"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

Perfectly rational decision - as far as 'rational' can be used WRT
boats anyway. Buy the best you can for the dollars you have available.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade
deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw
materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet
we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're
a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a
country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade
deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw
materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet
we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're
a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a
country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt.

My best guess is that we can't. To add complexity to the problem, our
consumptive habits are being taxed by increasing crude prices along with
higher demand for fossil fuels. One reason for this is that China will soon
become a larger consumer of Middle Eastern oil than the US. The influence
US demand for oil has on crude prices will ultimately be less important in
light of that of mainland China.

The USA is living in the past in many respects. Our labor force can't come
to grips with the boilerplate fact that in a world economy the wages they've
grown accustomed to are simply not reasonable if they wish to keep their
jobs from being exported. Further, as you imply, we've evolved into a net
importer of consumer goods with a continuing decline in exports. To further
compound the economic miasma the government has begun to shoulder larger and
larger financial obligations, straining an already-strained middle class to
pay for it all. It's a recipe for disaster, and no one, especially our
legislators, want to talk about it. It's not politically expedient to
discuss such things, apparently, but the next generation or two won't have
much choice. We're leaving our kids and grandkids a dismal legacy. Al
Qaeda won't have to destroy us--we seem to be on course for doing that to
ourselves.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in
the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I
discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures
I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like
78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San
Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding
high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Scotty

Scotty wrote:
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in

the USA are of

foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I

discover the

product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures

I saw said the

trade deficit between the US and China was something like

78-22. One only

has to watch container ships entering and leaving San

Francisco Bay to see

this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their

waterlines, while the

departing vessels have empty containers and are riding

high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Scotty


My brother just got back from 3 weeks in China for Alticor, which
has established a large niche there...

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in
the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I
discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures
I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like
78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San
Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding
high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Whew. That makes me feel a whole lot better.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
om...



So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.


They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And
both the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was
horrendous and the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be
replaced...Neither had any great value and the 22' sailed for crap
(shoal draft)...we upgraded to a boat with diesel and a wheel (27
was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had rotator cuff surgery...)


So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.


Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact
that this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase,
his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and
indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that
tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said
"absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was,
though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could
not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not
decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored
the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then
9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not
having the foresight to change with the changing world.

In article , katy
wrote:

Maxprop wrote:
Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact
that this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase,
his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and
indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that
tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said
"absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was,
though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could
not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not
decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored
the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then
9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not
having the foresight to change with the changing world.

Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

Within the past three years I've purchased a cabinet saw, a wood lathe, a
larger band saw, and several other smaller machines, such as belt sanders,
planer, jointer, and the like. Each Taiwanese. I searched for
American-built counterparts, but nothing came close in either price or
quality for the same money. It's as if nobody stateside cares. But they
will---mark my word.


It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

I'm amazed anyone in *America* would buy a US-built vehicle over a far
eastern example. Some still do, and those same folks raise hell with me for
buying foreign. But the numbers are slipping in favor of the imports.
Toyota's Camry is the #1 selling sedan of its size range here now. The next
three are comprised of two imports and an American.

Max

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:010320060011210810% Bingo. We've been running this
argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of
small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend
didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it
was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it.
But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for
my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as
elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the
accuracy is
satisfactory.


Rockwell, a local plant made small printing presses
($500,000 a piece ) . The Japs copied them and offered them
for half price. Customers told me that the USA press was
made better, more precise, & lasted longer but for half
price, if you didn't run them as hard, the Jap copy did the
job okay.

Scotty