"Thom Stewart" wrote in message

Great Lakes:

They are Lakes! They are huge bodies of water! Bigger than a lot of
seas! Can be very tough in a bad weather! That doesn't make them
anything but a Lake.

And why is that, Thom? Upon whose definition of bodies of water do you base
that tidbit of insight?

They are not at sea level. They have no tides.

Actually they do have tides, albiet almost imperceptible. Near the equator
the oceans have very little tide. So what?

The flow of water is
always in the same direction, The outlet is always the same. That is
because they are Lakes.

I'll grant you that. But I was unaware that flow had much, if anything, to
do with the definition of the term lake. Many lakes have no flow whatever.
White Lake, where we sail, is really just a wide spot in the White River.
And Lake Monroe, in southern Indiana, is really just a reservoir created by
damming a river. Lake is a highly relative term.

Why must they be classified as a Sea?

Dunno. No one said they must. In fact, IIRC they are called lakes.

They are Lakes. Lakes to be damn
proud of! They are superior Bodies of Water, with their own weather
systems. They have their own ship traveling commerce that is busier than
most seas in the world.
They are a wonder of nature as they are.
What have they to gain by being labelled a sea?

Nothing. But when attempting to explain their characteristics, the term
*lake* typically conjurs placid waters with waterfowl floating about the
lilly pads and bluegill jumping to catch mayflies. The GLs are nothing like
that. Folks who see them for the first time are impressed that one cannot
see across to the other shore, or that they can be so malevolent. By
equating them to seas gives those who haven't seen 'em a better perspective.
But to my knowledge there is no movement underway to force a name change.
Although there was a movement some years ago to label Lake Champlain in NY
and VT the Sixth Great Lake. Most people said, "hogwash."

Max

OzOne wrote in message

Well said Thom.
I believe that calling them "seas" is purely a vanity thing....the
sailors like to think they've been to sea.

They should just accept that they are lake sailors.

What gave you the impression that we think we are anything but "lake
sailors?" We never denied it; to the contrary we are proud of it. But the
characteristics of the GLs are often more aptly described by the behavior of
a sea than what one generally thinks of with the term *lake.* Many salty
pilots find themselves in a world of hurt in the GLs after crossing the
Atlantic and adopting a feeling of relative security, now that they are on
just a bunch of big *lakes.* The survivors go back across the pond, tail
between their legs, telling everyone in Europe and Asia about the malignant
inland "seas" in the American East and Midwest.

Max

The meteorology is the thing....it is so changeable that it is difficult to
get an accurate forecast...the Great Lakes region is known by NOAA to have
some of the most challenging meteorological problems in the world....there
is one section of Lake Michigan, the Little Pointe Sable area, that defies
forecasting...the rest of the lake can be perking right along in a normal
fashion and you get within a mile of this area and all hell breaks
lose...the topography of the land does a lot to make this happen, as does
the corresponding topography over in WI....confused water, freaky wind
patterns...our own little "rounding the Horn"...add to that the windstorms
that we get off the great plains and the humidity levels that produce huge
convection storms, it can be a real picnic out there...one year we were
toodling along quite happily and all of a sudden this black roll cloud
appeared in the west...there had been no forecast of any violent frontal
movements and the sun had been shining. We ran for our foulies and reduced
sail. Ever been pelted by 1/2 inch hail? Was not a fun experience....and
within 10 minutes of winds leaping from a lovely 10 to 35 ...and then it was
over....summer squall...

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:50:21 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message

Well said Thom.
I believe that calling them "seas" is purely a vanity thing....the
sailors like to think they've been to sea.

They should just accept that they are lake sailors.

What gave you the impression that we think we are anything but "lake
sailors?" We never denied it; to the contrary we are proud of it. But
the
characteristics of the GLs are often more aptly described by the behavior
of
a sea than what one generally thinks of with the term *lake.* Many salty
pilots find themselves in a world of hurt in the GLs after crossing the
Atlantic and adopting a feeling of relative security, now that they are on
just a bunch of big *lakes.* The survivors go back across the pond, tail
between their legs, telling everyone in Europe and Asia about the
malignant
inland "seas" in the American East and Midwest.

Max

Only thing I see is the long long fetch and shallow areas that would
produce some really scary waves....plus the fact that it's always so
frickin cold!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Large wave behind the tanker with the lightning bolt.


"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
At least one picture is fake.

I have to admit that one or two surprised me.

Which one do you think is a fake?



Regards


Donal
--

It looks like a container ship with COM... on the side.

Two lightning strikes, spray off the wavetops, lighting, observation angle,
plus the ship is a model gives it all away. Too bad other "seasoned" sailors
didn't catch it.

Amen!

BC

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
At least one picture is fake.

I have to admit that one or two surprised me.

Which one do you think is a fake?



Regards


Donal
--

I've got more time in the Gulf Stream than you have
in your boat. Anyone familiar with the Gulf Stream
knows full well that the seas there grow to stupendous
proportions when the wind is against the current.

I've sailed in waves as large as those shown in some
of those pictures and had no trouble controlling my
yacht. It's all about a balanced sail plan and the
proper square footage of sail for the wind conditions.

Your statements prove to me that you NEVER have
sailed in large seas because if you had you would
know that most of the hype about them is just hype.

You would also know that the ride in a small, properly
sailed yacht in the 27-30 foot range is very much more
comfortable than the motion on larger motor vessels
that pitch, roll and yaw in an almost uncontrollable
manner.

Pitching in a small vessel such as mine is worse in a
heavy chop in shallow water than it is in large seas
the period of which is long enough that pitching is
barely noticed. In heavy winds and seas I do not
attempt to go to weather. I'm not stupid so I go
off the wind enough to make things as comfortable as
possible.

Screaming into the trough is stupid and unnecessary.
Why do you do it? I do not. It is easy to sail across
the wind so the trough comes at your vessel at an
oblique enough angle to eliminate the danger of a
broach. Another thing, again, is that balanced sail
plan. Any time I see a monohull sloop attempting to
sail under mainsail alone like the photo that was
posted I quickly understand that the skipper of that
vessel has forgotten how to balance the helm no
matter how great a reputation he or his vessel
might enjoy. You cannot possibly look at a picture
of a vessel being tossed sideways because it
cannot be sailed because of an unbalanced
sail plan and conclude anything other than the
captain and crew is either not paying attention
or they are just plain lazy and inept.

Those are the facts. I could care less if you
agree with them or not. You are an amateur compared
to me. Anybody who uses Maxprop for a name is no
sailor.

Go motor up and down the Intracoastal with Mr. King
and the other trawler sailors.

CN

"Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

Not so! Those huge waves have little effect upon a small
yacht under a reasonable press of sail to keep her stable.

This statement clearly demonstrates that you've never been in much of a
seaway in a small vessel, despite what you claim. Roll, controlled by sail
pressure, has very little to do with it. Pitch is the problem. It's like
riding a roller coaster--if one isn't belted in to a coaster, the odds of
flying out of the car are good. Same with a small vessel cresting waves and
then plummeting into the trough of steep, tall waves. And if the sea is
confused, no amount of wind pressure on the sails will stop a vessel from
rolling violently as well. Add that to the roller coaster effect and you've
got your basic Maytag dryer set on high.

Of course, in those conditions, the yacht will be sailing
off the wind so the period of the waves becomes longer.

The vessel will be sailing off the wind only if she is not attempting to
claw off and away from a lee shore. Of course then the issue of broaching
comes to the fore. Most yachts do best when running with steep waves while
towing lines or a sea anchor. Screaming into a trough on the diagonal is a
quick and dirty recipe for a broach.

The properly sailed small yacht will only be bothered
but the breakers atop those huge waves.

LOL. You really haven't been there, have you?

Those breakers
tend to slosh green water into the cockpit, I have found.
One must always keep the washboard in and battened
down.


Those idiot motorvessels seem to be pounding straight
into the waves which seems stupid to me. Why don't they
fall off a bit and take the waves diagonally. They would
have a smoother ride and might even be able to make
some headway.

Primarily because steeply-pitched waves can roll a planing craft over on its
beam ends just after cresting a steep wave, especially if the boat is either
relatively short in length or narrow of beam though longer. Of course
running with the sea or heading into it can pitchpole a small planing vessel
as well. Frankly big, steep waves are no place to be in a smallish
powerboat.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net...
I just love it. CN, from his tiny Coronado on a mooring somewhere in FL,
criticizing a crew racing the Hobart. Stretches one's incredulity, it does.



It is clear from the picture that the so-called crew is inept. You don't
sail a boat sideways if you have any skill at all. You don't sail with
an unbalanced sail plan if you expect to have any control at the helm.

Had I been in charge of that boat, it would have had a 50% jib up
to balance out the reefed mainsail. I would have been going forward -
not sideways. What makes you think any race crew knows what they
are doing when the picture clearly shows their obvious ineptitude?

CN

OzOne wrote in message ...
'The Sled' is actually not doing Hobart this year, I believe she's
racing North instead but many of her crew will go south in other
yachts.
Built as a downwind flyer, hence the Bobsled name, when she was
launched she had a small problem with her keel wich caused the entire
boat to literally buzz when surfing over 25kts....very uncomfortable.


Not doing the Hobart this year? Surprise, surprise!

Who can blame them for sparing themselves further humiliation for
their ignorance of sailing basics such a using a balanced sail plan
reefed down for the conditions.

The buzz that crew felt was most likely from cannabis.

CN

"Maxprop" wrote in message nk.net...

Actually they do have tides, albiet almost imperceptible. Near the equator
the oceans have very little tide. So what?


Bwahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahah! Lord but you are ignorant. What makes
you think there is very little tide near the Equator?

Simple physics proves how stupid your statement really is. The pull of
gravity from the Moon and Sun raises the tides. The pull is the even
greater at the Equator than at higher latitudes because the Earth
surface at the Equator is closer to the Moon and Sun than the higher
latitudes. Hence gravity is slightly stronger there, hence the tides
are actually higher.

Some sailor you are! Go stand in the corner.

CN

"katysails" wrote in message ...
The meteorology is the thing....it is so changeable that it is difficult to
get an accurate forecast...the Great Lakes region is known by NOAA to have
some of the most challenging meteorological problems in the world....there
is one section of Lake Michigan, the Little Pointe Sable area, that defies
forecasting...the rest of the lake can be perking right along in a normal
fashion and you get within a mile of this area and all hell breaks
lose...the topography of the land does a lot to make this happen, as does
the corresponding topography over in WI....confused water, freaky wind
patterns...our own little "rounding the Horn"...add to that the windstorms
that we get off the great plains and the humidity levels that produce huge
convection storms, it can be a real picnic out there...one year we were
toodling along quite happily and all of a sudden this black roll cloud
appeared in the west...there had been no forecast of any violent frontal
movements and the sun had been shining. We ran for our foulies and reduced
sail. Ever been pelted by 1/2 inch hail? Was not a fun experience....and
within 10 minutes of winds leaping from a lovely 10 to 35 ...and then it was
over....summer squall...


Oh my! Thirty-five mile per hour winds! Surely winds such as that will
strip the flesh from one's bones. Bwahahahhahahahhhahhhaha aha ha hahh
ahah ah hah ah ha ha hah ha ha hh aahahhahah ah hah aah !

C'mon, Katy. Thirty-five mph winds are fair winds for us Trade Wind
sailors. Learn how to reef your sails quickly and carry on.

CN