In article , katy
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy
wrote:


Peter Wiley wrote:

This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of
to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA.......

Ah, the irony.

PDW

In article , Capt. JG
wrote:



I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other
countries opening up their markets.

We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow
enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why
would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior
(I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon,
or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you
can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag?
Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon
acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so
far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of
preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to
mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more
nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as
a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow
disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves?
We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing
seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude.
What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are
even growing our own kiwi fruit now.


Shrug. Most US beef is from feedlots. IMHO feedlots are a disgusting
aberration and rate as cruelty to animals. This is an informed opinion;
I once spent 2 years designing & building cattle feedlot management
software for Australia's top agro-science research group. During that 2
years I spent a *lot* of time working hands-on in feedlots. One of the
most important modules in the software dealt with vetinary drugs, their
effects & witholding periods from market etc. I quit the day V1.0 was
finished when they wouldn't let me go to a different project. If you
don't have some form of prion disease, you're very, very lucky because
I know that your husbandry methods aren't the reasons. Or weren't 10
years ago when I was doing this stuff.

As for fresh fruit & vegetables, I agree fully. Local is best.

The problem with your acres & acres of wheat, corn soy etc isn't that
you have too little, it's that it costs you too much. To prop up your
farmers, you refuse to allow imports from places which can grow those
foodstuffs more efficiently. Hence my comment WRT the irony of a US
citizen complaining about protection. It is a *fact* that other
countries can produce those foodstuffs more cheaply than you can,
including delivery to the USA. Often those countries are 3rd World ones
trying to get a better std of living for themselves by exporting
agro-produce. Stopping them is doing 2 things, both bad. First, you're
paying more than you need for domestic foodstuffs. Second, you're
helping to keep others impoverished.

Of course, it's actually worse than that because you use market
subsidies to sell to o/s countries, thereby distorting the
international markets.

You probably waste enough money annually to pay for another invasion
of, say, Syria.

PDW

I don't adhere to the Walmart mentality...importation of cheap goods
to the US is driving US manufactureres out of business. And I am
not an adherent to an a system of equal global economy, which IMO,
smacks of socialism.

Riiiiiiiiiight. So what you're saying is, you'd rather inefficient and
expensive locally made goods than something of equal quality from
overseas, at a lower price.

So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.

PDW

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy
wrote:


Peter Wiley wrote:

In article , katy
wrote:



Peter Wiley wrote:


This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of
to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA.......

Ah, the irony.

PDW

In article , Capt. JG
wrote:




I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other
countries opening up their markets.

We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow
enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why
would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior
(I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon,
or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you
can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag?
Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon
acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so
far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of
preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to
mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more
nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as
a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow
disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves?
We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing
seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude.
What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are
even growing our own kiwi fruit now.


Shrug. Most US beef is from feedlots. IMHO feedlots are a disgusting
aberration and rate as cruelty to animals. This is an informed opinion;
I once spent 2 years designing & building cattle feedlot management
software for Australia's top agro-science research group. During that 2
years I spent a *lot* of time working hands-on in feedlots. One of the
most important modules in the software dealt with vetinary drugs, their
effects & witholding periods from market etc. I quit the day V1.0 was
finished when they wouldn't let me go to a different project. If you
don't have some form of prion disease, you're very, very lucky because
I know that your husbandry methods aren't the reasons. Or weren't 10
years ago when I was doing this stuff.

As for fresh fruit & vegetables, I agree fully. Local is best.

The problem with your acres & acres of wheat, corn soy etc isn't that
you have too little, it's that it costs you too much. To prop up your
farmers, you refuse to allow imports from places which can grow those
foodstuffs more efficiently. Hence my comment WRT the irony of a US
citizen complaining about protection. It is a *fact* that other
countries can produce those foodstuffs more cheaply than you can,
including delivery to the USA. Often those countries are 3rd World ones
trying to get a better std of living for themselves by exporting
agro-produce. Stopping them is doing 2 things, both bad. First, you're
paying more than you need for domestic foodstuffs. Second, you're
helping to keep others impoverished.

Of course, it's actually worse than that because you use market
subsidies to sell to o/s countries, thereby distorting the
international markets.

You probably waste enough money annually to pay for another invasion
of, say, Syria.

PDW

I don't adhere to the Walmart mentality...importation of cheap goods
to the US is driving US manufactureres out of business. And I am
not an adherent to an a system of equal global economy, which IMO,
smacks of socialism.


Riiiiiiiiiight. So what you're saying is, you'd rather inefficient and
expensive locally made goods than something of equal quality from
overseas, at a lower price.

So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.

PDW
I didn't import it...we bought it used,,,and I don't think we should
be isolationist...I am a proponent of the American farm movement,
though, have had many friends who are small patch farmers eking out
an existence...yes, big cities and large national food chains do use
feed lot beef, but in the heartland of America, you'll find
homegrown produce and homegrown meat in the stores. Some local
chains make a point of buying all the 4-H animals and the FFA
winners. It's your perspective of America. You think of big
cities, etc. I think of the midwest and rural life. Selling out by
importing cheap produce only anihilates a lifestyle that is part of
our history that us struggling to exist.

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price
range at the time.

Max

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

Perfectly rational decision - as far as 'rational' can be used WRT
boats anyway. Buy the best you can for the dollars you have available.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade
deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw
materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet
we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're
a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a
country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade
deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw
materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet
we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're
a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a
country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt.

My best guess is that we can't. To add complexity to the problem, our
consumptive habits are being taxed by increasing crude prices along with
higher demand for fossil fuels. One reason for this is that China will soon
become a larger consumer of Middle Eastern oil than the US. The influence
US demand for oil has on crude prices will ultimately be less important in
light of that of mainland China.

The USA is living in the past in many respects. Our labor force can't come
to grips with the boilerplate fact that in a world economy the wages they've
grown accustomed to are simply not reasonable if they wish to keep their
jobs from being exported. Further, as you imply, we've evolved into a net
importer of consumer goods with a continuing decline in exports. To further
compound the economic miasma the government has begun to shoulder larger and
larger financial obligations, straining an already-strained middle class to
pay for it all. It's a recipe for disaster, and no one, especially our
legislators, want to talk about it. It's not politically expedient to
discuss such things, apparently, but the next generation or two won't have
much choice. We're leaving our kids and grandkids a dismal legacy. Al
Qaeda won't have to destroy us--we seem to be on course for doing that to
ourselves.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in
the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I
discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures
I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like
78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San
Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding
high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Scotty

Scotty wrote:
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in

the USA are of

foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I

discover the

product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures

I saw said the

trade deficit between the US and China was something like

78-22. One only

has to watch container ships entering and leaving San

Francisco Bay to see

this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their

waterlines, while the

departing vessels have empty containers and are riding

high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Scotty


My brother just got back from 3 weeks in China for Alticor, which
has established a large niche there...

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in
the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I
discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures
I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like
78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San
Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding
high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Whew. That makes me feel a whole lot better.

Max