I don't look at this from an economic point of view but the political
and social points of view. The question really is whether America can
remain a great power or a dominant power if it becomes a primarily
service economy, and I doubt that. A country has to have an industrial
base in order to play a significant role in the world. And I am
concerned from that point of view.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
I don't look at this from an economic point of view but the political
and social points of view. The question really is whether America can
remain a great power or a dominant power if it becomes a primarily
service economy, and I doubt that. A country has to have an industrial
base in order to play a significant role in the world. And I am
concerned from that point of view.


America is the greatest world power.

America has a service based economy.

A service based economy can be the world power.


America does have a great industrial base. Cars are a commodity, labor costs
are a big factor for commodities.

America leads in aircraft manufacturing. Aircraft are using more and more
composites so traditional machinists are being displaced.
America leads the world in financial services.
America leads the world in investment potential.
America leads the world in paper production, electrical generation, rocket
production, aluminum production, arms manufacturing, medicine,
pharmaceticals, house building, oil refining etc.

Everything America leads the world requires the workforce be highly
education. Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China - keep the Commies stupid.

I'm not worried at all. America will always be first in the hardest, most
sophisticated industrial arenas. Leave the easy stuff for foriegners.

Amen!

Everything America leads the world requires the workforce be highly
education.

You mean highly educated right?

Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China

Right , you think the Chinese are stupid and un-educated?
Your in for a rude awakening, I know of many high tech products being
designed on US software by Chinese optical engineers in china for US
made products. Why pay a Phd or Master's degreed engineer here 150K
when you can find one in China for 30K.

keep the commies stupid.


I'm not worried at all. America will always be first in the hardest,
most
sophisticated industrial arenas.

Until all of our bright kids are working at Home-Depot or Burger King
because they can not find work here.

Why? Because bean counting became priorty over making sure we remainded
the leader by training and fostering design and engineering here. It's
not just grunt labor anymore Bob.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
Everything America leads the world requires the workforce be highly
education.

You mean highly educated right?

No, education.


Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China

Right , you think the Chinese are stupid and un-educated?

As long as they stay in factory jobs.

Your in for a rude awakening, I know of many high tech products being
designed on US software by Chinese optical engineers in china for US
made products. Why pay a Phd or Master's degreed engineer here 150K
when you can find one in China for 30K.

Engineers in the US don't make 150K with either a PhD or Masters. In fact,
engineers salaries remain pretty flat after 5 years. So what are these high
tech products? What is the software?

It's not a question of pay. It's a question of productivity. If I pay an
engineer in China 30K and he produces 1M$ of value, and I pay a US engineer
150K and he produces 2M$ of value, which engineer provides the most
production? Which engineer provides the greatest return on investment? Which
is the better engineer to hire?



keep the commies stupid.


I'm not worried at all. America will always be first in the hardest,
most
sophisticated industrial arenas.

Until all of our bright kids are working at Home-Depot or Burger King
because they can not find work here.

There's plenty of work for bright kids. Smart lawyers do well, the medical
field is going gang busters. There are too many engineers in this country.
We could use about 1/3 - 1/2 as many. Why is it that everyone believes smart
kids should study science and math? All the smart kids I know that studied
science and math and are now grown up are telling their kids to avoid
engineering and science careers.



Why? Because bean counting became priorty over making sure we remainded
the leader by training and fostering design and engineering here.

What is so important about fostering design and engineering here in the US?
If it is important, increase the pay for engineers. The high paying jobs are
in finance and lawyering. Good God, entry level nurses make more than
engineers with a decade of experience.

It's
not just grunt labor anymore Bob.

Engineers are treated like grunt labor. Layoffs every few years, abuse of
overtime (60-80 hour work weeks), reduction in benefits, no continuing
education, if you are over 35 you are toast. The IT guys have it even worse.

Look at America's highest paid groups:

Movie stars/ entertainers: generally high school education, only Bill Cosby
has PhD.

Athletes: college educated, usually in some goof ball major.

Corporate CEO's : some are educated, Bill Gates did not finish college.
Education is not really a factor.

So why would someone who is smart want to work so hard for relatively so
little? An experienced engineer may make 1.5 - 2 times what the UPS guy
makes with no overtime pay and work 60 hours/week. An
entertainer/athlete/CEO makes 10-500 times what an engineer makes for the
same work hours.

America needs less engineers and scientists.


Joe

Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China

Right , you think the Chinese are stupid and un-educated?


Bob Crantz wrote:
As long as they stay in factory jobs.


Not everybody in China works in a factory!


Your in for a rude awakening, I know of many high tech products being
designed on US software by Chinese optical engineers in china for US
made products. Why pay a Phd or Master's degreed engineer here 150K
when you can find one in China for 30K.


The only postgrad engineers I know of making $150K are ones
on the Board of Directors of the companies they work for.

Joe, you're dreaming again.


Engineers in the US don't make 150K with either a PhD or Masters. In fact,
engineers salaries remain pretty flat after 5 years. So what are these high
tech products? What is the software?

I'd like to know, too.
I know a number of Chinese engineers who are moving back to
China because they can make more money there.





Look at America's highest paid groups:

Movie stars/ entertainers: generally high school education, only Bill Cosby
has PhD.

Athletes: college educated, usually in some goof ball major.

Corporate CEO's : some are educated, Bill Gates did not finish college.
Education is not really a factor.

So why would someone who is smart want to work so hard for relatively so
little? An experienced engineer may make 1.5 - 2 times what the UPS guy
makes with no overtime pay and work 60 hours/week. An
entertainer/athlete/CEO makes 10-500 times what an engineer makes for the
same work hours.

America needs less engineers and scientists.

Hmmm, an interesting conclusion.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China

Right , you think the Chinese are stupid and un-educated?


Bob Crantz wrote:
As long as they stay in factory jobs.


Not everybody in China works in a factory!

Some work in restaraunts! Or pulling rickshaws!



Your in for a rude awakening, I know of many high tech products being
designed on US software by Chinese optical engineers in china for US
made products. Why pay a Phd or Master's degreed engineer here 150K
when you can find one in China for 30K.


The only postgrad engineers I know of making $150K are ones
on the Board of Directors of the companies they work for.

Or own their own company.


Joe, you're dreaming again.


Engineers in the US don't make 150K with either a PhD or Masters. In
fact,
engineers salaries remain pretty flat after 5 years. So what are these
high
tech products? What is the software?

I'd like to know, too.
I know a number of Chinese engineers who are moving back to
China because they can make more money there.

I also know of engineers who left the country for higher pay and better
working conditions.





Look at America's highest paid groups:

Movie stars/ entertainers: generally high school education, only Bill
Cosby
has PhD.

Athletes: college educated, usually in some goof ball major.

Corporate CEO's : some are educated, Bill Gates did not finish college.
Education is not really a factor.

So why would someone who is smart want to work so hard for relatively so
little? An experienced engineer may make 1.5 - 2 times what the UPS guy
makes with no overtime pay and work 60 hours/week. An
entertainer/athlete/CEO makes 10-500 times what an engineer makes for
the
same work hours.

America needs less engineers and scientists.

Hmmm, an interesting conclusion.

The pay is low because the supply is great. The claims of engineer shortage
is misleading. There are plenty of engineers. The shortage is of ones that
are real cheap.

Look through the engineering ads. How often do you see one asking for 20-30
years experience? 99% want entry level or 5-7 years tops.

It's the employers that cry about shortages. They don't want to pay and they
don't want to (God forbid!) invest in training or education.

If there were less engineers and scientists, there would be less
unemployment.




DSK

America needs less engineers and scientists.

Hmmm, an interesting conclusion.


Bob Crantz wrote:
The pay is low because the supply is great. The claims of engineer shortage
is misleading. There are plenty of engineers. The shortage is of ones that
are real cheap.


The shortage is of *good* ones that will work cheaply enough
to convince an army of beancounters to keep work here in the
U.S.


Look through the engineering ads. How often do you see one asking for 20-30
years experience? 99% want entry level or 5-7 years tops.


Honestly don't know, I am lucky enough to have not needed to
look for a job in years. In fact over a decade now, a
personal record


It's the employers that cry about shortages. They don't want to pay and they
don't want to (God forbid!) invest in training or education.


That's true.

If there were less engineers and scientists, there would be less
unemployment.


Also true if there were less people. And we know how to
solve that, don't we!

DSK

Doug, I own a recruiting firm that places engineers.
If you like..... I will be happy to send you information to your
e-mail account.


Joe

Joe wrote:

Doug, I own a recruiting firm that places engineers.
If you like..... I will be happy to send you information to your
e-mail account.



OK

Make sure you include the ones specifying Masters+ and
paying $150K and up.

Got my email addy?

DSK

What kind of engineers?



"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doug, I own a recruiting firm that places engineers.
If you like..... I will be happy to send you information to your
e-mail account.


Joe