"DSK" wrote in message

The only thing Ol' Thom listed that a rigid vang can't do is become an
| emergency backstay. It will (or should) be able to support the boom for
| hoisting.

Not a chance Doug! The mechanics are all wrong and the placement is useless
for that purpose.

CM

The only way I could even contemplate that would be to disconnect it
from the base of the mast, then put it somewhere back, but I can't
imagine it would do much good.

In article ,
Capt. Mooron wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message

The only thing Ol' Thom listed that a rigid vang can't do is become an
| emergency backstay. It will (or should) be able to support the boom for
| hoisting.

Not a chance Doug! The mechanics are all wrong and the placement is useless
for that purpose.

CM




--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Not a chance Doug! The mechanics are all wrong and the placement is useless
for that purpose.


???

It holds up the boom, right?

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
The only way I could even contemplate that would be to disconnect it
from the base of the mast, then put it somewhere back, but I can't
imagine it would do much good.

??? ???

Have either of you all ever actually seen a solid vang?

DSK

Yup.... and no way it would hold the boom so I could hoist the auxiliary out
of the engine room with one!

For that you need a topping lift..

CM

"DSK" wrote in message
| Have either of you all ever actually seen a solid vang?
|
| DSK
|

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Yup.... and no way it would hold the boom so I could hoist the auxiliary out
of the engine room with one!

For that you need a topping lift..

In that case, the solid vangs you've seen (and/or the booms) were sadly
lacking.

If it won't hold up a piddly little outboard motor, how is it going to
hold the force of the whole boat driving the boom tip into wave crests,
or any of the other things that can be expected to happen when you
*really* sail, occasionally in hard conditions?

I think you're forming your opinion based on incomplete data.

A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

It's sort of like a centerboard one-design that won't plane... what's
the point?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article ,
DSK wrote:
A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

It's sort of like a centerboard one-design that won't plane... what's
the point?

Doug, I thougth that's what you were saying it would do... as an
emergency backstay. Oh well... my reading comprehension is going
downhill fast.



--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Doug, I thougth that's what you were saying it would do... as an
emergency backstay. Oh well... my reading comprehension is going
downhill fast.

My bad. I have been in a hurry all week and am probably not writing very
clearly.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message

| If it won't hold up a piddly little outboard motor, how is it going to
| hold the force of the whole boat driving the boom tip into wave crests,
| or any of the other things that can be expected to happen when you
| *really* sail, occasionally in hard conditions?

it's an auxiliary diesel.. 30 HP! The vang holds the boom down not up...
yes it has the capacity to hold up a boom up with some weight.... but that
is not it's primary function.

Leverage is required at the end of the boom for lifting. I'm certain you are
familiar with fulcrums?
Where would you fasten the mainsheet to the boom... generally it's 50% of
the length or more. Look where the vang is... at what 15%?

|
| I think you're forming your opinion based on incomplete data.

My data seems more complete than yours at the moment Doug.


|
| A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
| topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
| lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

No Way Doug!! No for all the tea in China. The engineering is out to lunch
for such a claim.

CM

Capt. Mooron wrote:
it's an auxiliary diesel.. 30 HP!

???
What is?

.... The vang holds the boom down not up...

Therein lies your error. A solid vang holds the boom up and down.


yes it has the capacity to hold up a boom up with some weight.... but that
is not it's primary function.

Why isn't it? That's like saying that because a bridge is designed for
cars to drive over it, it won't hold up a person walking across.



Leverage is required at the end of the boom for lifting. I'm certain you are
familiar with fulcrums?

Yes. I fail to see your point though. If the vang holds the boom up,
then it holds the boom up.

If the vang will hold the boom down under heavy sailing loads, then it
will probably hold at least as much in the opposite direction, nyet?

How much leach tension do you think your boat generates in a good breeze?


Where would you fasten the mainsheet to the boom... generally it's 50% of
the length or more. Look where the vang is... at what 15%?

Depends.

It's not a relevant issue though. Wherever the boom vang is attached, if
it will stand up to the load then it will... umm... stand up to the
load. If not, then it wasn't strong enough to begin with and that's true
whether it's a solid vang or not.

|
| A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
| topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
| lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

No Way Doug!! No for all the tea in China. The engineering is out to lunch
for such a claim.

Actually the engineering is quite sound. If you have problems with vangs
breaking and booms folding up, then that suggests that your engineering
needs a little more beef and less cheese.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug,

Think about the mechanics of both your statement and mine

By using the topping lift for Hoisting the total strength of the Rig is
used (Shrouds, fore and back stays; In my case double lower shrouds to
keep Mast in line.
With the Rigid Vang in Hoisting, you are putting Max Effort on the end
of the boom, supported at a point about 1/4 of the way back from the
Gooseneck.
That is an awful long unsupported Alum. Pole. (Hollow Aluminium Pole).

In operation, the force of the sail is at least two points on the boom,
with the main sheet countering the force on the boom. Often assisted by
the Vang. Often over assisted by a Hydra. Rigid Vang.

I'm sure, as an Engineer, you can admit to the difference

If you were careening the hull, you wouldn't weight the end of the boom
without the back-up of the topping lift and/or a halyard to call on the
full strength of the total rig. The topping lift is a solid connection.
The halyard is a varying force

Just some things to remind you of.

I'm not knocking the Rigid Vang. I wish I could fit one on my boat but
the Pilothouse makes that impossible. I'm thinking I might be able to
use a KICKER. I'm pointing out that PITA top lift still is a worthwhile
addition.

Ole Thom