"DSK" wrote in message

Well, obviously sails don't burn fuel, but they are expensive and have a
limited life span. You could, if you were diligent, figure out how many
miles/$ you got out of sails, but you'd probably prefer to not know.

Which would certainly be among the most useless pieces of info any sailor
could ever hope to acquire. Boaters should really not do the numbers w/r/t
costs vs. miles, or cost vs. time spent on the boat, etc. The bottom line
is never pretty.

They're too beamy and they're dragging an extra prop through the water.

Not all of them have wing engines. They're optional, and most don't have
'em.

Which is about twice the power it'll ever realistically need.

Matter of opinion. Nordic Tug sells more boats than they can produce
annually, and they all have 300hp Cummins or better. Same with American
Tugs, Pacific Seacraft Fast Trawlers, Sabreline, and others.


No twin is fuel efficient, but that's not the point. Twins are supposed to
be fast.

Twin Cats on a 42 Grand Banks is really pretty silly, if you think about it.
If the boat owner really wants speed, he should consider a planing hull with
the same engines for about the same money.

And it's my point that fuel simply isn't that great an expense, compared
with all the other costs of having & keeping & maintaining the boat.

That's a very nice point, Doug. Glad you made it. Now, why did you make
it? We weren't discussing fuel costs, apart from the fact that I just
mentioned--in passing--that I spent damn little for fuel this year. Not
that it's any big deal.

So? Do you always sail faster than 6 knots?

Not generally, but I'd sure like to. My next boat will be capable of at
least a sustained 7 kts. under sail or power. If I had the resources, I'd
own a Saga 43, which can do 8 kts. in 15kts. of wind, and 9-11kts. with
enough wind and wave to surf occasionally.

We generally go 7 to 7 1/2 and burn from somewhat less than 1 to 1 1/2
gph. At 6 kt we burn about 1/2 gph. If I slow down to idle, the boat goes
4 1/2 and the engine actually pulls in hyrdocarbons from the air, converts
it to diesel fuel, and pumps it into the tanks ;)

Have I told you about my cold fusion reactor that I'm putting on my next
boat? g

Max

"JG" wrote in message

Yup, you're clearly very upset with me. Why's that?

You really do need to seek some professional help, Jon.

Max

"Nav" wrote in message

That is because you are a discerning woman who appreciates the finer
things in life. A noisy smelly diesel engine on a slow boat is not one of
them eh?

I find trawlers to be a bit boring for weekend outings. But just about the
most fun I've ever had on one was skippering a CWB 35 with twin Lehmans from
Pen****er to White Lake (about 35nm) in a nor'wester of 30-45kts. with
quartering waves of 8-10'. What a ride. It took a lot of concentration to
keep the damn boat on course, but it was a blast. Never doubted the ability
of the vessel to handle those conditions for a moment. Several of the
passengers lost their breakfast, however.

Max

Starting to rant there Maxipad? You keep saying the same thing over and
over.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"JG" wrote in message

Yup, you're clearly very upset with me. Why's that?

You really do need to seek some professional help, Jon.

Max

"DSK" wrote:

http://community.webshots.com/album/63279185YQtgSA

1984 Sundowner 36

Thanks for the pictures, Doug.

LP (nice boat)

"Nav" wrote:

Ella can go at 8 knots with nothing more than a fair breeze.

Just curious, how much do you have to pay for a captain for you sailboat?

LP

"Nav" wrote:
Put there by your news server I think.

Katysails has her own news server? I'm impressed!

LP

"Donal" wrote:

"Scout" wrote:

I've been in many very old homes. In general, they're beautiful but too
inefficiency for my liking. I like the modern building materials,
waterproofed basements, tall basements, superior electrical and plumbing
systems, and so forth.

We have running water too! We even have electricity in most of the
rooms.

Furthermore, I'll have a real fire burning on Christmas day! I think
that
we'll start with logs (from our garden), and later we'll use coal.

Coal? Does Santa know about this? I thought Santa was a liberal and Green
Peace and all of that...

LP

"Capt. Neal®" wrote:



"Lady Pilot" wrote:

"Joe" wrote

I was going to get Bob a directing job fiming the flick version but
after his dis'n me as bb Im not so sure.

Let me know if you ever get the movie project off the ground. I have a
friend that might be interested. He was co-Producer on the Godfather
III.
He's back home now in OKC. Last time we had dinner together he was
working
on a movie about Wiley Post and was needing technical advise on stunt
pilots, etc.

http://theoscarsite.com/whoswho5/frederickson_g.htm

Of course for my help, you will have to get me an actor's role in the
movie.
:-)

LP

Oh oh! Maybe BinaryBill is right about your being a man.
A woman would surely ask for an actress role, not an actor's role.

Maybe you've been out to sea too long, sailor.
Do you call your mailman a mailwoman?
Maybe you should get up with the times, and I quote from:

A female actor is an actress, although an increasingly large group feel that
the term "actor" should be redefined as being gender-neutral and used for
both men and women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor

I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Maybe you ate too much Key Lime Pie?

LP

No, but it wouldn't be hard to get one if I needed it. My friend went to
Rome to shoot the Godfather part III and she didn't need a card.

LP

"katysails" wrote:
You have a Guild card?

"Lady Pilot" wrote:

"Joe" wrote

I was going to get Bob a directing job fiming the flick version but
after his dis'n me as bb Im not so sure.

Let me know if you ever get the movie project off the ground. I have a
friend that might be interested. He was co-Producer on the Godfather
III. He's back home now in OKC. Last time we had dinner together he was
working on a movie about Wiley Post and was needing technical advise on
stunt pilots, etc.

http://theoscarsite.com/whoswho5/frederickson_g.htm

Of course for my help, you will have to get me an actor's role in the
movie. :-)

lead pipes and knob and tube electric? hehe
I'm sure it's a handsome home!
Scout

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scout" wrote in message
...

I've been in many very old homes. In general, they're beautiful but too
inefficiency for my liking. I like the modern building materials,
waterproofed basements, tall basements, superior electrical and plumbing
systems, and so forth.

We have running water too! We even have electricity in most of the
rooms.

Furthermore, I'll have a real fire burning on Christmas day! I think
that
we'll start with logs (from our garden), and later we'll use coal.




Regards


Donal
--

There's lots of things people don't know about me...

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:F9vyd.21794$F25.21736@okepread07...

"Nav" wrote:
Put there by your news server I think.

Katysails has her own news server? I'm impressed!

LP

Which is about twice the power it'll ever realistically need.


Maxprop wrote:
Matter of opinion.

To some extent, yes. However when the horsepower available is far in
excess of anything the prop & the hull are going to keep up with, then
what is the purpose?


.... Nordic Tug sells more boats than they can produce
annually, and they all have 300hp Cummins or better. Same with American
Tugs, Pacific Seacraft Fast Trawlers, Sabreline, and others.

Yep. So? Lots of people like to brag about how much horsepower they have.



And it's my point that fuel simply isn't that great an expense, compared
with all the other costs of having & keeping & maintaining the boat.


That's a very nice point, Doug. Glad you made it. Now, why did you make
it? We weren't discussing fuel costs, apart from the fact that I just
mentioned--in passing--that I spent damn little for fuel this year. Not
that it's any big deal.

Ah well, when you mentioned trawlers and how expnsive their fuel bill
must be, I thought it was kinda the point.


... My next boat will be capable of at
least a sustained 7 kts. under sail or power.

Not that difficult.

... If I had the resources, I'd
own a Saga 43, which can do 8 kts. in 15kts. of wind, and 9-11kts. with
enough wind and wave to surf occasionally.

There are a lot of better boats available *much* cheaper IMHO.


Have I told you about my cold fusion reactor that I'm putting on my next
boat? g


To power the warp drive?

DSK

Lady Pilot wrote:
Thanks for the pictures, Doug.

LP (nice boat)


You're welcome.

DSK

"Maxprop" scribbled thusly:
Of those you list, Henri Wauquiez is far and away the best builder. Dufour,
Lagoon, and the others are Beneteau/Jeanneau-quality boats.

What's wrong with Jeanneau? That name has gone on a lot of different
boats built in different plants. Some are very respectably well-built.


OzOne wrote:
Yep, they all market boats where they can sell them, but that also
build superb custom yachts and top of the line beauties.
Multiplast are one of the best, building everything from small motor
sailers thru AmCup and beyond.

Never heard of Multiplast. Looks interesting.

That said, HW can't touch Henry Hinckley, Tom Morris, Shannon, Pacific
Seacraft, Kanter, Oyster, Moody, Nautor, Baltic, or Hallberg Rassey in terms
of construction quality, design, or longevity. Nothing ridiculous about it.
The frog boats aren't bad, but not up to the standards of the ones I named.
And you know it.

Careful, you're getting a Boobsie complex.

I think there is relatively little point in comparing custom built boats
to mass-produced ones.

That said, the best built boat I have ever personally inspected was an
Oyster. But Kirie has also done impressive job on many of their boats,
and the Dufour built Dynamique is the equal of any other semi-custom you
can name.

Max your emotional commitment to political jokes is getting the better
of you again....


I guess you have to be there.

Yep, that would help.

DSK

donal,
paets of my house are older than your country,,,,,,

Yeah Donal, and the land may still belong to the Queen.

Ole Thom

Let's keep it that way, shall we.

Merry Christmas......
Scotty


"katysails" wrote in message
...
There's lots of things people don't know about me...

Logs from a garden??????


"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scout" wrote in message
...

I've been in many very old homes. In general, they're beautiful
but too
inefficiency for my liking. I like the modern building materials,
waterproofed basements, tall basements, superior electrical and
plumbing
systems, and so forth.

We have running water too! We even have electricity in most of the
rooms.

Furthermore, I'll have a real fire burning on Christmas day! I
think that
we'll start with logs (from our garden), and later we'll use coal.




Regards


Donal
--

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, "Maxprop" wrote:

. . . Henri Wauquiez is far and away the best
builder. Dufour, Lagoon, and the others are
Beneteau/Jeanneau-quality boats. * * *

Isn't Wauquiez (like Jenneau) now owned (and built) by Beneteau?

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message news:8kvyd.21829$F25.4778@okepread07...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote:



"Lady Pilot" wrote:

"Joe" wrote

I was going to get Bob a directing job fiming the flick version but
after his dis'n me as bb Im not so sure.

Let me know if you ever get the movie project off the ground. I have a
friend that might be interested. He was co-Producer on the Godfather
III.
He's back home now in OKC. Last time we had dinner together he was
working
on a movie about Wiley Post and was needing technical advise on stunt
pilots, etc.

http://theoscarsite.com/whoswho5/frederickson_g.htm

Of course for my help, you will have to get me an actor's role in the
movie.
:-)

LP

Oh oh! Maybe BinaryBill is right about your being a man.
A woman would surely ask for an actress role, not an actor's role.

Maybe you've been out to sea too long, sailor.
Do you call your mailman a mailwoman?
Maybe you should get up with the times, and I quote from:

A female actor is an actress, although an increasingly large group feel that
the term "actor" should be redefined as being gender-neutral and used for
both men and women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor

I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Maybe you ate too much Key Lime Pie?

LP


Ah Hah! Caught you in yet another inconsistency, dear *Lady* Pilot.

In previous posts, you claim to be a conservative woman. Yet, in this post,
you are embracing and advocating for liberal politically correct speech.
How can this be? I suppose you will also get upset if I hold a door open
for you?

First, she's a conservative woman.

Now, she's a conservative woman with a liberal bent.

It follows that she could easily be a liberal man. Good Grief!

Gotcha!

CN (too intelligent to be fooled by any sock)

I think it's safe to say that your wish is granted...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Let's keep it that way, shall we.

Merry Christmas......
Scotty


"katysails" wrote in message
...
There's lots of things people don't know about me...

They use the term garden there to mean backyard...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Logs from a garden??????


"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scout" wrote in message
...

I've been in many very old homes. In general, they're beautiful
but too
inefficiency for my liking. I like the modern building materials,
waterproofed basements, tall basements, superior electrical and
plumbing
systems, and so forth.

We have running water too! We even have electricity in most of the
rooms.

Furthermore, I'll have a real fire burning on Christmas day! I
think that
we'll start with logs (from our garden), and later we'll use coal.




Regards


Donal
--

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004, OzOne wrote:

scribbled thusly:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, "Maxprop" wrote:

. . . Henri Wauquiez is far and away the best
builder. Dufour, Lagoon, and the others are
Beneteau/Jeanneau-quality boats. * * *

Isn't Wauquiez (like Jenneau) now owned (and built) by Beneteau?

Not when I last looked.
They 're still quite independent AFAIK.

Ah - the wonders on the one hand of brandin (what "OzOne" thinks s/he
remembers when s/he "last looked" and on the other hand also the
wonders of that very self-protective "when I last looked" (compared
with, "yes" or "no" or "in part")!

I wasn't sure what I though I remembered about when I last looked also
and yet, now prompted by the semi-evasive "OzOne" response above to my
own question whose answer I really did not know when I posted it, a
just quickly done www search elicits:

Beneteau (at first: quitely) acquired a controlling interest in
Wauquiez in 1997 [sic!] and now the "Beneteau Group" includes, besides
Beneteau and Jenneau (and an about to be launched line of
semi-"budget" boats), "five factories in the Vendee area of France,
and one factory in Marion, South Carolina . . . [and] includes other
yachting companies of CNB, and Wauquiez."

See, -
http://www.yachts.com/builders/saili...au-Yachts.html
www.beneteau-group.com/$gp/accueil.do?langue=en

. . . not that any of this matters, especially . . .

That's plain silly.


"katysails" wrote in message
...
They use the term garden there to mean backyard...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Logs from a garden??????


"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scout" wrote in message

...

I've been in many very old homes. In general, they're beautiful
but too
inefficiency for my liking. I like the modern building
materials,
waterproofed basements, tall basements, superior electrical and
plumbing
systems, and so forth.

We have running water too! We even have electricity in most of
the
rooms.

Furthermore, I'll have a real fire burning on Christmas day! I
think that
we'll start with logs (from our garden), and later we'll use
coal.




Regards


Donal
--

Hey Donal,
I just sold one of my bikes to one of your countrymen at
http://www.barronbikes.com/
Scout

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scout" wrote in message
...

I've been in many very old homes. In general, they're beautiful but too
inefficiency for my liking. I like the modern building materials,
waterproofed basements, tall basements, superior electrical and plumbing
systems, and so forth.

We have running water too! We even have electricity in most of the
rooms.

Furthermore, I'll have a real fire burning on Christmas day! I think
that
we'll start with logs (from our garden), and later we'll use coal.




Regards


Donal
--

"Capt. Neal®" wrote
CN (too intelligent to be fooled by any sock)

Let he who has never been thrilled by a sock cast the first stone!
Scout

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
That's plain silly.

My apologies! I forgot that you don't speak English.

What do you call the area at the rear of your house?



Regards


Donal
--

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
donal,
paets of my house are older than your country,,,,,,

Yeah Donal, and the land may still belong to the Queen.


Nope! The land belongs to me.


Left Wingers seem to think that the Queen has some special priviliges. In
reality, she has none. She has no power, and very little political
influence.

She has no freedom to go about her business without photographers in
attendance. She is at the beck and call of the Prime Minister.

I was brought up as an Irish Nationalist. I don't have any problem in
recognising that the Queen does an excellent job.


Regards


Donal
--

the back yard.


"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
That's plain silly.

My apologies! I forgot that you don't speak English.

What do you call the area at the rear of your house?



Regards


Donal
--

"Donal" wrote

Yeah Donal, and the land may still belong to a Queen.


Nope! The land belongs to me.

Thom was right, then.



--
Merry Christmas......
Scotty

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
the back yard.

You should tidy it up a bit!




Regards


Donal
--

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
the back yard.

You should tidy it up a bit!


I spray painted the old tires lying about green and red for Christmas.
Looks real classy.


--
Merry Christmas......
Scotty

John Deere green?

CN


"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
the back yard.

You should tidy it up a bit!


I spray painted the old tires lying about green and red for Christmas.
Looks real classy.


--
Merry Christmas......
Scotty

Is there any other?

And Farmall red.


"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...


John Deere green?

CN


"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
the back yard.

You should tidy it up a bit!


I spray painted the old tires lying about green and red for
Christmas.
Looks real classy.


--
Merry Christmas......
Scotty

"JG" wrote in message

"Maxprop" wrote in message


"JG" wrote in message

Yup, you're clearly very upset with me. Why's that?

You really do need to seek some professional help, Jon.

Starting to rant there Maxipad? You keep saying the same thing over and
over.

Take my advice and I'll quit saying it. You really do need help.

Max

"DSK" wrote in message

To some extent, yes. However when the horsepower available is far in
excess of anything the prop & the hull are going to keep up with, then
what is the purpose?

You're preaching to the choir on this point. But to make conversation, some
folks just seem to thrive on power, despite the skewed relationship between
power vs. hull design vs. displacement, etc. I demo'd a Nordic Tug 37 this
past summer and was impressed by how fast the thing could actually go when
planing. But it threw a monstrous wake, was noisy, and would probably get
to a typical destination only about half an hour faster than if at hull
speed. The premium, however, was fuel cost: about 6 times that of 8kts.
for roughly twice the speed. Not a good trade, IMO.

Yep. So? Lots of people like to brag about how much horsepower they have.

True. When I had my Sea Ray 330 Express Cruiser, I admit to telling folks
that it had 680 hp on tap. Time has mellowed my needs, however. My 24 hp
Universal diesel in the sailboat seems ample for a boat of this size. Of
course I'd rather be sailing when cruising, but that is highly infrequent on
Lake Michigan.

Ah well, when you mentioned trawlers and how expnsive their fuel bill must
be, I thought it was kinda the point.

No. Katy mentioned how expensive they are. I disputed her comment to some
degree, then threw in my $40 per annum fuel costs as an aside.

Not that difficult.

Nope. It will be in the 40'-44' range, which should easily do 7kts. under
power, and somewhat better under sail in the right conditions. We've looked
at a Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41, a Passport (Perry) 40, and a Baltic Doug Peterson
42, any of which would fit the bill.

There are a lot of better boats available *much* cheaper IMHO.

The quality of the Sagas is excellent, and they are very fast for boats with
such an accomodating cruising interior. That said, they are all too new.
Ten years from now they'll be reaching my pocketbook, but for now we're
looking at boats from the early Nineties or late Eighties.

To power the warp drive?

Warp drive. LOL. No, to power the flux capacitor, which requires ten
gigawatts to be able to jump to . . .

Max

"Donal" wrote in message news:cqfqcn$mom$1

My apologies! I forgot that you don't speak English.

What do you call the area at the rear of your house?

Landfill?

Max

"DSK" wrote in message

"Maxprop" scribbled thusly:
Of those you list, Henri Wauquiez is far and away the best builder.
Dufour, Lagoon, and the others are Beneteau/Jeanneau-quality boats.

What's wrong with Jeanneau? That name has gone on a lot of different boats
built in different plants. Some are very respectably well-built.

They aren't bad, but they really are no better than Beneteau or Dufour.
They are all boats priced to sell in a range that is similar to or slightly
more than Catalina and Hunter boats. I prefer them to the two American
boats, but probably not enough to buy one.

Never heard of Multiplast. Looks interesting.

I saw something about them in a Brit sailing magazine a few years back.
Mostly racing or handicap designs, IIRC. Oz can correct me if I'm wrong.
They looked okay, but without seeing them in the flesh (fiberglass?) who
knows.

Careful, you're getting a Boobsie complex.

Not really. I don't have any one of those boats, not that I wouldn't love
to own one. If I were Bubbles, I'd claim to have one of each, all given to
me by gorgeous women who can't live without my body.

I think there is relatively little point in comparing custom built boats
to mass-produced ones.

Granted some of them are custom or semi-custom. Especially Morris,
Hinckley, Shannon, and Kantor. The others are generally production boats,
but far from the production levels as, say, Beneteau, which is the largest
producer of yachts in the world.


That said, the best built boat I have ever personally inspected was an
Oyster. But Kirie has also done impressive job on many of their boats, and
the Dufour built Dynamique is the equal of any other semi-custom you can
name.

Haven't seen the Dynamique--only photos. Agreed that Oyster is an
impressive boat. The finest boat I've ever seen was a Stellar, unless we're
talking about megayachts.


Max your emotional commitment to political jokes is getting the better of
you again....

Huh?

Max

wrote in message

Isn't Wauquiez (like Jenneau) now owned (and built) by Beneteau?

News to moi, but it wouldn't surprise me. Beneteau is the largest rec. boat
builder in the world.

Max

I've got Ford tractor blue....when you spray it on the snow it makes a fake
lake...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Is there any other?

And Farmall red.


"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...


John Deere green?

CN


"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
the back yard.

You should tidy it up a bit!


I spray painted the old tires lying about green and red for
Christmas.
Looks real classy.


--
Merry Christmas......
Scotty