Capt. JG wrote:

But Jim, you're supplying all the facts we need!



JG, if the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you wasting
all this time and cyberspace? But as to my supplying all the facts you
need, which facts in particular are you referring to? Actually, you
have been having a great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you
haven't come up with anything at all to back up all your assertions. Are
they falling apart by the hundreds all over the world JG? Are the
owners and crew perishing if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots?
If so, why not give us some news reports or independent accounts about
all this carnage.

You also haven't told us where you are getting all your purported
information about the Mac 26M, or whether or not you ever even sailed
one of the 26M's. - Have you? No? Then, of course, you really don't
have much first-hand information about them, do you JG?

Jim

Come on Jim... every time you type something, you're supplying us with
facts. That's simple logic and even the owner of a wonderful MacrapM would
know that. Are you sure you own one?

Fortunately, I'm allowed to waste my time any way I want. Isn't America
great!

You're right, though. The only way to back up my assertions that they are
pieces of garbage, designed for novice sailors who don't know better, would
be to own one myself. Well, I guess you've got me there!

Please show me where I've ever said that they fall apart by the hundreds or
their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. The fact that they're cheaply built
and sail poorly (sorry, just what I've observed) says absolutely nothing
about them being appropriate for some people.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Capt. JG wrote:

But Jim, you're supplying all the facts we need!


JG, if the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you wasting
all this time and cyberspace? But as to my supplying all the facts you
need, which facts in particular are you referring to? Actually, you have
been having a great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't
come up with anything at all to back up all your assertions. Are they
falling apart by the hundreds all over the world JG? Are the owners and
crew perishing if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If so, why
not give us some news reports or independent accounts about all this
carnage.
You also haven't told us where you are getting all your purported
information about the Mac 26M, or whether or not you ever even sailed one
of the 26M's. - Have you? No? Then, of course, you really don't have
much first-hand information about them, do you JG?
Jim

Capt. JG wrote:

Come on Jim... every time you type something, you're supplying us with
facts. That's simple logic and even the owner of a wonderful MacrapM would
know that. Are you sure you own one?

Fortunately, I'm allowed to waste my time any way I want. Isn't America
great!

You're right, though. The only way to back up my assertions that they are
pieces of garbage, designed for novice sailors who don't know better, would
be to own one myself. Well, I guess you've got me there!

Please show me where I've ever said that they fall apart by the hundreds or
their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. The fact that they're cheaply built
and sail poorly (sorry, just what I've observed) says absolutely nothing
about them being appropriate for some people.




JG, please show me where I said that you said the Macs fall apart by the
hundreds,or that their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. - What I did
say, of course, was:

"JG, IF the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you
wasting all this time and cyberspace? ...... Actually, you have been
having a great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't come
up with anything at all to back up all your assertions. ARE THEY falling
apart by the hundreds all over the world JG? ARE THEIR OWNERS AND CREWS
PERISHING if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If so, why not
give us some news reports or independent accounts about all this carnage. "


So if, as you keep saying, the Macs are "junk" or, "a pretend sailboat,"
or "a lousy boat at rip-off prices," etc., then why aren't they falling
apart by the hundreds, and why aren't their crews perishing in anything
over moderate winds? - As I have said, I don't consider them suitable
for extended blue water crossings or the like. But since there are
thousands of them on the water (Particularly since they are one of the
most popular sailboat ever made and are sailed in all kinds of
conditions), and if your assertions were correct, surely there would be
hundreds of them breaking apart in even moderate weather conditions. To
the contrary, if you check any of the Mac discussion groups you will
note many owners who have been sailing their Macs for years in a variety
of conditions, have sailed other boats, and,when they finally trade in
their boats, often choose another Mac.


From what you have said, you haven't even sailed any of the recent
models of the Mac26 (e.g., the Mac 26M). Again, you really don't have
any first-hand experience with the 26M's, and the nearest experience you
have with ANY Macs were several anecdotes about Macs that seemed to be
having some type of difficulty in SFbay. (And who on this ng hasn't
had "difficulties" in some sailing conditions?)

In other words, it's obvious that you really don't have anything to back
up your statements about the Macs, JG. - Stupid remarks like: "They
junk and look like it" don't contribute anything useful to the ng; they
don't help anyone; and they generally short-circuit what might become a
balanced, potentially helpful discussion.

Or are you just another troll JG, as Joe noted?

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
JG, please show me where I said that you said the Macs fall apart by the
hundreds,or that their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. - What I did
say, of course, was:
"JG, IF the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you wasting
all this time and cyberspace? ...... Actually, you have been having a
great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't come up with
anything at all to back up all your assertions. ARE THEY falling apart by
the hundreds all over the world JG? ARE THEIR OWNERS AND CREWS PERISHING
if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If so, why not give us some
news reports or independent accounts about all this carnage. "

I do have a great ole time bashing them!! Admittedly, I only have my own
observations, comments from friends who have made observations, and comments
from a dealer that they are relatively worthless as either a sailboat or a
power boat, that they are flimsy, and should not be sailed in anything but
the most protected waters, certainly inappropriate for sailing in the bay.

So if, as you keep saying, the Macs are "junk" or, "a pretend sailboat,"
or "a lousy boat at rip-off prices," etc., then why aren't they falling
apart by the hundreds, and why aren't their crews perishing in anything
over moderate winds? - As I have said, I don't consider them suitable

No idea... dumb luck? The owners usually wise up and sell them to some other
fool? Please tell us!

for extended blue water crossings or the like. But since there are

But, I thought you said before you left on your trip that you were going to
do just that and you were going to take some pictures, if for no other
reason than to shut me up! Was I wrong?

thousands of them on the water (Particularly since they are one of the
most popular sailboat ever made and are sailed in all kinds of
conditions), and if your assertions were correct, surely there would be

All kinds of conditions? Really? All kinds?

hundreds of them breaking apart in even moderate weather conditions. To
the contrary, if you check any of the Mac discussion groups you will note
many owners who have been sailing their Macs for years in a variety of
conditions, have sailed other boats, and,when they finally trade in their
boats, often choose another Mac.

Fortunately, I only have to endure your rantings about your fine vessel. Why
would I want to listen to a bunch of other idiots. I meant to say, other
proud owners.

From what you have said, you haven't even sailed any of the recent models
of the Mac26 (e.g., the Mac 26M). Again, you really don't have any
first-hand experience with the 26M's, and the nearest experience you have
with ANY Macs were several anecdotes about Macs that seemed to be having
some type of difficulty in SFbay. (And who on this ng hasn't had
"difficulties" in some sailing conditions?)

Fortunately, no. I have not. I also have not sailed any new Swans, but I
know that by reputation they are pretty well-made.

As to anecdotes, I guess mine are just not good enough for you... sigh....

In other words, it's obvious that you really don't have anything to back
up your statements about the Macs, JG. - Stupid remarks like: "They

Sure I do, but you're not listening. I've already stated that I've seen them
"sailing" on the bay. (Quotes are significant here.)

junk and look like it" don't contribute anything useful to the ng; they
don't help anyone; and they generally short-circuit what might become a
balanced, potentially helpful discussion.

I'm not short-circuiting anything. You're the one screaming names. I'm just
pointing out that not all of us are taken in by the argument that since
1000s are sold, that makes for a good anything.

Or are you just another troll JG, as Joe noted?

Well, Joe is entitled to his opinions. At least, I respect Joe because he
sails a great boat with skill.

Capt. JG wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


JG, please show me where I said that you said the Macs fall apart by the
hundreds,or that their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. - What I did
say, of course, was:
"JG, IF the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you wasting
all this time and cyberspace? ...... Actually, you have been having a
great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't come up with
anything at all to back up all your assertions. ARE THEY falling apart by
the hundreds all over the world JG? ARE THEIR OWNERS AND CREWS PERISHING
if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If so, why not give us some
news reports or independent accounts about all this carnage. "



I do have a great ole time bashing them!! Admittedly, I only have my own
observations, comments from friends who have made observations, and comments
from a dealer that they are relatively worthless as either a sailboat or a
power boat, that they are flimsy, and should not be sailed in anything but
the most protected waters, certainly inappropriate for sailing in the bay.


Actually, of course, you have very little information about, or
experience, with the current Mac 26M series. Right Jon?

Also, would you please give me the name of that particular Mac dealer
Jon? I would really like to get his side of the discussion, and compare
it with your version!




So if, as you keep saying, the Macs are "junk" or, "a pretend sailboat,"
or "a lousy boat at rip-off prices," etc., then why aren't they falling
apart by the hundreds, and why aren't their crews perishing in anything
over moderate winds? - As I have said, I don't consider them suitable



No idea... dumb luck? The owners usually wise up and sell them to some other
fool? Please tell us!


"Dumb luck" Jon??? That just doesn't cut it. - If the boats were junk,
as you claim, then we Mac owners wouldn't be sailing them in locations
around the world, and we would get rid of our Macs as soon as we could.
- But we don't. Most of us have experience on various other boats, and
most of us enjoy sailing the Macs, which is why we keep them.


or extended blue water crossings or the like. But since there are



But, I thought you said before you left on your trip that you were going to
do just that and you were going to take some pictures, if for no other
reason than to shut me up! Was I wrong?

Yep. You were wrong. - I didn't say anything about pictures Jon. In any
event, you need to get your story straight, beginning with what I
actually said (not what you inferred) about our cruise. - Again, my
Mac has no dining room, health club, room service, casino, etc., and my
wife came with me on this trip. -




thousands of them on the water (Particularly since they are one of the
most popular sailboat ever made and are sailed in all kinds of
conditions), and if your assertions were correct, surely there would be



All kinds of conditions? Really? All kinds?



I've discussed this previously Jon. - Check my earlier notes. Mac owners
are sailing their boats all over the world in blue water, bays, Great
Lakes, the Mediterainin, waters off Austrailia, etc. .



hundreds of them breaking apart in even moderate weather conditions. To
the contrary, if you check any of the Mac discussion groups you will note
many owners who have been sailing their Macs for years in a variety of
conditions, have sailed other boats, and,when they finally trade in their
boats, often choose another Mac.



Fortunately, I only have to endure your rantings about your fine vessel. Why
would I want to listen to a bunch of other idiots. I meant to say, other
proud owners.


Because you are a troll, and that might give you opportunities to send
"Mac-bashing notes" to other Mac owners.




From what you have said, you haven't even sailed any of the recent models
of the Mac26 (e.g., the Mac 26M). Again, you really don't have any
first-hand experience with the 26M's, and the nearest experience you have
with ANY Macs were several anecdotes about Macs that seemed to be having
some type of difficulty in SFbay. (And who on this ng hasn't had
"difficulties" in some sailing conditions?)



Fortunately, no. I have not. I also have not sailed any new Swans, but I
know that by reputation they are pretty well-made.

As to anecdotes, I guess mine are just not good enough for you... sigh....



Again, you're missing the point Jon. Which was that anecdotes, such as
your stories, aren't evidence. You are bashing a boat that is enjoyed by
thousands of people, yet you have no evidence or statistics to back up
your childish rantings other than a couple of anecdotes plus "your side"
only of a purported conversation with a Mac dealer. (Again, what were
the "extensive upgrades" the dealer recommended, Jon?? A reefing
system perhaps?? VHS radio? Extra anchor line maybe? PFD's, perhaps? )
Real extensive upgrades, right Jon?



In other words, it's obvious that you really don't have anything to back
up your statements about the Macs, JG. - Stupid remarks like: "They



Sure I do, but you're not listening. I've already stated that I've seen them
"sailing" on the bay. (Quotes are significant here.)






junk and look like it" don't contribute anything useful to the ng; they
don't help anyone; and they generally short-circuit what might become a
balanced, potentially helpful discussion.



I'm not short-circuiting anything. You're the one screaming names. I'm just
pointing out that not all of us are taken in by the argument that since
1000s are sold, that makes for a good anything.



Again, you are only demonstrating your complete ignorance of the basic
principles of logic and statistics Jon. - The fact that 1000's have
been sold wasn't given as evidence that the boats are of high quality
(although they are). It was given as evidence that, if your statements
(Macs are junk) were true, then we would see hundreds of them falling
apart, foundering, etc.. Again, how many of them have "fallen apart" in
the SF bay? 200? 100? And what, exactly is the "extensive upgrade
work" the dealer recommends? Once again, you spout off those
generalities with only an anecdote to back it up. In contrast, on the
Mac discussion groups, there are many reports of Macs being sailed on
the SF Bay as well as up and down the California coast.

Where's your evidence that the Mac rigging is failing or coming apart,
Johnny? What statistics do you have on the number of Macs on which
the rigging failed?



Jon, you urgently need to take a course in basic logic. - You simply
don't get it. -




Or are you just another troll JG, as Joe noted?



Well, Joe is entitled to his opinions. At least, I respect Joe because he
sails a great boat with skill.



You obviously ARE a troll. - It's clear that you have no interest
whatsoever in any rational, balanced, factual discussion of the subject.

Jim

Good Grief... you've swallowed the hook!!!

Now it's either the pliers or the club!

CM

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Capt. JG wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


JG, please show me where I said that you said the Macs fall apart by the
hundreds,or that their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. - What I did
say, of course, was:
"JG, IF the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you wasting
all this time and cyberspace? ...... Actually, you have been having a
great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't come up with
anything at all to back up all your assertions. ARE THEY falling apart by
the hundreds all over the world JG? ARE THEIR OWNERS AND CREWS PERISHING
if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If so, why not give us
some
news reports or independent accounts about all this carnage. "



I do have a great ole time bashing them!! Admittedly, I only have my own
observations, comments from friends who have made observations, and
comments
from a dealer that they are relatively worthless as either a sailboat or a
power boat, that they are flimsy, and should not be sailed in anything but
the most protected waters, certainly inappropriate for sailing in the bay.


Actually, of course, you have very little information about, or
experience, with the current Mac 26M series. Right Jon?

Also, would you please give me the name of that particular Mac dealer
Jon? I would really like to get his side of the discussion, and compare
it with your version!




So if, as you keep saying, the Macs are "junk" or, "a pretend sailboat,"
or "a lousy boat at rip-off prices," etc., then why aren't they falling
apart by the hundreds, and why aren't their crews perishing in anything
over moderate winds? - As I have said, I don't consider them suitable



No idea... dumb luck? The owners usually wise up and sell them to some
other
fool? Please tell us!


"Dumb luck" Jon??? That just doesn't cut it. - If the boats were junk,
as you claim, then we Mac owners wouldn't be sailing them in locations
around the world, and we would get rid of our Macs as soon as we could.
- But we don't. Most of us have experience on various other boats, and
most of us enjoy sailing the Macs, which is why we keep them.


or extended blue water crossings or the like. But since there are



But, I thought you said before you left on your trip that you were going
to
do just that and you were going to take some pictures, if for no other
reason than to shut me up! Was I wrong?

Yep. You were wrong. - I didn't say anything about pictures Jon. In any
event, you need to get your story straight, beginning with what I
actually said (not what you inferred) about our cruise. - Again, my
Mac has no dining room, health club, room service, casino, etc., and my
wife came with me on this trip. -




thousands of them on the water (Particularly since they are one of the
most popular sailboat ever made and are sailed in all kinds of
conditions), and if your assertions were correct, surely there would be



All kinds of conditions? Really? All kinds?



I've discussed this previously Jon. - Check my earlier notes. Mac owners
are sailing their boats all over the world in blue water, bays, Great
Lakes, the Mediterainin, waters off Austrailia, etc. .



hundreds of them breaking apart in even moderate weather conditions. To
the contrary, if you check any of the Mac discussion groups you will note
many owners who have been sailing their Macs for years in a variety of
conditions, have sailed other boats, and,when they finally trade in their
boats, often choose another Mac.



Fortunately, I only have to endure your rantings about your fine vessel.
Why
would I want to listen to a bunch of other idiots. I meant to say, other
proud owners.


Because you are a troll, and that might give you opportunities to send
"Mac-bashing notes" to other Mac owners.




From what you have said, you haven't even sailed any of the recent models
of the Mac26 (e.g., the Mac 26M). Again, you really don't have any
first-hand experience with the 26M's, and the nearest experience you have
with ANY Macs were several anecdotes about Macs that seemed to be having
some type of difficulty in SFbay. (And who on this ng hasn't had
"difficulties" in some sailing conditions?)



Fortunately, no. I have not. I also have not sailed any new Swans, but I
know that by reputation they are pretty well-made.

As to anecdotes, I guess mine are just not good enough for you... sigh....



Again, you're missing the point Jon. Which was that anecdotes, such as
your stories, aren't evidence. You are bashing a boat that is enjoyed by
thousands of people, yet you have no evidence or statistics to back up
your childish rantings other than a couple of anecdotes plus "your side"
only of a purported conversation with a Mac dealer. (Again, what were
the "extensive upgrades" the dealer recommended, Jon?? A reefing
system perhaps?? VHS radio? Extra anchor line maybe? PFD's, perhaps? )
Real extensive upgrades, right Jon?



In other words, it's obvious that you really don't have anything to back
up your statements about the Macs, JG. - Stupid remarks like: "They



Sure I do, but you're not listening. I've already stated that I've seen
them
"sailing" on the bay. (Quotes are significant here.)






junk and look like it" don't contribute anything useful to the ng; they
don't help anyone; and they generally short-circuit what might become a
balanced, potentially helpful discussion.



I'm not short-circuiting anything. You're the one screaming names. I'm
just
pointing out that not all of us are taken in by the argument that since
1000s are sold, that makes for a good anything.



Again, you are only demonstrating your complete ignorance of the basic
principles of logic and statistics Jon. - The fact that 1000's have
been sold wasn't given as evidence that the boats are of high quality
(although they are). It was given as evidence that, if your statements
(Macs are junk) were true, then we would see hundreds of them falling
apart, foundering, etc.. Again, how many of them have "fallen apart" in
the SF bay? 200? 100? And what, exactly is the "extensive upgrade
work" the dealer recommends? Once again, you spout off those
generalities with only an anecdote to back it up. In contrast, on the
Mac discussion groups, there are many reports of Macs being sailed on
the SF Bay as well as up and down the California coast.

Where's your evidence that the Mac rigging is failing or coming apart,
Johnny? What statistics do you have on the number of Macs on which
the rigging failed?



Jon, you urgently need to take a course in basic logic. - You simply
don't get it. -




Or are you just another troll JG, as Joe noted?



Well, Joe is entitled to his opinions. At least, I respect Joe because he
sails a great boat with skill.



You obviously ARE a troll. - It's clear that you have no interest
whatsoever in any rational, balanced, factual discussion of the subject.

Jim

You're right.. zero experience on the MaccrapM! You got me there.

Sorry, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to give out his name. He loves making money from fools like you, and I wouldn't want to spoil it for him.

In your case, dumb luck is just about right! You're incredibly delusional if you think owning a MaccrapM is owning a quality boat. I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry that you think anyone is going to take you seriously.

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with you owning a boat that fits your bill for the kind of sailing you do, apparently. Just don't try to tell people who are interested in a quality boat that the MaccrapM qualifies without extensive refit. It's really pathetic and makes you look dumber than I'm sure you are.

Why would I want to send things to other MaccrapM owners? I'm sure they have enough of their own problems!

But, keep posting. It's kinda amusing. Really!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message ...


Capt. JG wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
JG, please show me where I said that you said the Macs fall apart by the
hundreds,or that their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. - What I did
say, of course, was:
"JG, IF the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you wasting
all this time and cyberspace? ...... Actually, you have been having a
great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't come up with
anything at all to back up all your assertions. ARE THEY falling apart by
the hundreds all over the world JG? ARE THEIR OWNERS AND CREWS PERISHING
if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If so, why not give us some
news reports or independent accounts about all this carnage. "

I do have a great ole time bashing them!! Admittedly, I only have my own
observations, comments from friends who have made observations, and comments
from a dealer that they are relatively worthless as either a sailboat or a
power boat, that they are flimsy, and should not be sailed in anything but
the most protected waters, certainly inappropriate for sailing in the bay.
Actually, of course, you have very little information about, or experience, with the current Mac 26M series. Right Jon?

Also, would you please give me the name of that particular Mac dealer Jon? I would really like to get his side of the discussion, and compare it with your version!


So if, as you keep saying, the Macs are "junk" or, "a pretend sailboat,"
or "a lousy boat at rip-off prices," etc., then why aren't they falling
apart by the hundreds, and why aren't their crews perishing in anything
over moderate winds? - As I have said, I don't consider them suitable

No idea... dumb luck? The owners usually wise up and sell them to some other
fool? Please tell us!
"Dumb luck" Jon??? That just doesn't cut it. - If the boats were junk, as you claim, then we Mac owners wouldn't be sailing them in locations around the world, and we would get rid of our Macs as soon as we could. - But we don't. Most of us have experience on various other boats, and most of us enjoy sailing the Macs, which is why we keep them.



or extended blue water crossings or the like. But since there are

But, I thought you said before you left on your trip that you were going to
do just that and you were going to take some pictures, if for no other
reason than to shut me up! Was I wrong? Yep. You were wrong. - I didn't say anything about pictures Jon. In any event, you need to get your story straight, beginning with what I actually said (not what you inferred) about our cruise. - Again, my Mac has no dining room, health club, room service, casino, etc., and my wife came with me on this trip. -


thousands of them on the water (Particularly since they are one of the
most popular sailboat ever made and are sailed in all kinds of
conditions), and if your assertions were correct, surely there would be

All kinds of conditions? Really? All kinds?

I've discussed this previously Jon. - Check my earlier notes. Mac owners are sailing their boats all over the world in blue water, bays, Great Lakes, the Mediterainin, waters off Austrailia, etc. .

hundreds of them breaking apart in even moderate weather conditions. To
the contrary, if you check any of the Mac discussion groups you will note
many owners who have been sailing their Macs for years in a variety of
conditions, have sailed other boats, and,when they finally trade in their
boats, often choose another Mac.

Fortunately, I only have to endure your rantings about your fine vessel. Why
would I want to listen to a bunch of other idiots. I meant to say, other
proud owners.
Because you are a troll, and that might give you opportunities to send "Mac-bashing notes" to other Mac owners.


From what you have said, you haven't even sailed any of the recent models
of the Mac26 (e.g., the Mac 26M). Again, you really don't have any
first-hand experience with the 26M's, and the nearest experience you have
with ANY Macs were several anecdotes about Macs that seemed to be having
some type of difficulty in SFbay. (And who on this ng hasn't had
"difficulties" in some sailing conditions?)

Fortunately, no. I have not. I also have not sailed any new Swans, but I
know that by reputation they are pretty well-made.

As to anecdotes, I guess mine are just not good enough for you... sigh....

Again, you're missing the point Jon. Which was that anecdotes, such as your stories, aren't evidence. You are bashing a boat that is enjoyed by thousands of people, yet you have no evidence or statistics to back up your childish rantings other than a couple of anecdotes plus "your side" only of a purported conversation with a Mac dealer. (Again, what were the "extensive upgrades" the dealer recommended, Jon?? A reefing system perhaps?? VHS radio? Extra anchor line maybe? PFD's, perhaps? ) Real extensive upgrades, right Jon?

In other words, it's obvious that you really don't have anything to back
up your statements about the Macs, JG. - Stupid remarks like: "They

Sure I do, but you're not listening. I've already stated that I've seen them
"sailing" on the bay. (Quotes are significant here.)



junk and look like it" don't contribute anything useful to the ng; they
don't help anyone; and they generally short-circuit what might become a
balanced, potentially helpful discussion.

I'm not short-circuiting anything. You're the one screaming names. I'm just
pointing out that not all of us are taken in by the argument that since
1000s are sold, that makes for a good anything.

Again, you are only demonstrating your complete ignorance of the basic principles of logic and statistics Jon. - The fact that 1000's have been sold wasn't given as evidence that the boats are of high quality (although they are). It was given as evidence that, if your statements (Macs are junk) were true, then we would see hundreds of them falling apart, foundering, etc.. Again, how many of them have "fallen apart" in the SF bay? 200? 100? And what, exactly is the "extensive upgrade work" the dealer recommends? Once again, you spout off those generalities with only an anecdote to back it up. In contrast, on the Mac discussion groups, there are many reports of Macs being sailed on the SF Bay as well as up and down the California coast.
Where's your evidence that the Mac rigging is failing or coming apart,
Johnny? What statistics do you have on the number of Macs on which
the rigging failed?

Jon, you urgently need to take a course in basic logic. - You simply don't get it. -



Or are you just another troll JG, as Joe noted?

Well, Joe is entitled to his opinions. At least, I respect Joe because he
sails a great boat with skill.

You obviously ARE a troll. - It's clear that you have no interest whatsoever in any rational, balanced, factual discussion of the subject.

Jim

Capt. JG wrote:

Come on Jim... every time you type something, you're supplying us with
facts. That's simple logic and even the owner of a wonderful MacrapM would
know that. Are you sure you own one?

Fortunately, I'm allowed to waste my time any way I want. Isn't America
great!

You're right, though. The only way to back up my assertions that they are
pieces of garbage, designed for novice sailors who don't know better, would
be to own one myself. Well, I guess you've got me there!

Please show me where I've ever said that they fall apart by the hundreds or
their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. The fact that they're cheaply built
and sail poorly (sorry, just what I've observed) says absolutely nothing
about them being appropriate for some people.
Capt. JG wrote:




JG, please show me where I said that you said the Macs fall apart by
the hundreds,or that their crew perish in winds over 15 kts. - What I
did say, of course, was:

"JG, IF the Macs are that bad, and everyone knows it, why are you
wasting all this time and cyberspace? ...... Actually, you have been
having a great old time bashing the Mac26M, but so far, you haven't
come up with anything at all to back up all your assertions. ARE THEY
falling apart by the hundreds all over the world JG? ARE THEIR OWNERS
AND CREWS PERISHING if they happen to sail in winds over 15 knots? If
so, why not give us some news reports or independent accounts about
all this carnage. "


So if, as you keep saying, the Macs are "junk" or, "a pretend
sailboat," or "a lousy boat at rip-off prices," etc., then why aren't
they falling apart by the hundreds, and why aren't their crews
perishing in anything over moderate winds? - As I have said, I don't
consider them suitable for extended blue water crossings or the like.
But since there are thousands of them on the water (Particularly
since they are one of the most popular sailboat ever made and are
sailed in all kinds of conditions), and if your assertions were
correct, surely there would be hundreds of them breaking apart in even
moderate weather conditions. To the contrary, if you check any of the
Mac discussion groups you will note many owners who have been sailing
their Macs for years in a variety of conditions, have sailed other
boats, and,when they finally trade in their boats, often choose
another Mac.


From what you have said, you haven't even sailed any of the recent
models of the Mac26 (e.g., the Mac 26M). Again, you really don't have
any first-hand experience with the 26M's, and the nearest experience
you have with ANY Macs were several anecdotes about Macs that seemed
to be having some type of difficulty in SFbay. (And who on this ng
hasn't had "difficulties" in some sailing conditions?)

In other words, it's obvious that you really don't have anything to
back up your statements about the Macs, JG. - Stupid remarks like:
"They junk and look like it" don't contribute anything useful to the
ng; they don't help anyone; and they generally short-circuit what
might become a balanced, potentially helpful discussion.

Or are you just another troll JG, as Joe noted?

Jim