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"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net... "JG" wrote in message "Maxprop" wrote in message "JG" wrote in message Yup, you're clearly very upset with me. Why's that? You really do need to seek some professional help, Jon. Starting to rant there Maxipad? You keep saying the same thing over and over. |
nice pics Doug
Scout "DSK" wrote in message ... Lady Pilot wrote: Thanks for the pictures, Doug. LP (nice boat) You're welcome. DSK |
What's wrong with Jeanneau? That name has gone on a lot of different boats
built in different plants. Some are very respectably well-built. Maxprop wrote: They aren't bad, but they really are no better than Beneteau or Dufour. Did you not process that above info some how? You may have checked out a Jeanneau built for charter, or a BenT built in SC to compete with Hunters & Catalinas. Listen carefully- not *all* Jeanneaus were built by the same people same plant etc etc. Got it? Some Jeanneaus are quite well built. For a while they were building semi-custom boats with Kevlar hulls. Robert Perry once wrote that a Jeanneau he sailed was "one of the best built boats I've seen." They are all boats priced to sell in a range that is similar to or slightly more than Catalina and Hunter boats. No, they're not. I think there is relatively little point in comparing custom built boats to mass-produced ones. Granted some of them are custom or semi-custom. Especially Morris, Hinckley, Shannon, and Kantor. The others are generally production boats, but far from the production levels as, say, Beneteau, which is the largest producer of yachts in the world. You can build a lot and still build well. You can also build custom boats that are crap. It all depends on where the money goes. That said, the best built boat I have ever personally inspected was an Oyster. But Kirie has also done impressive job on many of their boats, and the Dufour built Dynamique is the equal of any other semi-custom you can name. Haven't seen the Dynamique--only photos. Agreed that Oyster is an impressive boat. The finest boat I've ever seen was a Stellar, unless we're talking about megayachts. Never heard of a Stellar. The Oyster was extremely impressive. It was like a textbook example of how to build a boat perfectly. The Fleming line of motor yachts is also quite impressively well built. Max your emotional commitment to political jokes is getting the better of you again.... Huh? Re-naming your French fries? DSK |
To some extent, yes. However when the horsepower available is far in
excess of anything the prop & the hull are going to keep up with, then what is the purpose? Maxprop wrote: You're preaching to the choir on this point. But to make conversation, some folks just seem to thrive on power, despite the skewed relationship between power vs. hull design vs. displacement, etc. Sure. I love horsepower, but it should have some purpose. Driving an F1 car to the grocery store makes no sense at all. Boats with huge amounts of horsepower which don't do anything except make loud noise & burn fuel is kind of pointless & stupid. ... I demo'd a Nordic Tug 37 this past summer and was impressed by how fast the thing could actually go when planing. But it threw a monstrous wake, was noisy, and would probably get to a typical destination only about half an hour faster than if at hull speed. The premium, however, was fuel cost: about 6 times that of 8kts. for roughly twice the speed. Not a good trade, IMO. Agreed. But the Nordic Tugs have always been overpowered, it's just been getting silly lately. The worst part of the trade-off is that to get that "high speed" capability, you make the boat a lot heavier, more expensive, sacrifice steering at low speed, make more wake at low speed, and give up a lot of internal volume to engine & fuel. Nope. It will be in the 40'-44' range, which should easily do 7kts. under power, and somewhat better under sail in the right conditions. We've looked at a Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41, a Passport (Perry) 40, and a Baltic Doug Peterson 42, any of which would fit the bill. Look at a Nordic 40 or 44. Another Perry design. The Baltic DP is a great boat. There are a lot of better boats available *much* cheaper IMHO. The quality of the Sagas is excellent Not my impression of them. Have you looked carefully in all the nooks & crannies? ... and they are very fast for boats with such an accomodating cruising interior. Again I disagree. They're pretty fast, but not to touch a *fast* 43 footer. And they're not all that roomy, they're too narrow. Makes them tender, too. I understand there is a Saga 43 that sails to a 78 PHRF rating on the Chesapeake, but the one here that I've sailed would have a hard time being competitive at 100+. And that's not fast for a 40+ footer. But I should be careful, we have a friends with one. It's a really really nice boat. For the money, they could have had a Baltic or Dynamique, but they are happy with the Saga and that's what counts. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
"DSK" wrote
I love horsepower, but it should have some purpose. Driving an F1 car to the grocery store makes no sense at all. Boats with huge amounts of horsepower which don't do anything except make loud noise & burn fuel is kind of pointless & stupid. This is America, where people buy Hummers to drive to the mall. -- Merry Christmas...... Scotty |
"Scout" wrote: Hey Donal, I just sold one of my bikes to one of your countrymen at http://www.barronbikes.com/ Scout How could you sell a motorcyle to Ireland when you live in the USA? Are shipping costs that low nowadays? LP |
"Capt. Neal®" wrote: "Lady Pilot" wrote : "Capt. Neal®" wrote: "Lady Pilot" wrote: "Joe" wrote I was going to get Bob a directing job fiming the flick version but after his dis'n me as bb Im not so sure. Let me know if you ever get the movie project off the ground. I have a friend that might be interested. He was co-Producer on the Godfather III. He's back home now in OKC. Last time we had dinner together he was working on a movie about Wiley Post and was needing technical advise on stunt pilots, etc. http://theoscarsite.com/whoswho5/frederickson_g.htm Of course for my help, you will have to get me an actor's role in the movie. :-) LP Oh oh! Maybe BinaryBill is right about your being a man. A woman would surely ask for an actress role, not an actor's role. Only in your dreams, cedar bucket boy... Maybe you've been out to sea too long, sailor. Do you call your mailman a mailwoman? Maybe you should get up with the times, and I quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor A female actor is an actress, although an increasingly large group feel that the term "actor" should be redefined as being gender-neutral and used for both men and women. I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Maybe you ate too much Key Lime Pie? LP Ah Hah! Caught you in yet another inconsistency, dear *Lady* Pilot. No you didn't... In previous posts, you claim to be a conservative woman. Yet, in this post, you are embracing and advocating for liberal politically correct speech. How can this be? I suppose you will also get upset if I hold a door open for you? I would be elated for you to hold the door open for me, Captain. If you didn't I wouldn't think so highly of you than I do now. First, she's a conservative woman. Now, she's a conservative woman with a liberal bent. It follows that she could easily be a liberal man. Good Grief! You have heard my voice and you still make scripts for plays like you do? rofl Gotcha! You probably wish in your dreams that you Gotcha any warm attractive female body that crosses your path... CN (too intelligent to be fooled by any sock) Did you forget my address, again? LP ;-) |
"Scout" wrote: "Capt. Neal®" wrote CN (too intelligent to be fooled by any sock) Let he who has never been thrilled by a sock cast the first stone! Scout Amen! LP |
"DSK" wrote in message Maxprop wrote: Nope. It will be in the 40'-44' range, which should easily do 7kts. under power, and somewhat better under sail in the right conditions. We've looked at a Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41, a Passport (Perry) 40, and a Baltic Doug Peterson 42, any of which would fit the bill. Look at a Nordic 40 or 44. Another Perry design. I remember when those boats first hit the market, and they looked great. Unfortunately they seem rather rare. None anywhere around here, and not too many on Yachtworld.com either. The Baltic DP is a great boat. The one we saw was a bit beat up, but could be reconditioned. I'd like to find a better example. We also saw a Baltic J/V and it, too, was a touch under the weather. The Baltics are among our first choices for a replacement to our current boat. The quality of the Sagas is excellent Not my impression of them. Have you looked carefully in all the nooks & crannies? Not really. A friend has an '02 Saga 43, and on the surface it looks like a quality machine, but we didn't actually did into the boat. It is very fast, however, and handles wonderfully in a trailing sea. ... and they are very fast for boats with such an accomodating cruising interior. Again I disagree. They're pretty fast, but not to touch a *fast* 43 footer. And they're not all that roomy, they're too narrow. Makes them tender, too. I didn't detect this when sailing our friend's boat. We had 20-30kts. with 5-7' rollers on the port quarter for a 35 statute mile trip, which we made in just over 3 hours, pierhead to pierhead. I tend to favor narrower boats for some reason. Perhaps it has something to do with watching all the newer, beamier plastic fantastics pushing tons of water out of the way, leaving a substantial wake, dragging transoms, etc. Probably a visceral reaction, rather than one based upon facts and performance. I understand there is a Saga 43 that sails to a 78 PHRF rating on the Chesapeake, but the one here that I've sailed would have a hard time being competitive at 100+. And that's not fast for a 40+ footer. But I should be careful, we have a friends with one. It's a really really nice boat. For the money, they could have had a Baltic or Dynamique, but they are happy with the Saga and that's what counts. As I mentioned earlier, they're all too new for us to consider. I'm not willing to take the whopping first several years' depreciation on any boat, so we're not considering anything newer than roughly eight years old. No Sagas in that category. I'd rather have a Swan or Baltic anyway. And I just got a lead on a pristine Passport 40 today. We'll take a look at it when the snow begins to melt, if it's still available. Max |
"DSK" wrote in message What's wrong with Jeanneau? That name has gone on a lot of different boats built in different plants. Some are very respectably well-built. Maxprop wrote: They aren't bad, but they really are no better than Beneteau or Dufour. Did you not process that above info some how? You may have checked out a Jeanneau built for charter, or a BenT built in SC to compete with Hunters & Catalinas. Listen carefully- not *all* Jeanneaus were built by the same people same plant etc etc. Got it? Some Jeanneaus are quite well built. For a while they were building semi-custom boats with Kevlar hulls. Robert Perry once wrote that a Jeanneau he sailed was "one of the best built boats I've seen." Your derision of my comment makes the presumption that I might actually give a rat's posterior about Jeanneau boats enough to research them and determine which are made where and in what manner. You may be rest assured that I don't. But for the sake of discussion, I've seen roughly 20 Jeanneaus over the past 20 years. Some were smaller, rather austere-looking cruisers, and some were more opulent, such as the 54 I was on this past August. And I'd have to conclude that they all seemed to come from the same basic design philosophy, which is, essentially, that they are built to a price, not built to a superior quality level and priced accordingly. All were Bendytoy-quality boats, at least to my eyes. Bob Perry knows far more about boats than I'll ever know, so I'll defer to his evaluation. However, if Jeanneau truly makes semi-custom boats of superior quality, they are succeeding at keeping it a well-guarded secret. They are all boats priced to sell in a range that is similar to or slightly more than Catalina and Hunter boats. No, they're not. Granted some of them are custom or semi-custom. Especially Morris, Hinckley, Shannon, and Kantor. The others are generally production boats, but far from the production levels as, say, Beneteau, which is the largest producer of yachts in the world. You can build a lot and still build well. You can also build custom boats that are crap. It all depends on where the money goes. True, but you cite the exceptions rather than the rule. The boats I've named above have absolutely no reputation for building "crap." The boats you seem to be defending have a lengthy reputation for building cookie-cutter boats for the low-end market and for the charter market. Haven't seen the Dynamique--only photos. Agreed that Oyster is an impressive boat. The finest boat I've ever seen was a Stellar, unless we're talking about megayachts. Never heard of a Stellar. Custom. Premium in every respect. Similar in design and appearance to some of the newer Trintellas. Not sure where they're made. The Oyster was extremely impressive. It was like a textbook example of how to build a boat perfectly. The Fleming line of motor yachts is also quite impressively well built. I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice. Not exactly my thing, however. Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most impressive, especially considering the price. Re-naming your French fries? LOL. Nah--I've always called them "Frogs." At least I capitalize it. Max |
"Lady Pilot" wrote in message news:TAqzd.28183$F25.19580@okepread07... Only in your dreams, cedar bucket boy... My oh my. You're beginning to sound like Katysails. I am so fortunate to be loved by two women. You have heard my voice and you still make scripts for plays like you do? rofl How do I know who I talked to? It could be anybody on the other end of the phone. You are probably a spy from the Gay One in San Francisco sent out to gather information of me and set me up for scurrilous indictments. You probably wish in your dreams that you Gotcha any warm attractive female body that crosses your path... That's not what you said when you were begging for sailing lessons . . . Besides, I'm over you. I've still got Katysails, what sane man could ask for more? CN |
"Lady Pilot" wrote
How could you sell a motorcyle to Ireland when you live in the USA? Are shipping costs that low nowadays? They came here and got it LP. They make a few buying trips each year. They rent a container and take about 20 bikes back to Ireland with them each trip. Always a pleasure doing business with people who have cash. Scout |
Most of them....Mr Sails has been insane for about 26 years now.....I, of
course, was the great catalyst for his condition...it's a dangerous thing knowing me too well....Max has only been exposed to a very small version of what I am in a social sense and look at how insane he is.... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... "Lady Pilot" wrote in message news:TAqzd.28183$F25.19580@okepread07... Only in your dreams, cedar bucket boy... My oh my. You're beginning to sound like Katysails. I am so fortunate to be loved by two women. You have heard my voice and you still make scripts for plays like you do? rofl How do I know who I talked to? It could be anybody on the other end of the phone. You are probably a spy from the Gay One in San Francisco sent out to gather information of me and set me up for scurrilous indictments. You probably wish in your dreams that you Gotcha any warm attractive female body that crosses your path... That's not what you said when you were begging for sailing lessons . . . Besides, I'm over you. I've still got Katysails, what sane man could ask for more? CN |
"katysails" wrote in message Most of them....Mr Sails has been insane for about 26 years now..... Not so sure about that, but . . . I, of course, was the great catalyst for his condition... Most likely, if indeed he is insane. it's a dangerous thing knowing me too well.... Without a doubt. Max has only been exposed to a very small version of what I am in a social sense and look at how insane he is.... True. How sadly true. Mr. Warren: you really should give second (and third, ad infinitum) thought to pursuing a relationship with this particular woman. She's a great sailor, a great person, but indeed the catalyst for mental disarray and thoughts of suicide. That Mr. Sails is still alive and kicking is a testament to his iron backbone and steel constitution. That her children still visit her is a testament to their wills of titanium. I really don't know what it is about her, but next to her the Stepford wives are naught but a pile of arcing microcircuits. Exposed to her Spiderman would fall off the sides of buildings into an amorphous blob of protoplasmic goo on the sidewalk. Proceed with utmost caution. You have been forewarned. Max |
There you have it....and Max doesn't lie...you'd better listen to him....
"Maxprop" wrote in message hlink.net... "katysails" wrote in message Most of them....Mr Sails has been insane for about 26 years now..... Not so sure about that, but . . . I, of course, was the great catalyst for his condition... Most likely, if indeed he is insane. it's a dangerous thing knowing me too well.... Without a doubt. Max has only been exposed to a very small version of what I am in a social sense and look at how insane he is.... True. How sadly true. Mr. Warren: you really should give second (and third, ad infinitum) thought to pursuing a relationship with this particular woman. She's a great sailor, a great person, but indeed the catalyst for mental disarray and thoughts of suicide. That Mr. Sails is still alive and kicking is a testament to his iron backbone and steel constitution. That her children still visit her is a testament to their wills of titanium. I really don't know what it is about her, but next to her the Stepford wives are naught but a pile of arcing microcircuits. Exposed to her Spiderman would fall off the sides of buildings into an amorphous blob of protoplasmic goo on the sidewalk. Proceed with utmost caution. You have been forewarned. Max |
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
... "Lady Pilot" wrote in message news:TAqzd.28183$F25.19580@okepread07... Only in your dreams, cedar bucket boy... My oh my. You're beginning to sound like Katysails. I am so fortunate to be loved by two women. You have heard my voice and you still make scripts for plays like you do? rofl How do I know who I talked to? It could be anybody on the other end of the phone. You are probably a spy from the Gay One in San Francisco sent out to gather information of me and set me up for scurrilous indictments. You probably wish in your dreams that you Gotcha any warm attractive female body that crosses your path... That's not what you said when you were begging for sailing lessons . . . Besides, I'm over you. I've still got Katysails, what sane man could ask for more? CN |
Maxprop wrote:
Your derision of my comment makes the presumption that I might actually give a rat's posterior Well, do you give a rat's posterior about making a posterior of yourselve when you express opinions that are (shall we tactfully say) not rooted in fact? You can build a lot and still build well. You can also build custom boats that are crap. It all depends on where the money goes. True, but you cite the exceptions rather than the rule. If there are exceptions, then citing the rule and insisting that your enxamined and uninformed judgement must be considered axiomatic is not exactly wise. ... The boats you seem to be defending have a lengthy reputation for building cookie-cutter boats for the low-end market and for the charter market. The only boat(s) I'm defending is Jeanneau, which has built a wide range of non-mass-produced-crap boats. But you don't want to know about them. Never heard of a Stellar. Custom. Premium in every respect. OK I will keep my eyes peeled for one. I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice. Did you go down into the engine room? .... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most impressive, especially considering the price. Never heard of them either. DSK |
Look at a Nordic 40 or 44. Another Perry design.
Maxprop wrote: I remember when those boats first hit the market, and they looked great. Unfortunately they seem rather rare. None anywhere around here, and not too many on Yachtworld.com either. Probably true. I saw a listing for a centerboard Nordic 40 a while back, a critter I had no idea existed. My wife loved the Nordic and so I showed her. She's still mad at me about suggesting a New York 40 centerboard model.... .... The Baltics are among our first choices for a replacement to our current boat. That'd be a good call IMHO. The quality of the Sagas is excellent Not my impression of them. Have you looked carefully in all the nooks & crannies? Not really. A friend has an '02 Saga 43, and on the surface it looks like a quality machine, but we didn't actually did into the boat. It is very fast, however, and handles wonderfully in a trailing sea. I bilge-crawled intensively through two different ones at two boat shows, and came away unimpressed. They seem to cut a lot of corners in hidden places. I have not sailed the boat in a following sea but the hull shape seems likely to do that. As for fast, that's relative. Certainly they're a hell of a lot faster than the crab-crushers they seem to be replacing in many people's idealogy. As I mentioned earlier, they're all too new for us to consider. I'm not willing to take the whopping first several years' depreciation on any boat, so we're not considering anything newer than roughly eight years old. No Sagas in that category. I'd rather have a Swan or Baltic anyway. And I just got a lead on a pristine Passport 40 today. We'll take a look at it when the snow begins to melt, if it's still available. Commendable approach. Not being in a hurry is wise when boat shopping. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
"DSK" wrote in message I bilge-crawled intensively through two different ones at two boat shows, and came away unimpressed. They seem to cut a lot of corners in hidden places. I have not sailed the boat in a following sea but the hull shape seems likely to do that. As for fast, that's relative. Certainly they're a hell of a lot faster than the crab-crushers they seem to be replacing in many people's idealogy. That's an interesting point, and one which I think sums up a lot in terms of crusing design these days. Away from the ponderous Taiwanese joinery masterpieces toward narrower, faster, lighter displacement hulls without the fine furniture store ambience below. When checking out my friend's Saga, I didn't have the time to pay much scrutiny to construction, rather a cursory examination of rigging, deck, and interior amenities. I was on the helm for most of the trip, which is where I wanted to be anyhoo. Commendable approach. Not being in a hurry is wise when boat shopping. We're in a unique position, for once in our lives. We have a very attractive boat with all the bells, whistles, and extras, and it's a great sailor with acceptable amenities and better-than-average strength and build quality for a 34 footer. We're not in any hurry to part with her, so essentially it'll take a pretty spectacular boat at a reasonable price to make the deal. We have, by my reckoning, at least 8 years before the deadline of having to upgrade to a larger boat. Max |
"DSK" wrote in message Maxprop wrote: Your derision of my comment makes the presumption that I might actually give a rat's posterior Well, do you give a rat's posterior about making a posterior of yourselve when you express opinions that are (shall we tactfully say) not rooted in fact? Only on Usenet will someone jump down your throat for not being completely and inexorably pedantic w/r/t your opinions. After twenty years of observing mediocre Jeanneaus at shows, on the docks, and in marina showrooms, most rational people would conclude that Jeanneau builds boats to a price line and nothing particularly exceptional. Having seen no evidence to the contrary, either in the flesh or in print, it would not be imprudent to draw such a conclusion. But then along comes the ubiquitous Usenet bully, living his daily life for the opportunity to lambast someone whose knowledge was perhaps not quite as esoteric w/r/t the subject at hand as his own. And he labels his target with such terms as stupid, ignorant, horse's ass, and myriad other appellations, simply because the target's observations weren't perhaps precisely correct, despite the fact that they were the accurate with respect to his observations and those of most others. A bit of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal relationships. I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people at your marina when they are in minor error. True, but you cite the exceptions rather than the rule. If there are exceptions, then citing the rule and insisting that your enxamined and uninformed judgement must be considered axiomatic is not exactly wise. It's completely normal and quite predictable, outside of the know-it-all's paradise, otherwise known as Usenet. I'm betting that nearly 100% of sailors polled as to the quality range of Jeanneau boats at, say, a Sail America show, would agree with my assessment. We might be wrong, but with respect to the boats that Jeanneau sells in the US, we're not incorrect. Would it be wrong to conclude that Hunter largely builds low-end boats to a price, despite the fact that Warren Luhrs built a few of the most powerful, strongest, and advanced custom round-the-world racers? ... The boats you seem to be defending have a lengthy reputation for building cookie-cutter boats for the low-end market and for the charter market. The only boat(s) I'm defending is Jeanneau, which has built a wide range of non-mass-produced-crap boats. But you don't want to know about them. LOL. I never said any such thing. YOU made that leap of illogic. I only told you what I'd observed. You corrected me, and I stand corrected, much as it pains me to do so, having been chastised by a Usenet hardass. g Custom. Premium in every respect. OK I will keep my eyes peeled for one. Not a lot of Stellars around these parts. I think they're made in NZ or perhaps somewhere in Europe. They were so far out of my price range that I never bothered to find out much about them. Just a lot of ooohs and aaaahs. I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice. Did you go down into the engine room? Yes. Amazing. Full headroom, spotless as a galley, and wonderfully roomy. Unfortunately it was about 90F and humid that day, and the engine room was about 110 with a monster genset running to power the A/C, so I didn't linger. .... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most impressive, especially considering the price. Never heard of them either. Saw my first one this August. Amazing quality and finish, and another engine room that's really a by-God engine room. 500hp and 18kts--another big engined trawler--but the details and layout were among the best I've seen on any boat of comparable size. Priced around $600K, they compare most favorably against similarly-sized trawlers costing about $400K more. Built in Taiwan, I believe, and still waaay out of my price range. Max |
Maxprop wrote:
... A bit of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal relationships. Sure. Does this mean you're changing your style? ... I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people at your marina when they are in minor error. Are you under the impression that I've jumped all over you? Just trying to help you correct a mistake. ..... I'm betting that nearly 100% of sailors polled as to the quality range of Jeanneau boats at, say, a Sail America show, would agree with my assessment. Does that make it a fact? Are we into faith-based boat construction these days? Would it be wrong to conclude that Hunter largely builds low-end boats to a price, despite the fact that Warren Luhrs built a few of the most powerful, strongest, and advanced custom round-the-world racers? AFAIK his only round-the-world racer broke before finishing. 'Route 66' was a pretty cool boat, but I understand it also has structural issues and last I heard it was on the market asking pennies on the dollar. Anyway there is a difference between saying "Hunter largely builds low-end boats" and allowing for a few exceptions, and saying "Everthing that ever had the Hunter name on it is a sorry POS." OTOH one can also make so many qualifications & exceptions as to makes one's statements functionally useless. .... You corrected me, and I stand corrected, much as it pains me to do so, having been chastised by a Usenet hardass. g Well, good. Not a lot of Stellars around these parts. I think they're made in NZ or perhaps somewhere in Europe. They were so far out of my price range that I never bothered to find out much about them. Just a lot of ooohs and aaaahs. I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice. Did you go down into the engine room? Yes. Amazing. Full headroom, spotless as a galley, and wonderfully roomy. The thing I liked about it was the layout, routing, and access to all systems. Very professional. Also, in a compartment like the engine room, all the build quality issues like structural details, wiring & plumbing runs, etc etc, are all laid out in plain sight. A boat can not be well built and have a poor engine space. Unfortunately it was about 90F and humid that day, and the engine room was about 110 with a monster genset running to power the A/C, so I didn't linger. Comes with the territory ;) You mentioned "spotless"... One nice thing, an engine room that is well laid out is easy to keep clean. I'm a firm believer that cleanliness makes a big difference in long term maintenaince. .... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most impressive, especially considering the price. Never heard of them either. Saw my first one this August. Amazing quality and finish, and another engine room that's really a by-God engine room. 500hp and 18kts--another big engined trawler--but the details and layout were among the best I've seen on any boat of comparable size. Priced around $600K, they compare most favorably against similarly-sized trawlers costing about $400K more. Built in Taiwan, I believe, and still waaay out of my price range. In this credit-crazed society, you can afford anything you can talk somebody else into financing for you. After you mentioned it, I googled up the Symbol 45. Nice looking boat. Palatial... 'way more accomodation than we need. I like the side decks too, too many of these boats (including the Nordhaven) don't really have a good deck layout. DSK |
"DSK" wrote in message Maxprop wrote: ... A bit of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal relationships. Sure. Does this mean you're changing your style? ... I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people at your marina when they are in minor error. Are you under the impression that I've jumped all over you? Just trying to help you correct a mistake. You tend to have an abrasive, less-than-tactful way of doing so. At times I get the impression of rancor on your part during such discussions, which is baffling, considering the relative lack of importance of such non-issues. ..... I'm betting that nearly 100% of sailors polled as to the quality range of Jeanneau boats at, say, a Sail America show, would agree with my assessment. Does that make it a fact? Are we into faith-based boat construction these days? I would not buy a Jeanneau. Period. None of the examples I've seen did much to impress me with either construction quality or wisdom of design. They have all been cookie-cutter bleach bottles. Oh sure, there may be a dozen or so superb Jeanneau-built boats resting at docks in some obscure corners of the world, but I've never seen 'em, and no one else appears to have either. What Jeanneau imports to this country is Beneteau-level stuff. That is fact enough for me. Would it be wrong to conclude that Hunter largely builds low-end boats to a price, despite the fact that Warren Luhrs built a few of the most powerful, strongest, and advanced custom round-the-world racers? AFAIK his only round-the-world racer broke before finishing. 'Route 66' was a pretty cool boat, but I understand it also has structural issues and last I heard it was on the market asking pennies on the dollar. Anyway there is a difference between saying "Hunter largely builds low-end boats" and allowing for a few exceptions, and saying "Everthing that ever had the Hunter name on it is a sorry POS." Your two immediate paragraphs seem to support the latter. OTOH one can also make so many qualifications & exceptions as to makes one's statements functionally useless. Sort of like your contention that Jeanneau is not a low-end builder, eh? .... You corrected me, and I stand corrected, much as it pains me to do so, having been chastised by a Usenet hardass. g Well, good. And of course you and I have solved nothing, apart from trading barbs. Yes. Amazing. Full headroom, spotless as a galley, and wonderfully roomy. The thing I liked about it was the layout, routing, and access to all systems. Very professional. Also, in a compartment like the engine room, all the build quality issues like structural details, wiring & plumbing runs, etc etc, are all laid out in plain sight. A boat can not be well built and have a poor engine space. I had the opportunity to tour a couple of Palmer Johnson mega yachts a few years back in Wisconsin. One was just completed and on its way to Florida. The salesman said, "Please excuse the engine room, as we've still got some more work to do down there. I kept my mouth shut, but they had one hell of a lot of work to do, IMO. Nothing was finalized, wires and conduits were everywhere, and I was surprised that the boat was about to be fueled and gotten underway. If that's PJ's concept of a fine engine space, I'd never want one of their boats, not that I could ever afford one. The second boat was in for service, and its engine space, while neater and farily well finished, was not even on par with those seen in Hatteras boats of much more diminutive dimensions. The only thing I could say about the engine room of either boat was, "Holy ****, this is huge." You mentioned "spotless"... One nice thing, an engine room that is well laid out is easy to keep clean. I'm a firm believer that cleanliness makes a big difference in long term maintenaince. Agreed. Apparently many so-called yachtsmen don't seem to agree. The first place I look in any boat I'm considering buying is the engine space and the wiring. If they're dirty or poorly laid-out, I walk and save myself a lot of time. .... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most impressive, especially considering the price. Never heard of them either. Saw my first one this August. Amazing quality and finish, and another engine room that's really a by-God engine room. 500hp and 18kts--another big engined trawler--but the details and layout were among the best I've seen on any boat of comparable size. Priced around $600K, they compare most favorably against similarly-sized trawlers costing about $400K more. Built in Taiwan, I believe, and still waaay out of my price range. In this credit-crazed society, you can afford anything you can talk somebody else into financing for you. That's very true, but the Hatteras rep with whom I spoke last August told me that many of their buyers of their larger boats pay cash. And many are repeat customers. I wouldn't be surprised if you see the same people in front of the hotel there in New Bern taking the keys to new Hatteras yachts from time to time. After you mentioned it, I googled up the Symbol 45. Nice looking boat. Palatial... 'way more accomodation than we need. I like the side decks too, too many of these boats (including the Nordhaven) don't really have a good deck layout. Some of the details that I found impressive were proprietary fittings. The bow roller was a massive, polished stainless affair that had a monstrous Danforth-type anchor on the rollers. It would easily handle an equally massive plow or Bruce. The wall thickness of the steel appeared to be about 3/8". The windows, according to the sales lady, were about 3/4" thick tempered glass. And the grab rails mounted on the cabin sides along the wide side decks were massive stainless weldments, and very solidly attached. The bulwarks were over 2' high, and the nonskid was flawless, as was the rest of the fiberglass work. If the company keeps the quality as high as this early example, they'll sell plenty of them. I have no idea how they perform, however. Max |
wrote in message ... On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:06:09 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: "DSK" wrote in message Maxprop wrote: ... A bit of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal relationships. Sure. Does this mean you're changing your style? ... I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people at your marina when they are in minor error. Are you under the impression that I've jumped all over you? Just trying to help you correct a mistake. You tend to have an abrasive, less-than-tactful way of doing so. At times I get the impression of rancor on your part during such discussions, which is baffling, considering the relative lack of importance of such non-issues. Tougboat is very bitter, especially since his wife forced him out of sailing and into a geriatric diesel trawler. BB So it was his wife? I should have guessed as much. Why, the poor soul certainly has always given the impression of a wussie. It could very well be that the abrasive and know-it-all nature of many of his posts are an attempt to restore a bruised ego - an escape from his daily life of his wife's wearing the pants in his very own home. Let's all try to understand Doug's needs and treat him like he's important and his posts are valuable. It might help heal his psyche. It might even inspire him to sell that stinkpot and get a gentleman's vessel - a cruising sailboat. Probably, if Doug were to acquire a large, stable, steel vessel like Capt. Joe's "Red Cloud", his wife would feel as safe and secure at sea as she does now on the sheltered waters of the inland waterways in their stinkpot trawler. You don't see Ms. Terry Mermaid making Capt. Joe own and operate a trawler, now do you? On the other hand, and woman who would marry DSK doesn't have Ms. Terry's good judgment either. CN CN |
heck...you want a boat that is broken in and proven, don't ya?
----snip-------------------- " I'm not willing to take the whopping first several years' depreciation on any boat, so we're not considering anything newer than roughly eight years old. No Sagas in that category. I'd rather have a Swan or Baltic anyway. And I just got a lead on a pristine Passport 40 today. We'll take a look at it when the snow begins to melt, if it's still available." |
Ms Terry couldn;'t stand the heat in here....
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:06:09 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote: "DSK" wrote in message Maxprop wrote: ... A bit of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal relationships. Sure. Does this mean you're changing your style? ... I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people at your marina when they are in minor error. Are you under the impression that I've jumped all over you? Just trying to help you correct a mistake. You tend to have an abrasive, less-than-tactful way of doing so. At times I get the impression of rancor on your part during such discussions, which is baffling, considering the relative lack of importance of such non-issues. Tougboat is very bitter, especially since his wife forced him out of sailing and into a geriatric diesel trawler. BB So it was his wife? I should have guessed as much. Why, the poor soul certainly has always given the impression of a wussie. It could very well be that the abrasive and know-it-all nature of many of his posts are an attempt to restore a bruised ego - an escape from his daily life of his wife's wearing the pants in his very own home. Let's all try to understand Doug's needs and treat him like he's important and his posts are valuable. It might help heal his psyche. It might even inspire him to sell that stinkpot and get a gentleman's vessel - a cruising sailboat. Probably, if Doug were to acquire a large, stable, steel vessel like Capt. Joe's "Red Cloud", his wife would feel as safe and secure at sea as she does now on the sheltered waters of the inland waterways in their stinkpot trawler. You don't see Ms. Terry Mermaid making Capt. Joe own and operate a trawler, now do you? On the other hand, and woman who would marry DSK doesn't have Ms. Terry's good judgment either. CN CN |
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