"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

You know nothing about the Cal, obviously. It was designed for sailing
on the SF bay, and handles heavy air with out a problem. It's a
relatively dry boat for its size and has a very decent interior, with,
as I said room for three if necessary. Cals have crossed the Pacific
more than a few times.


I've sailed them... they suck and not one Cal 20 has crossed the Pacific. A
Nordica 20 though has crossed the North Atlantic. They are cheap and
worthless as the asking price shows!


Why the heck would I want the weight of an inboard engine on a 20 foot
boat???

WTF are you on about.... it's a 150 lb engine!! It's not like you're
frickin' car-topping you IDIOT!

That's crazy. I suppose the Nordica 20 has 6 foot headroom

You suppose wrong... then again that's no surprise.

also. New ones are wildly expensive... $15K,

You dipstick... they have been out of production since 1985 and average at
about 7K Cdn

whereas you can get a Cal
20 that is near perfect for under $2K.

Because it's a POS!!!

The Cal will kick your butt all
over the bay and back. You wouldn't stand a chance.

I just told you I beat Cal 20s all the time in a full keeler. Those Cal 20s
suck backwash. They are wet, sail poorly and are a poor choice for anything
but a day sail.


Like the Nordica has a modern one.... right, sure.

It's a full keel cut-away forefoot.... did you even go to the site I
indicated?


The Cal's keel was way a head of its time. And, it still performs
better than many newer boats.

What a load of desperate CRAP! It's dated, a slug and useless for anything
but short daysails in very protected waters. A MacGregor 19 is a better boat
than your crappy Cal 20


Ok. Now, it's time for you to make a personal attack....

You're GAY!!


CM

In article Y0Lgf.207490$ir4.172254@edtnps90,
Capt.Mooron wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

You know nothing about the Cal, obviously. It was designed for sailing
on the SF bay, and handles heavy air with out a problem. It's a
relatively dry boat for its size and has a very decent interior, with,
as I said room for three if necessary. Cals have crossed the Pacific
more than a few times.

I've sailed them... they suck and not one Cal 20 has crossed the Pacific. A
Nordica 20 though has crossed the North Atlantic. They are cheap and
worthless as the asking price shows!

I guess John Vigor is wrong...

Bull****. I bet you haven't but claim you did.

Why the heck would I want the weight of an inboard engine on a 20 foot
boat???

WTF are you on about.... it's a 150 lb engine!! It's not like you're
frickin' car-topping you IDIOT!

That's a lot for a 20 ft boat!

That's crazy. I suppose the Nordica 20 has 6 foot headroom

You suppose wrong... then again that's no surprise.

But, it's big enough for a jerk like you! Your ego is at least that
big.

also. New ones are wildly expensive... $15K,

You dipstick... they have been out of production since 1985 and average at
about 7K Cdn

That's still wildly more than a Cal 20.

whereas you can get a Cal
20 that is near perfect for under $2K.

Because it's a POS!!!

You're an expert on POS. I defer to you.

The Cal will kick your butt all
over the bay and back. You wouldn't stand a chance.

I just told you I beat Cal 20s all the time in a full keeler. Those Cal 20s
suck backwash. They are wet, sail poorly and are a poor choice for anything
but a day sail.

BS. You know nothing about Cals.

Like the Nordica has a modern one.... right, sure.

It's a full keel cut-away forefoot.... did you even go to the site I
indicated?

It's not a modern design. Sorry.

The Cal's keel was way a head of its time. And, it still performs
better than many newer boats.

What a load of desperate CRAP! It's dated, a slug and useless for anything
but short daysails in very protected waters. A MacGregor 19 is a better boat
than your crappy Cal 20

Sure, whatever you say.

Ok. Now, it's time for you to make a personal attack....

You're GAY!!

Still angry at being thrown off Usenet I see. What did you do that
your ISP tossed you? Please tell us.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt.Mooron wrote:
I've sailed them... they suck and not one Cal 20 has crossed the Pacific

Depends on how you define. A few have sailed to Hawaii,
which is offically termed a TransPac by many.


... A
Nordica 20 though has crossed the North Atlantic.

So has at least one Cal 20, there was a magazine article
about it. 2 college kids, one of whom later went on record
describing the trip as "crazy" and saying he'd never do it
again.

But it's possible, because it's been done.



Why the heck would I want the weight of an inboard engine on a 20 foot
boat???


WTF are you on about.... it's a 150 lb engine!! It's not like you're
frickin' car-topping you IDIOT!


Yep

Depnds on the boat. A Cal 20 is not all that light weight,
it could easily benefit from an inboard.





I just told you I beat Cal 20s all the time in a full keeler.

A 30 footer? Possible. Probably not downwind though. They
will plane nicely.


The Cal's keel was way a head of its time. And, it still performs
better than many newer boats.


hmm, that's a bit of an exaggeration IMHO


What a load of desperate CRAP! It's dated, a slug and useless for anything
but short daysails in very protected waters. A MacGregor 19 is a better boat
than your crappy Cal 20


OK, that's a LOT of an exaggeration. Was your mom scared by
a fin keel just before you were born, or something??


Ok. Now, it's time for you to make a personal attack....


You're GAY!!


Why don't you two get a room?

The Cal 20 is a nice boat, but it's not really trailerable
unless you have either a perfect ramp or a lift, and don't
mind setting up a more complex rig. And I'm sorry Mooron,
I've sailed in company with a Halman and there's no way in
heck one of those is going to keep up with a Cal 20.

BTW how about one of these
http://www.selectyachts.co.uk/crabbershome.asp?ArtID=5

http://www.boatshow.com/CornishShrimper.html

This is one of the boats that Navvie (remember him?)
insisted should be considered in his wager that he could
name a more seaworthy 15 footer...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

A 30 footer? Possible. Probably not downwind though. They will plane
nicely.

No.. I beat him easily with my Nordica 20.... he was one of those whiny
sailors... you know... like Ganz! Going on and on about PHRF and windward
ability. A text book sailor....

OK, that's a LOT of an exaggeration. Was your mom scared by a fin keel
just before you were born, or something??


Fin Keelers are okay... if you can't get a real sailboat! :-)


The Cal 20 is a nice boat, but it's not really trailerable unless you have
either a perfect ramp or a lift, and don't mind setting up a more
complex rig. And I'm sorry Mooron, I've sailed in company with a Halman
and there's no way in heck one of those is going to keep up with a Cal 20.

Like we've stated here before... it's not the boat ... it's the sailor. I
have easily bested a Cal 20 on many occasions with my Nordica 20.

BTW how about one of these
http://www.selectyachts.co.uk/crabbershome.asp?ArtID=5

http://www.boatshow.com/CornishShrimper.html

This is one of the boats that Navvie (remember him?) insisted should be
considered in his wager that he could name a more seaworthy 15 footer...

They look okay... but I don't have any practical experience with either of
them. I do however have experience with a Cal 20..... it sucks! I've sailed
them and have been left with less than a good impression of the vessel's
abilities.

Look Doug... a fin keeler that can be overtaken by a full keeler to windward
is beyond skill sets... it just illustrates a design problem that can't be
compensated for by skill. The Cal 20 and Catalina 22 I regularly trounced
both were in a quandary as to how I managed it. No it wasn't the inboard.
There was a 17 ft fin keeler that always beat the Cal 20.

There was even the time that I sailed through the fleet on the Wednesday
Night Race [I wasn't in the race that night and yes going in their
direction] ... towing a 10ft inflatable dinghy with a 15hp outboard with my
30 footer. Now that settled a lot of conjectures as to my vessel's
abilities.

CM

In article hYLgf.158916$Io.90437@clgrps13,
Capt.Mooron wrote:
A 30 footer? Possible. Probably not downwind though. They will plane
nicely.

No.. I beat him easily with my Nordica 20.... he was one of those whiny
sailors... you know... like Ganz! Going on and on about PHRF and windward
ability. A text book sailor....

Sounds to me like you're the winning whiner.

The Cal 20 is a nice boat, but it's not really trailerable unless you have
either a perfect ramp or a lift, and don't mind setting up a more
complex rig. And I'm sorry Mooron, I've sailed in company with a Halman
and there's no way in heck one of those is going to keep up with a Cal 20.

Like we've stated here before... it's not the boat ... it's the sailor. I
have easily bested a Cal 20 on many occasions with my Nordica 20.

More bs. Gee, you're great at it!

They look okay... but I don't have any practical experience with either of
them. I do however have experience with a Cal 20..... it sucks! I've sailed
them and have been left with less than a good impression of the vessel's
abilities.

No you don't.

Look Doug... a fin keeler that can be overtaken by a full keeler to windward
is beyond skill sets... it just illustrates a design problem that can't be
compensated for by skill. The Cal 20 and Catalina 22 I regularly trounced
both were in a quandary as to how I managed it. No it wasn't the inboard.
There was a 17 ft fin keeler that always beat the Cal 20.

There's no comparison between the Cal and the Cat. More proof that you
don't know what you're talking about.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

A 30 footer? Possible. Probably not downwind though. They will plane
nicely.


Capt.Mooron wrote:
No.. I beat him easily with my Nordica 20....

After tying a bucket to his keel? Actually it would probably
take 2 buckets...


Like we've stated here before... it's not the boat ... it's the sailor. I
have easily bested a Cal 20 on many occasions with my Nordica 20.


That's possible, we beat a number of bigger & theoretically
faster boats in our lowly Hunter 19.

It's also possible there was something wrong with the boat.
Have you sailed against more than one Cal 20? Any one-design
fleets? Before making such a sweeping condemnation (even if
it does have a fin keel) you should check out more than a
single one.

Not that the Cal 20 is the boat of the century, but they're OK.



Look Doug... a fin keeler that can be overtaken by a full keeler to windward
is beyond skill sets... it just illustrates a design problem that can't be
compensated for by skill.

Very likely, and that's why I suggest there might have been
something wrong with that particular boat. Cal 20s are just
plain not as slow as you say.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

It's also possible there was something wrong with the boat. Have you
sailed against more than one Cal 20?


It was only the one sailed by an "instructor".... but then again how could
you interpret any of my replies to Ganz as serious, truthful or factual?

Let's face it.. Ganz is a whiny crybaby with no sense of humour.

CM

Capt.Mooron wrote:
It was only the one sailed by an "instructor".... but then again how could
you interpret any of my replies to Ganz as serious, truthful or factual?


Because we know that you really really hate fin keels?

Let's face it.. Ganz is a whiny crybaby with no sense of humour.


Maybe so, maybe not... at least he's not like Boobsie.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Capt.Mooron wrote:
It was only the one sailed by an "instructor".... but then again how
could you interpret any of my replies to Ganz as serious, truthful or
factual?


Because we know that you really really hate fin keels?

Not really... I'm just expected to show a modicum of disdain towards less
capable vessels


Maybe so, maybe not... at least he's not like Boobsie.

Correct... Ganz takes himself way too seriously... Bobsprit is a running gag
and he's aware of that.

You seem to forget Ganz's "off the deep end" near rabid attacks from last
year... never mind that Bobsprit has never reported me for calling him Gay!

CM

Mooron can't do anything more than bluster. He's very bitter guy. I'm sorry
for him.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Capt.Mooron wrote:
It was only the one sailed by an "instructor".... but then again how
could you interpret any of my replies to Ganz as serious, truthful or
factual?


Because we know that you really really hate fin keels?

Let's face it.. Ganz is a whiny crybaby with no sense of humour.


Maybe so, maybe not... at least he's not like Boobsie.

DSK