OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

Signers of the letter include the entire chain of command
above Lt. John Kerry in Vietnam: Lt. Commander Grant
Hibbard, Lt. Commander George Elliott, Captain Charles
Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG, and Rear
Admiral Roy Hoffman.

Hear what they have to say about John Kerry.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/st...40515063551324

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing,
manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the
most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant
supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and
river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw
or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities
described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been
my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority,
and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry
actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as
he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report
them. That he did not until later when it suited his political
purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind.
That he would malign my service and that of his fellow
sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally
unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour
indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation
with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing
from some members of that crew the morning after revealed
that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg)
Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch
on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared
to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to
me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had
exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being
advised of any medical treatment, and probably said
something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart
for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or w
hom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA
after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he
proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them
criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are
here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of
engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of
Swift often did not even return fire when they were under
fire if there was a possibility that innocent people--fishermen,
in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and
the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that
we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some
outrageous statements and allegations... numerous criminal
acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry,
disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict.
Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam?
Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry
gave numerous speeches and testimony before Congress
inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what
was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting
men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they
were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those
within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas
Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo
Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing
subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and
property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them,
and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain
of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It
was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not
reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men
including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the
television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men
and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains
-- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the
Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of
the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls
one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander
at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the
end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the
Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in
my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because
the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I
could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was
booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the
waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to
market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our
operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a
formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover
and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

worth considering--

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

bart,
at this point i've got to believe kerry is a throw away candidate to get the
dems together for 2008
nothing else makes sense.

gf.

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
. ..
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

Signers of the letter include the entire chain of command
above Lt. John Kerry in Vietnam: Lt. Commander Grant
Hibbard, Lt. Commander George Elliott, Captain Charles
Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG, and Rear
Admiral Roy Hoffman.

Hear what they have to say about John Kerry.


http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/st...00405150635513
24

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing,
manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the
most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant
supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and
river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw
or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities
described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been
my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority,
and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry
actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as
he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report
them. That he did not until later when it suited his political
purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind.
That he would malign my service and that of his fellow
sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally
unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour
indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation
with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing
from some members of that crew the morning after revealed
that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg)
Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch
on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared
to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to
me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had
exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being
advised of any medical treatment, and probably said
something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart
for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or w
hom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA
after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he
proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them
criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are
here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of
engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of
Swift often did not even return fire when they were under
fire if there was a possibility that innocent people--fishermen,
in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and
the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that
we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some
outrageous statements and allegations... numerous criminal
acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry,
disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict.
Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam?
Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry
gave numerous speeches and testimony before Congress
inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what
was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting
men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they
were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those
within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas
Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo
Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing
subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and
property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them,
and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain
of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It
was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not
reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men
including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the
television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men
and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains
-- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the
Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of
the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls
one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander
at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the
end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the
Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in
my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because
the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I
could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was
booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the
waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to
market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our
operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a
formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover
and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

worth considering--

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

With the exception of the bible thumpin part I thought you were describing
Democrats, then I read the dates, put it in context and realized that back
then there were Christians in the Democrat party. Just change thumpin to
hatin', and you'll easily see it was the Democrats beingdescribed. There
famous for running military ops and then running . .. .that certainly
qualifes as wacko.



Slave owning, KKK'n, oilfield trashin, military wackos, fire and
Brimstone bible thumpin, pea brained, ****** bashing, witch
burning..people looking to hop on a gravy chain by starting
wars....That's truly how you see republicans?

Sheeeze you have some issues to deal with....This is 2004 not 1960

Did Kerry pay you to write that extreme propaganda? Our did you steal
it from M. Moore?

Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

slamming a war hero, not very patriotic.You guys call into question each
medal presented to our heros with each accusation, that they ALL may be
unearned, again not very patriotic. Bush lied about Alabama and MWD's, and
people died.IMHO.
"Bart Senior" wrote in message
. ..
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

Signers of the letter include the entire chain of command
above Lt. John Kerry in Vietnam: Lt. Commander Grant
Hibbard, Lt. Commander George Elliott, Captain Charles
Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG, and Rear
Admiral Roy Hoffman.

Hear what they have to say about John Kerry.


http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/st...00405150635513
24

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing,
manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the
most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant
supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and
river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw
or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities
described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been
my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority,
and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry
actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as
he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report
them. That he did not until later when it suited his political
purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind.
That he would malign my service and that of his fellow
sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally
unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour
indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation
with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing
from some members of that crew the morning after revealed
that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg)
Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch
on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared
to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to
me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had
exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being
advised of any medical treatment, and probably said
something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart
for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or w
hom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA
after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he
proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them
criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are
here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of
engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of
Swift often did not even return fire when they were under
fire if there was a possibility that innocent people--fishermen,
in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and
the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that
we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some
outrageous statements and allegations... numerous criminal
acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry,
disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict.
Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam?
Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry
gave numerous speeches and testimony before Congress
inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what
was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting
men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they
were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those
within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas
Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo
Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing
subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and
property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them,
and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain
of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It
was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not
reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men
including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the
television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men
and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains
-- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the
Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of
the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls
one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander
at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the
end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the
Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in
my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because
the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I
could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was
booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the
waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to
market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our
operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a
formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover
and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

worth considering--

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Bart Senior wrote:
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

I guess this is a good example of how "conservatives" always tell the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, Bart.

This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

DSK wrote in message ...
Bart Senior wrote:
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

I guess this is a good example of how "conservatives" always tell the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, Bart.

This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.

DSK

So what your saying Doug is all the officers Kerry served under are
liars?
That they just made up everything.

Seems quite a few people that were in Vietnam with Kerry see things a
whole lot differently than Kerry did. Kerry has a history of twisting
the truth, and the officers and men that sent the open letter to Kerry
do not.

So.... whos word should we trust?

Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:46:11 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 07:02:01 -0400, DSK said:

This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.

Hmm. Supported by only a small minority of 220 out of 229?

That may be, but many of those 220 never even met Kerry in Vietnam. Of
the dozen or so that actually served under Kerry's command, only one does
not support him.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...9270022.htm?1c

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

DSK said:
This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.


Dave wrote:
Hmm. Supported by only a small minority of 220 out of 229?

In other words, 220 out of 229 Vietnam vets who *might* have some
possible tracable connection to Kerry decided that they would become
paid shills for Bush. It seems likely to me that many of these names
quoted are totally fictional anyway.


I notice that there are *no* veterans who served with GWB Jr coming
forward to say whether he was even there, much less how fit for command
he is. Oops, sorry, that's "changing the subject" isn't it?

It comes down to what you want to believe. You and Bart (and many
others) hate & despise Kerry... you want to believe anything bad about
him. IMHO that's not a good foundation for voting one way or the other,
and even less of a justification for making numerous & vehement public
statements.

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:20:31 -0400, DSK wrote:

DSK said:
This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.


Dave wrote:
Hmm. Supported by only a small minority of 220 out of 229?

In other words, 220 out of 229 Vietnam vets who *might* have some
possible tracable connection to Kerry decided that they would become
paid shills for Bush. It seems likely to me that many of these names
quoted are totally fictional anyway.


I notice that there are *no* veterans who served with GWB Jr coming
forward to say whether he was even there, much less how fit for command
he is. Oops, sorry, that's "changing the subject" isn't it?

It comes down to what you want to believe. You and Bart (and many
others) hate & despise Kerry... you want to believe anything bad about
him. IMHO that's not a good foundation for voting one way or the other,
and even less of a justification for making numerous & vehement public
statements.

DSK

It makes you wonder what the standard is. These same "Republicans"
were smearing John McCain in the last election. It seems they go to
great efforts to find the least qualified candidate and then spend all
their efforts trying to tear down those obviously more qualified.
There is no room for a moderate in the Republican Party, although they
will certain hide behind one of the few they still have left.

It certainly makes you wonder what the *real* agenda is. I suspect if
you dig a little deeper it is all about the relatively quiet issues of
abortion and Gawd and sex education and all the other right wing
cultural crap that they know they can't win with. They float these
"gay marriage" balloons to keep the barking seals of the right wing
happy and energized, but otherwise spouting all this other nonsense
just makes them look silly to the rest of us.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

felton wrote:
It certainly makes you wonder what the *real* agenda is.

It doesn't make me wonder at all. I grew up with these people, or at
least their very close cultural & intellectual & spiritual & civic kin.
They are the KKKers and the John Birchers and the Bible-thumping whackos
who want to burn witches & keep slaves, and they are closely allied with
a number of large business interests (specifically oil & military
contracting) who see a gravy train.

Don't kid yourself, there is a strong possibility that President Bush
will get reelected. I don't remember if you're old enough to remember
the 1972 election... Nixon got reelected by a landslide, in the midst of
the most obvious corruption & Constitutional violations in history.
Jesse Helms, one of the last of the pea-brained old-time
fire-and-brimstone ******-bashing politicians, got elected in that same
race.

There are a lot of people out there who really really want this type of
"leadership." They are all going to get out & vote.

At the same time, Republicans have had four years to get their paws into
the election machinery and corrupt the process. This time, look for
large numbers of military absentee ballots to get "lost" and even larger
numbers of suspicious purges of the voter rolls.

... They float these
"gay marriage" balloons to keep the barking seals of the right wing
happy and energized

And that was a bit of rather cunical posturing. There is no chance at
all of getting a Constitutional amendment on that issue. They
deliberately chose the method of legally supressing gay marriage with
the lowest odds of success, and trumpet it to all the witch-burners.

... but otherwise spouting all this other nonsense
just makes them look silly to the rest of us.

Boths sides look pretty silly to me; but given a choice between plunging
the country into debt for the sake of Halliburton profits, ignoring
terrorism, weakening the military, shredding the Constitution,
alienating once-staunch allies, and turning the country into a de facto
militarist plutocracy... well let's just say I don't see that as a
"choice." And that's ignoring domestic issues such as health care,
education, & the environment.

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Dave wrote:
Doug, you're starting to sound like the very caricature of the loony left.

It sounds that way to you because you're one of the loony right.

My beliefs & values are actually rather conservative, but because I
don't buy into your heavily advertised fascist whacko malarkey, to you I
must be a liberal. Shucks, don't hold back, Bart has already called me a
traitor! Why let him get ahead of you?

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Bush doesn't have to have a history of twisting the truth,
since he lies constantly. He doesn't believe that issues
can be complex, because he's simple minded.

But, beyond that, if you believe that we're better off
economically and we're safer and more respected in
the world, you should vote for and encourage your
friends to vote for Bush.

If you believe otherwise, for for Kerry.

If you believe that there is no real difference between
the major parties, vote for Nader.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
DSK wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

I guess this is a good example of how "conservatives" always tell the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, Bart.

This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.

DSK

So what your saying Doug is all the officers Kerry served under are
liars?
That they just made up everything.

Seems quite a few people that were in Vietnam with Kerry see things a
whole lot differently than Kerry did. Kerry has a history of twisting
the truth, and the officers and men that sent the open letter to Kerry
do not.

So.... whos word should we trust?

Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

As are mine. But, Dave and company are so blinded by
ideology that anyone who takes a dissenting view is
an extremist liberal.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Dave wrote:
Doug, you're starting to sound like the very caricature of the loony
left.

It sounds that way to you because you're one of the loony right.

My beliefs & values are actually rather conservative, but because I
don't buy into your heavily advertised fascist whacko malarkey, to you I
must be a liberal. Shucks, don't hold back, Bart has already called me a
traitor! Why let him get ahead of you?

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

The soul?? Doubtful.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:35:21 -0400, DSK said:

Shucks, don't hold back, Bart has already called me a
traitor! Why let him get ahead of you?

Nah. I leave the name calling to you and Jonathan. I'm the soul of
moderation. g

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

"Michael Moore...may win an Oscar for the kind of work that got Stephen
Glass, Jayson Blair, and Jack Kelly fired"--NPR's Scott Simon

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Of course... look it up.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:20:31 -0400, DSK said:

In other words, 220 out of 229 Vietnam vets who *might* have some
possible tracable connection to Kerry decided that they would become
paid shills for Bush.

That's a fairly serious charge--that they're being paid for what they say.
Any evidence to back up the charge?


It seems likely to me that many of these names
quoted are totally fictional anyway.

Again, a fairly serious charge. What's the evidence?

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

"Michael Moore...may win an Oscar for the kind of work that got Stephen
Glass, Jayson Blair, and Jack Kelly fired"--NPR's Scott Simon

OT Kerry lied while Bush boozed and good men died OT
 

Your hero?? I'm shocked, shocked!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
We did to Saddam what we should of done to Hitler before he gained so
much power. Everyone knows how evil Saddam was.

Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

If you're incapable of looking it up for yourself, then
my giving you links won't do any good.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:14:19 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:

Of course... look it up.

So I take it you don't have any evidence of the charges Doug is leveling
either.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth

They'd be more aptly named "Swift Boat Veterans for Dishonesty".


"Bart Senior" wrote in message ...
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

Signers of the letter include the entire chain of command
above Lt. John Kerry in Vietnam: Lt. Commander Grant
Hibbard, Lt. Commander George Elliott, Captain Charles
Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG, and Rear
Admiral Roy Hoffman.

Hear what they have to say about John Kerry.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/st...40515063551324

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing,
manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the
most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant
supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and
river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw
or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities
described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been
my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority,
and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry
actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as
he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report
them. That he did not until later when it suited his political
purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind.
That he would malign my service and that of his fellow
sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally
unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour
indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation
with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing
from some members of that crew the morning after revealed
that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg)
Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch
on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared
to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to
me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had
exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being
advised of any medical treatment, and probably said
something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart
for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or w
hom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA
after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he
proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them
criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are
here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of
engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of
Swift often did not even return fire when they were under
fire if there was a possibility that innocent people--fishermen,
in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and
the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that
we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some
outrageous statements and allegations... numerous criminal
acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry,
disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict.
Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam?
Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry
gave numerous speeches and testimony before Congress
inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what
was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting
men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they
were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those
within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas
Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo
Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing
subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and
property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them,
and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain
of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It
was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not
reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men
including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the
television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men
and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains
-- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the
Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of
the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls
one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander
at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the
end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the
Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in
my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because
the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I
could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was
booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the
waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to
market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our
operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a
formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover
and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

worth considering--

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

zobicus wrote:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth

They'd be more aptly named "Swift Boat Veterans for Dishonesty".

The fact that their website is .com rather than .org suggests that they
are not a public service organization. A '527 organization' is defined
as one that tries to "influence the selection, nomination, election or
appointment of an individual to a federal, state, or local public office
or office in a political organization." In other words, they say they
are non-partisan and just trying to give us the facts but the fact they
*don't* give is that they are partisan by definition.

But let's be fair, take a look for yourself.
http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php

They say (quote):
"Senator John Kerry has made his 4-month combat tour in Vietnam the
centerpiece of his bid for the Presidency."

Actually, that's not the case. The Republicans have made Kerry's Viet
Nam record the centerpiece of *their* campaign against him.

Isn't it curious that this group had nothing to say during the
Democratic primaries? I also think it's rather curious that this group
of vets have nothing at all to say about requiring President Bush to
give some more details of *his* service.

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

You would suspect wrong.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:50:12 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:

If you're incapable of looking it up for yourself, then
my giving you links won't do any good.

I suspect you don't play poker very well either.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

DSK wrote in message news:gsuPc.3626$vp.3264@bignews2.



Slave owning, KKK'n, oilfield trashin, military wackos, fire and
Brimstone bible thumpin, pea brained, ****** bashing, witch
burning..people looking to hop on a gravy chain by starting
wars....That's truly how you see republicans?

Sheeeze you have some issues to deal with....This is 2004 not 1960

Did Kerry pay you to write that extreme propaganda? Our did you steal
it from M. Moore?

Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.

There are some Democrats who are just as bad, but not as many and
nowhere near as loud-mouthed about it.


Sheeeze you have some issues to deal with....This is 2004 not 1960

Meaning what? That it's well past the dawning of the Age of Aquarius?

Got news for you, Joe, some things never change.


Did Kerry pay you to write that extreme propaganda?

It is not propaganda, it's the truth. Did you like it? Maybe I should
change jobs.

Anyway, considering that one reason you support Bush is that he kills
large numbers of rag-heads, you should be proud to be a member of at
least some of the groups I mentioned.

DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.

I'll suggest a compromise. I was watching the Tonight Show last week
when Michael Moore was on and he made the fair point that he doesn't
consider the kinds of folks you are describing as Republicans, because
there are some "good Republicans." His term for these folks was
"Hatriots" (rhymes with Patriots). I think he is right. In the same
way that much of AM Talk Radio is really "hate radio" these days, all
aimed as the evil "liberals", this has become the means by which the
Republicans cling to power, even in the face of elections where they
can't win popular support. They have a great PR campaign going 24/7
convincing the kinds of folks you are describing that they are all
fighting against the evil (insert target group
here...minority/gay/Godless/liberal, etc) together. In the meantime,
their policies are benefitting the ultra-rich while screwing the
middle class and the poor. Now those ultra-rich..those are
Republicans:)





There are some Democrats who are just as bad, but not as many and
nowhere near as loud-mouthed about it.


Sheeeze you have some issues to deal with....This is 2004 not 1960

Meaning what? That it's well past the dawning of the Age of Aquarius?

Got news for you, Joe, some things never change.


Did Kerry pay you to write that extreme propaganda?

It is not propaganda, it's the truth. Did you like it? Maybe I should
change jobs.

Anyway, considering that one reason you support Bush is that he kills
large numbers of rag-heads, you should be proud to be a member of at
least some of the groups I mentioned.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Funny how 85% of the people that saw the
O'Reilly--Moore debate came away thinking
less of Moore.

Anyone who even considers what Moore says
is worth repeating, loses credibility.


"felton" wrote
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.

I'll suggest a compromise. I was watching the Tonight Show last week
when Michael Moore was on and he made the fair point that he doesn't
consider the kinds of folks you are describing as Republicans, because
there are some "good Republicans." His term for these folks was

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

way that much of AM Talk Radio is really "hate radio" these days, all
aimed as the evil "liberals", this has become the means by which the
Republicans cling to power, even in the face of elections where they
can't win popular support. They have a great PR campaign going 24/7
convincing the kinds of folks you are describing that they are all
fighting against the evil .........

in case you have not noticed, so does the left.
WNYC comes to mind, for one example.
gf.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Except for when he cites the facts, which is most of the
time, I agree with you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
t...
Funny how 85% of the people that saw the
O'Reilly--Moore debate came away thinking
less of Moore.

Anyone who even considers what Moore says
is worth repeating, loses credibility.


"felton" wrote
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.

I'll suggest a compromise. I was watching the Tonight Show last week
when Michael Moore was on and he made the fair point that he doesn't
consider the kinds of folks you are describing as Republicans, because
there are some "good Republicans." His term for these folks was

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

DSK wrote in message .. .
Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.

There are some Democrats who are just as bad, but not as many and
nowhere near as loud-mouthed about it.


Sheeeze you have some issues to deal with....This is 2004 not 1960

Meaning what? That it's well past the dawning of the Age of Aquarius?

Got news for you, Joe, some things never change.


Did Kerry pay you to write that extreme propaganda?

It is not propaganda, it's the truth. Did you like it? Maybe I should
change jobs.

Anyway, considering that one reason you support Bush is that he kills
large numbers of rag-heads, you should be proud to be a member of at
least some of the groups I mentioned.


If they are AlQueida rag heads, or Saddams murdering torturing rag
heads then you are correct, that is one reason I support Bush and our
troops. Id rather kill them before they kill us.

And I do support domestic production of Oil vs being held hostage by
the Saudis.

Joe










DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On 3 Aug 2004 10:27:08 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:53:18 GMT, felton said:

You really should read Richard Clark's book, "Against All Enemies".

Clark might have some credibility if he hadn't self-destructed by testifying
one way at non-public hearings, and a different way at public hearings in
order to sell his book. Unfortunately, he's joined Joe Wilson and Sandy
Berger in the cast of wannabes who never will be because they think
Americans will believe their fairy tales.


I have read his book and heard his public testimony. Perhaps you
could enlighten me on some of his "non-public hearings." I assume you
were in attendance.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Unfortunately, he apologized to the country and the victims, which
is more than Bush and company can tolerate. He also told the
truth, which is another sin in Bu****'s eyes, apparently.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:53:18 GMT, felton said:

You really should read Richard Clark's book, "Against All Enemies".

Clark might have some credibility if he hadn't self-destructed by
testifying
one way at non-public hearings, and a different way at public hearings in
order to sell his book. Unfortunately, he's joined Joe Wilson and Sandy
Berger in the cast of wannabes who never will be because they think
Americans will believe their fairy tales.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Dave was the little scrap dog they keep in the car to ward off
Democrats.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"felton" wrote in message
...
On 3 Aug 2004 10:27:08 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:53:18 GMT, felton said:

You really should read Richard Clark's book, "Against All Enemies".

Clark might have some credibility if he hadn't self-destructed by
testifying
one way at non-public hearings, and a different way at public hearings in
order to sell his book. Unfortunately, he's joined Joe Wilson and Sandy
Berger in the cast of wannabes who never will be because they think
Americans will believe their fairy tales.


I have read his book and heard his public testimony. Perhaps you
could enlighten me on some of his "non-public hearings." I assume you
were in attendance.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Rag heads? Oh, I forgot, you're a racist.

And, don't let the right-wing wackos hear you
say anything about oil independence... they're
definitely *not* interested in that.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
DSK wrote in message
.. .
Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.

There are some Democrats who are just as bad, but not as many and
nowhere near as loud-mouthed about it.


Sheeeze you have some issues to deal with....This is 2004 not 1960

Meaning what? That it's well past the dawning of the Age of Aquarius?

Got news for you, Joe, some things never change.


Did Kerry pay you to write that extreme propaganda?

It is not propaganda, it's the truth. Did you like it? Maybe I should
change jobs.

Anyway, considering that one reason you support Bush is that he kills
large numbers of rag-heads, you should be proud to be a member of at
least some of the groups I mentioned.


If they are AlQueida rag heads, or Saddams murdering torturing rag
heads then you are correct, that is one reason I support Bush and our
troops. Id rather kill them before they kill us.

And I do support domestic production of Oil vs being held hostage by
the Saudis.

Joe










DSK

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:16:48 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Unfortunately, he apologized to the country and the victims, which
is more than Bush and company can tolerate. He also told the
truth, which is another sin in Bu****'s eyes, apparently.

Well, it is a bit tiring when anyone strays from the party line we see
the same tactics time and again. A barrage of attacks on the
credibility of the messenger, many of them "anonymous", rather than
addressing the charges. Of course it isn't all that difficult to
accomplish that task as most of their audience willingly believes that
anything they are told that they don't wish to believe can't be true,
anyway.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

And, it's pretty easy to find dirt if you look hard enough,
which is a sad commentary on how people who tell the
truth for the public benefit are castigated.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:16:48 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Unfortunately, he apologized to the country and the victims, which
is more than Bush and company can tolerate. He also told the
truth, which is another sin in Bu****'s eyes, apparently.

Well, it is a bit tiring when anyone strays from the party line we see
the same tactics time and again. A barrage of attacks on the
credibility of the messenger, many of them "anonymous", rather than
addressing the charges. Of course it isn't all that difficult to
accomplish that task as most of their audience willingly believes that
anything they are told that they don't wish to believe can't be true,
anyway.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Well, the republicans certainly have the votes to do it....why
are they hesitating?? Woof little doggie! Sit!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:56:06 GMT, felton said:

Perhaps you
could enlighten me on some of his "non-public hearings."

I could pull a Ganz bluff and say "look it up." But here's a place to
look.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...arke-gop_x.htm

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

DSK wrote in message .. .
Joe wrote:
....That's truly how you see republicans?

That is how I see some Republicans because that is how they are.


Well Doug some democrats that I see are.

K-mart wearin, Welfare cheese eating, Koolaid drinking, baby
murdering, Tax Rasing, Hanoi Jane lovin, UN controlled, Barbra S.
listening, prison populating, Al Sharpton Jessie & Micheal Jackson
worshiping, unemployable, beggin, welfare check cashing, food stamp
spending, VW, yugo driving, tree huggin, French smellin, gay
supporting, project or trailor living, crack addicted, flag burning,
un-educated, lazy good for nothing protestors that rather spit on a
sailor, that support him. Poopin babies out as fast as they can to
increase the welfare check so they can buy more crack.


Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On 3 Aug 2004 12:07:05 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:56:06 GMT, felton said:

Perhaps you
could enlighten me on some of his "non-public hearings."

I could pull a Ganz bluff and say "look it up." But here's a place to look.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...arke-gop_x.htm


Thanks. As I suspected there were no facts there to back up your
claims. The Republicans *claim* his stories differed, the Democrats
say they don't, the Republicans don't want to declassify the reports
or charge him with perjury, but we are supposed to take their word for
it that it happened.

You make my case better than I did.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Joe the humanitarian....

.... some democrats that I see are.

K-mart wearin, Welfare cheese eating, Koolaid drinking, baby
murdering, Tax Rasing, Hanoi Jane lovin, UN controlled, Barbra S.
listening, prison populating, Al Sharpton Jessie & Micheal Jackson
worshiping, unemployable, beggin, welfare check cashing, food stamp
spending, VW, yugo driving, tree huggin, French smellin, gay
supporting, project or trailor living, crack addicted, flag burning,
un-educated, lazy good for nothing protestors that rather spit on a
sailor, that support him. Poopin babies out as fast as they can to
increase the welfare check so they can buy more crack.


Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:41:06 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Joe the humanitarian....

I think the term they use these days is "compassionate conservative":)


.... some democrats that I see are.

K-mart wearin, Welfare cheese eating, Koolaid drinking, baby
murdering, Tax Rasing, Hanoi Jane lovin, UN controlled, Barbra S.
listening, prison populating, Al Sharpton Jessie & Micheal Jackson
worshiping, unemployable, beggin, welfare check cashing, food stamp
spending, VW, yugo driving, tree huggin, French smellin, gay
supporting, project or trailor living, crack addicted, flag burning,
un-educated, lazy good for nothing protestors that rather spit on a
sailor, that support him. Poopin babies out as fast as they can to
increase the welfare check so they can buy more crack.


Joe

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

I wouldn't call it hate radio. That is the liberal
label used to bash this conservative medium.
The liberals control the press. Conservatives
turn to AM radio as their only media source.

Limbaugh is about laughing at the stupidity of
the extermist liberals.

Hannity is about disbelief that people can think
liberalism works.

Savage is pragmatic in that he believes Islam
means submit or die. This is how Islam started
and how it is spreading. It is still happening
today as Christian missionaries are killed on
a regular basis in Islamic countries.

"felton" wrote
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

way that much of AM Talk Radio is really "hate radio" these days, all
aimed as the evil "liberals", this has become the means by which the
Republicans cling to power, even in the face of elections where they
can't win popular support. They have a great PR campaign going 24/7
convincing the kinds of folks you are describing that they are all
fighting against the evil .........

in case you have not noticed, so does the left.
WNYC comes to mind, for one example.

OT Kerry lied while good men died
 

Rush is a lying drug addict. He lied to his "fans"
and he lied to everyone else. He claimed, for
example, that he didn't know or could control
how a picture of Chelsea Clinton was compared
with a picture of a dog. He claimed that it was
an uncorrectable mistake. Unfortunately, the clip
was taped hours before the show. He's a proven
liar, he's a racist, and he's a drug addict. Limbaugh
is about everyone laughing at him. He deserves it
just like he deserved to get thrown off TV.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
. ..
I wouldn't call it hate radio. That is the liberal
label used to bash this conservative medium.
The liberals control the press. Conservatives
turn to AM radio as their only media source.

Limbaugh is about laughing at the stupidity of
the extermist liberals.

Hannity is another liar, fraud, and right-wing freak.

Hannity is about disbelief that people can think
liberalism works.

Savage is a fool, who knows nothing about Islam
just like you don't. It's ok to kill 1000s of muslims
for no good reason, but it's not ok to kill a few
missionaries that were warned not to get in the way
of a war.

Savage is pragmatic in that he believes Islam
means submit or die. This is how Islam started
and how it is spreading. It is still happening
today as Christian missionaries are killed on
a regular basis in Islamic countries.

"felton" wrote
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:33:52 -0400, DSK wrote:

way that much of AM Talk Radio is really "hate radio" these days, all
aimed as the evil "liberals", this has become the means by which the
Republicans cling to power, even in the face of elections where they
can't win popular support. They have a great PR campaign going 24/7
convincing the kinds of folks you are describing that they are all
fighting against the evil .........

in case you have not noticed, so does the left.
WNYC comes to mind, for one example.