for? The mammoth
tsunami?

You must have seen "CSI: Miami" last night.

Max


No...National Geographic station has been playing this life scenario
thing of one day disasters that would do us in....that was the
fiorst one...then they went on to super tornadoes, particle
reactors, etc.

Time Marches On!!!
 

In article , DSK
wrote:

Why wait at all Peter?
Chuck a grenade in the water and scoop them up immediately :-)


Peter Wiley wrote:
BTDT with gelignite. Wrecks the environment and kills a lot of by-catch
you aren't interested in. Works wonders on nosy crocs, tho.


I bet so, especially if you can get them to swallow it first.

At one point in my life I spent a great deal of time
splashing around in the swamps of northern Florida, and
toted a .357 revolver (a Ruger Security Six to be specific).
I kept it loaded with 3 rounds of snake shot and 3 rounds of
varying hard shot.

Yeah, used to carry a Security Six with 4" bbl when I worked in the
Northern Territory. My Ruger 44Mag semiauto carbine was a lot more use.
Main use for the revolver was shooting at salvaged fishing floats from
the back deck. Or beer cans.

Come to think of it, the 44Mag carbine would make a *great* home
defence gun. A hit from a 240gr JHP is gonna really ruin your day.

Alligators were very common and as long as I wasn't in the
water with them, never minded them much. But one afternoon I
felt it desirable to shoot a larger specimen, about 7' or
so. He was close enough to poke with the canoe paddle, if
I'd been minded to. Rotated the chamber to a solid shot
(Winchester Silvertip IIRC), stood up, and plugged Mr Gator
right between the eyes.

He kicked around a bit in agitation, then swam away.

Very tough critters. I hear the crocs are even tougher.

Dunno about tougher, but they get a *lot* bigger, and their girth
increases disproportionately with increase in length. A 4' long croc is
quite slim, a 10' one is bulking up and a 14' one is - substantial. We
were barramundi fishing in the Wessels Is group off of Arnhem Land,
wading up a creek, some 20 plus years ago. This was pretty stupid but
we were a fair way out in the island chain, figured we'd be ok. Spotted
a croc, 4 people did a standing leap from waist deep water into the
dinghy in an eyeblink. Being young & stupid was a wonderful thing, for
those of us who survived it.

It wasn't even a big croc, but we weren't waiting for mommy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sal****er_Crocodile

PDW

Time Marches On!!!
 

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law


2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.


3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56. Yes the two rounds have basicly the same exterior
dimensions BUT the 5.56 is usually loaded to produce higher velocity
and chamber pressures. The difference comes in the chambering of the
rifle and that difference is in "leade". It may LOOK the same but a
5.56 round has a slightly longer lead than a 223. SAMMI considers the
use of 5.56 ammo in a rifle that is chambered for 223 only as AN UNSAFE
AMMUNITION COMBINATION. There are also a couple of additional minor
measurement differences. You do a web search and check it out. Now
you check out the SAAMI website and get an education.

Time Marches On!!!
 

Read if you don't want your rifle to go KABOOM.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...spx?storyid=11

Time Marches On!!!
 

"katy" wrote:
Ringmaster wrote:
So...just what East Coast disaster are you waiting for?
The mammoth
tsunami?

Earthquake, riots, massive power outs, zombies.

Got news for you...the zombies are already here..I saw a
group of them at Food Lion this afternoon....

Try the Piggly Wiggly.

Seahag

Time Marches On!!!
 

You must have seen "CSI: Miami" last night..

Awsome show in HD.

Time Marches On!!!
 

In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

Hey, I've only been an active hunter, reloader and target shooter for
30+ years so far. I'm far from an expert. OTOH you admit you're a
newbie.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law

Riiiight. So a rifle with a 16.01" bbl length is less unwieldy than a
pistol gripped shotgun with a 18.01" bbl length. Suuure. If you think
so.



2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.

Good, you've learnt something without having to ask. Your neighbours
may live to be pleased, even if you aren't.



3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56.

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

Time Marches On!!!
 

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
Did you get a Colt or a Bushmaster? I bought a shortie cabine from
Bushmaster because of the chrome lined
barrel. What length barrel? Do you have a flash supressor? what
stock? what top?

I bought a Bushmaster 16" carbine "Patrolman" model with the A3 top,
collapsible stock. Yes it has a flash supressor.

..... which makes it longer than an 18" barrelled shotgun. Good choice.

I didn't like the
idea of a pinned and welded supressor on the 14" "shorty" model. I'm
looking at optics at the moment.

Yep, just what you need for home defence, optics.....

I liked Bushmaster for the chrome
lined barrel, ability to shoot 5.56 and it's known quality
construction. I didn't like the fact Colt uses non standard pins which
would make swapping stuff impossible. I got a hellava deal from a
kitchen table FFL dealer in Virginia. $860. MSRP was $1230.

I paid only $140 some years back for a new-in-the-box, Russian-made 7.62x39
SSK. It's got a pivoting bayonet, and I bought five 30-round magazines for
it, plus a case of Wolf (Russian) ammo--Berdan-primed, so picking up brass
is a non-issue.

As a defense piece, it blows your AR-15 away in all respects, excepting
compactness. However I can obtain an aftermarket collapsible stock for it,
if I really felt it were a necessity, which I don't.

Been there, too, Max. I have memories of shooting feral goats thru the
chest at less than 50m with one of those, using FMJ ex-mil ammo. Waste
of time, you needed to hit them multiple times before they fell over. I
bought it to play with and traded it when I got tired of it. Ditto with
a toy M1 carbine. A SAFN 30-06 was somewhat more effective.

I assume you have more sense than to use FMJ on humans.

OTOH the Ruger 44Mag carbine with 240gr JHP was a one shot drop every
time, as was a 6mm Rem with 85gr Sierra SP at 3300 fps for the longer
ranges. We used to shoot the crap out of mobs of feral goats at close
range until the survivors learnt better, then snipe them across the
ridges until they decided it was healthier back in the national park.

Where I live I dont' expect to ever need to shoot at people, and don't
plan on spending any time thinkng about it. However I know what guns
I'd be using and they'd be those that most efficiently killed animals
of approx the same size/weight.

PDW

Time Marches On!!!
 

"DSK" wrote
Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the
lawyers
will be permanently gone.

Rats!




Besides, if you have a big dog, he'll not only defend your
home but can help you hide the bodies. "Why no officer, I
never saw any looters at all in this neighborhood."


We have a small dog and she's afraid of her own shadow.

SV

Time Marches On!!!
 

"katy" wrote
heh...Vito and me on the same boat...would be a matter of who would
kill who first....

Naw, being old I have strong opinions but always seek new information with which
to modify or reinforce them. Thats why I like the discussions here. Didn't you
say you read/spoke Hebrew?

Time Marches On!!!
 

Seahag wrote:
"katy" wrote:
Ringmaster wrote:
So...just what East Coast disaster are you waiting for?
The mammoth
tsunami?

Earthquake, riots, massive power outs, zombies.

Got news for you...the zombies are already here..I saw a
group of them at Food Lion this afternoon....

Try the Piggly Wiggly.

Seahag


Too close to Smithfield for that! No pigs are left to wiggle around
here! They all turn into Virginia hams...

Time Marches On!!!
 

Scotty wrote:
"DSK" wrote
Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the
lawyers
will be permanently gone.

Rats!



Besides, if you have a big dog, he'll not only defend your
home but can help you hide the bodies. "Why no officer, I
never saw any looters at all in this neighborhood."


We have a small dog and she's afraid of her own shadow.

SV


It's been proven over and over again, that it doesn't make any
difference what size dog as long as it makes noise when people try
to break in. Can be the most friendly dog int he world, barking in
glee over company, but the noise still tips people off that
somethings wrong. Who wants to make the mistake of crawling through
the window of a house where the dog is frantically rollicking only
to be met with the barrel of a gun in their face? Dogs of any kind
are a deterrent...as long as they bark. On the other hand, there's
my daughters rottweiler who is as quiet as a shadow. If someone
crawled through a window, they would immediately lose bladder
control when they found the first limb ensconced in his jaws.

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote
My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

Factor one more item into it - police both before and after the action. If
y'all have a 'vigilante weapon' they are likely to freak out and take it away
from you to avoid you killing somebody. By the same token, if you do have to
shoot, they're likely to be more understanding if you use a 'hunting' or
'target' gun. So the only one on the list I'd pick is the guage.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items .....

..... including the little old lady on the next block. Great military weapon
tells police & prosecutors that y'all must be a vigilante looking for an excuse
to kill. Avoid that appearance. Don't forget to shriek "Don't hurt me! Please
don't hurt me!" while shooting them in order to support a self defense plea
later.

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
ups.com...
You must have seen "CSI: Miami" last night..

Awsome show in HD.

Question: do you find that such digital broadcasts have weird sound
quality? My background music is so loud that occasionally the dialog is
hard to hear. I love the HD, but the sound is unacceptable. All three TVs
have the same sound problems: a rear-projection, and two LCDs, all HD.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

Vito wrote:
"katy" wrote
heh...Vito and me on the same boat...would be a matter of who would
kill who first....

Naw, being old I have strong opinions but always seek new information with which
to modify or reinforce them. Thats why I like the discussions here. Didn't you
say you read/spoke Hebrew?


No, I never made that claim. A bit of Spanish is all I lay claim
too..and that's just tourist Spanish.

Time Marches On!!!
 

"DSK" wrote
Scotty wrote:
In the SHTF situation that Loco is talking about, I'd worry
about staying alive first and lawsuits much later.

Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the lawyers
will be permanently gone.

If you save your home from looters during a disaster, and
lose it to a lawsuit soon after, what good did you do?


That's a point that cannot be overemphasized. Massad Ayoob has written several
books on the subject and I harp on it whenever I teach a firearms class.
Remember, the only LEGAL reason for using deadly force is that you *believe*
that your (or a loved one's) life is endangered and that you will have to prove
that. Simple robbery is not enough. So make it easy to prove - to police,
prosecutors and a jury if necessary. Make sure any/all witnesses believe that
you acted out of justifiable fear. Tell police "that murderer forced me to
shoot him. I was so scared". That's hard to pull off if you just happened to
whack him, and the kid in the next block, with a military style weapon. A pump
shotgun suitable for skeet shooting or a lever action 30-30, is alot easier to
explain than a military rifle.

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

I paid only $140 some years back for a new-in-the-box, Russian-made
7.62x39
SSK. It's got a pivoting bayonet, and I bought five 30-round magazines
for
it, plus a case of Wolf (Russian) ammo--Berdan-primed, so picking up
brass
is a non-issue.

As a defense piece, it blows your AR-15 away in all respects, excepting
compactness. However I can obtain an aftermarket collapsible stock for
it,
if I really felt it were a necessity, which I don't.

Been there, too, Max. I have memories of shooting feral goats thru the
chest at less than 50m with one of those, using FMJ ex-mil ammo. Waste
of time, you needed to hit them multiple times before they fell over. I
bought it to play with and traded it when I got tired of it. Ditto with
a toy M1 carbine. A SAFN 30-06 was somewhat more effective.

Duh. Obviously the 30-06 is a far more potent cartrige than the 7.62x39.
And why would you use a FMJ bullet for shooting goats??? Someone drilled a
tiny hole in the nose of those things in order to pass them off as "hunting
ammo" but they are still non-expanding FMJs and worthless. My Wolf ammo is
jacketed soft-point, and far more effective for hunting, despite the fact
that I didn't buy the gun to be a hunter. I have a Sako .308 and a
Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for that purpose. What the SSK does is
provide a play weapon for little money and cheap ammo costs. Great for
plinking, shooting rats, and just making noise. Alexander Kalashnikov
designed a very reliable, gas-operated, semi-auto action, and the rifle is
well-balanced and light enough to carry around for a day of plinking. No
other purpose for it, IMO. As an aside, the 7.62x39, at .30 caliber, is a
more reliable military round than the .223 Nato, which will deflect and
tumble if it hits tree leaves between the gun and the target.

OTOH the Ruger 44Mag carbine with 240gr JHP was a one shot drop every
time, as was a 6mm Rem with 85gr Sierra SP at 3300 fps for the longer
ranges. We used to shoot the crap out of mobs of feral goats at close
range until the survivors learnt better, then snipe them across the
ridges until they decided it was healthier back in the national park.

Where I live I dont' expect to ever need to shoot at people, and don't
plan on spending any time thinkng about it. However I know what guns
I'd be using and they'd be those that most efficiently killed animals
of approx the same size/weight.

I'm betting you've never used an 18" shotgun with 4 buck on those goats,
right? Well, I can assure you it's an excellent defense load within 50
feet. I have one because I replicated what several police officers have
told me is what they've used with literally 100% success.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"DSK" wrote
.... IMHO a shotgun would be much preferable.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh25-e.htm

I agree but stick to a Mossburg 500 or Remington 870 with a *wood* stock to
avoid the "Assault Rifle" stigma. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote
Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the
lawyers
will be permanently gone.

Rats!

Also sharks, slime, pond scum, and vultures.

Or were you just issuing an expletive?

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

Maxprop wrote:
"Scotty" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the
lawyers
will be permanently gone.
Rats!

Also sharks, slime, pond scum, and vultures.

Or were you just issuing an expletive?

Max


You forgot the flies and cockroaches....

Time Marches On!!!
 

Amen!

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
. ..

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.


Flamethrower.

What are you going to use to keep the cops at bay?

That .223 is good for pigs, coyotes and squirrels. Get a real gun that
shoots real bullets. H&K Model 91 is a good start:

http://www.hkpro.com/hk91.htm

Amen to that. Nothing quite like a .308 or 7.62x51 NATO for stopping a
thug with one shot.

Max

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.

My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items in the
way. With JHP or a nice Nosler solid base boat tail soft nose, the bad
guy is basically going to lose a limb with a hit there, or his chest is
gonna dissolve.

PDW

Nosler Partition or Speer Grand Slam!

For some real fun, try a 220 gr BTHP in a .308. Kicks like a mule!

Glory!

Time Marches On!!!
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.

My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items in the
way. With JHP or a nice Nosler solid base boat tail soft nose, the bad
guy is basically going to lose a limb with a hit there, or his chest is
gonna dissolve. PDW

You can make your own homemade flamethrower....you use a can of
hairspray...you have to be careful, though, because sometimes it backfires
and then....you're gone....

The beehive and rolling pin would make me run.

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Scotty wrote:
In the SHTF situation that Loco is talking about, I'd worry
about staying alive first and lawsuits much later.

Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the lawyers
will be permanently gone.

If you save your home from looters during a disaster, and
lose it to a lawsuit soon after, what good did you do?


That's a point that cannot be overemphasized. Massad Ayoob has written
several
books on the subject and I harp on it whenever I teach a firearms class.
Remember, the only LEGAL reason for using deadly force is that you
*believe*
that your (or a loved one's) life is endangered and that you will have to
prove
that. Simple robbery is not enough. So make it easy to prove - to police,
prosecutors and a jury if necessary. Make sure any/all witnesses believe
that
you acted out of justifiable fear. Tell police "that murderer forced me
to
shoot him. I was so scared". That's hard to pull off if you just happened
to
whack him, and the kid in the next block, with a military style weapon. A
pump
shotgun suitable for skeet shooting or a lever action 30-30, is alot
easier to
explain than a military rifle.


Ever read any Peter Kokalis?

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight for
the 5.56.

Amen!

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

Hey, I've only been an active hunter, reloader and target shooter for
30+ years so far. I'm far from an expert. OTOH you admit you're a
newbie.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law

Riiiight. So a rifle with a 16.01" bbl length is less unwieldy than a
pistol gripped shotgun with a 18.01" bbl length. Suuure. If you think
so.



2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.

Good, you've learnt something without having to ask. Your neighbours
may live to be pleased, even if you aren't.



3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56.

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

The military cases are thicker than commercial and the primer is swaged. The
military case holds a little less powder so the CUP (copper units of
pressure) is higher with a commercial load in a mil case. I've separated
cases with occurs just above the base. It can be a crack to complete
separation. I've done it in military semi autos and bolt action rifles. A
modern firearm is designed to blow the separation away from the face. The
gun does not blow up. You'll notice the headstamp flattened out and the
primer pocket flattened. With rifle rounds, you can't double charge the load
as in pistols so the chances of ever loading something that can burst a
receiver is almost non existent.
Glory!

Time Marches On!!!
 

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
Read if you don't want your rifle to go KABOOM.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...spx?storyid=11


It didn't mention that military chamber are also .010" oversize in diameter
to allow for better case extraction.

It also does not mention the bullet weight. The 45 grain bullet is much
shorter than a 65 grain bullet. If you were to seat the 45 gr bullet to the
specificed length given in the article it would not be a mil spec round.

That article is just an attempt to disclaim liability.

Glory!