Last Friday we took out boat out in 13-20 mph winds with white caps and sailed
it perfectly and with much fun. We especially liked sailing close hauled with
spray and water splashing on us. We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits. We had the main reefed but with full
jib. I really don't think I want to go out in heavier winds. But we are
certainly no longer beginners at sailing. The problem now is that we are
spoiled. We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph. I'd go out in maybe
winds gusting to 25 mph, but beyond that, I'm sure I'd start breaking rigging.

We had the main reefed but with full
jib.

Try a smaller headsail.

RB

EdGordonRN wrote:
Last Friday we took out boat out in 13-20 mph winds with white caps and sailed
it perfectly and with much fun.

"perfectly"?? Sorry, nobody including Paul Elvstrom and Buddy Melges
sails perfectly. But I'm glad you're having a lot of fun, that's what it
should be like.

... We especially liked sailing close hauled with
spray and water splashing on us. We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits. We had the main reefed but with full
jib.

?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

.... I really don't think I want to go out in heavier winds. But we are
certainly no longer beginners at sailing. The problem now is that we are
spoiled. We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph. I'd go out in maybe
winds gusting to 25 mph, but beyond that, I'm sure I'd start breaking rigging.

Probably not. Unless you've mistreated it somehow, the rigging on that
boat should not break in the strongest winds you can keep it right-side up.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

EdGordonRN wrote:
We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits. We had the main reefed but with full
jib.

?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

It's not the norm, but it's not unheard of. For instance, CL boatworks
offers mainsail reef points for the CL-14 and CL-16 as a factory
option. Cost about $100 CDN.

.... I really don't think I want to go out in heavier winds. But we are
certainly no longer beginners at sailing. The problem now is that we are
spoiled. We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph. I'd go out in maybe
winds gusting to 25 mph, but beyond that, I'm sure I'd start breaking rigging.

Probably not. Unless you've mistreated it somehow, the rigging on that
boat should not break in the strongest winds you can keep it right-side up.

Well, the shrouds and forestay should hold (i.e. the mast shouldn't come
down) but everything else that can shake loose may well shake loose:
shackles, cleats, pintles, etc. When it's blowing the dog off the
chain, you'd better double check the mechanical integrity of
*everything* before going out (including yourself!).

--
//-Walt
//
// Sigs suck. Oh, the irony.

DSK wrote:
?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).


Walt wrote:
It's not the norm, but it's not unheard of. For instance, CL boatworks
offers mainsail reef points for the CL-14 and CL-16 as a factory
option. Cost about $100 CDN.

OK, but is it an option on a Hunter 146? I'd be suspicious that the
reefed sail shape might not be good, and that it may well put odd
stresses on the rig & spars.

I have seen some reefs put on daysailers in the 17' ~ 20' size range,
and most often it resulted in a boat that didn't sail any better than if
it was lugging the whole sail. Not to say that it couldn't be done, but
to design the rig from scratch for reefing capability would probably be
a big performance hit for normal sailing.



Well, the shrouds and forestay should hold (i.e. the mast shouldn't come
down) but everything else that can shake loose may well shake loose:
shackles, cleats, pintles, etc. When it's blowing the dog off the
chain, you'd better double check the mechanical integrity of
*everything* before going out (including yourself!).

True. Glad you put pintles on the list, these (and other rudder
fittings) can break in heavy air if either mistreated, neglected, or
poorly designed & built from scratch. BTW I consider failing to do
simple routine maintenance on the rig, like checking & taping pins &
shackles, a form of mistreatment. It's not rocket science and it ought
to be obvious to anybody who knows the rudiments of sailing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
DSK wrote:
?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

Walt wrote:
It's not the norm, but it's not unheard of. For instance, CL boatworks
offers mainsail reef points for the CL-14 and CL-16 as a factory
option. Cost about $100 CDN.

OK, but is it an option on a Hunter

Not that i'm aware of, but I'm sure you could have any loft install some
reef points for you. It's not like it takes an advanced degree in
aerodynamics or marine architecture to install some grommets and reef
lines.

146? I'd be suspicious that the
reefed sail shape might not be good, and that it may well put odd
stresses on the rig & spars.

You're suspicions are probably right, but while the sail shape may be
suboptimal and the stresses may be odd, I'd guss that just installing
some reef points to make take the bottom 18" out of the equation would
be close enough for most people.

I have seen some reefs put on daysailers in the 17' ~ 20' size range,
and most often it resulted in a boat that didn't sail any better than if
it was lugging the whole sail.

I consider "upright" to be sailing better than "not upright" . If it
accomplishes that, it's done the job.

Not to say that it couldn't be done, but
to design the rig from scratch for reefing capability would probably be
a big performance hit for normal sailing.

What boat were we talking about again?


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Walt wrote:
Not that i'm aware of, but I'm sure you could have any loft install some
reef points for you. It's not like it takes an advanced degree in
aerodynamics or marine architecture to install some grommets and reef
lines.

Good point.

The problem is that sail shape and relative foil area become a lot more
important, and produce more dramatic effects, as the wind increases.
This is why Navvie was so sure that *no* dinghy could be sailed in 30+
knot winds. A mom-and-pop reefing system may hack down the sail area,
and can even produce a not-horrible sail shape, but it's not going to
address any of the other issues and may only give a small increase in
sailable wind range. But hey, why am I being so picky? An increase in
sailable wind range is good!



.... I'd be suspicious that the
reefed sail shape might not be good, and that it may well put odd
stresses on the rig & spars.


You're suspicions are probably right, but while the sail shape may be
suboptimal and the stresses may be odd, I'd guss that just installing
some reef points to make take the bottom 18" out of the equation would
be close enough for most people.

Until you break the boom or the gooseneck or the rudder or something,
while out sailing in wind & wave conditions that make recovery a problem.

Then your insurance company might ask some embarrassing questions about
why you have reef points, and all the other XYZ 15s they insure do not...


I consider "upright" to be sailing better than "not upright" . If it
accomplishes that, it's done the job.

Agreed. But one can accomplish that in all sorts of ways, among which is
by learning to handle the boat properly. Learning how to depower a rig
can be as important and useful a skill as learning how to get max power.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

Walt wrote:

I'd guss that just installing
some reef points to make take the bottom 18" out of the equation would
be close enough for most people.

Until you break the boom or the gooseneck or the rudder or something,
while out sailing in wind & wave conditions that make recovery a problem.

Maybe I'm somewhat lacking in immagination, but I don't see how a
homebrew reefing system could cause the boom to break. If the odd
sailplan generates odd forces, my hunch is that they'd manifest
themselves as a boat that's difficult to control long before being large
enough to break things, although the wrong sail plan could cause enough
lee helm to over-stress the rudder.

Then your insurance company might ask some embarrassing questions about
why you have reef points, and all the other XYZ 15s they insure do not...

More likely they're going to ask why you were out in those conditions
when all the other XYZ 15s had gone in. Anyway I self-insure except for
liability, so I doubt I'd ever be having such a conversation. Actually
this whole thread is strictly armchair speculation for me - I'm not
planning on installing reef points any time in the forseeable future.


I consider "upright" to be sailing better than "not upright" . If it
accomplishes that, it's done the job.

Learning how to depower a rig
can be as important and useful a skill as learning how to get max power.

Absolutely. Once the wind gets above a certain point anybody can get
all the power they can handle out of the rig. The trick is to only
generate as much as you can handle.


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Walt wrote:
Maybe I'm somewhat lacking in immagination, but I don't see how a
homebrew reefing system could cause the boom to break.

It's not imagination, you're just not paranoid enough

But (slightly) more seriously, the reefing line is going to
simultaneously put a lot of compresson & some bending moment on the
boom. Combine that with the vang and/or mid-boom sheeting, weakness in
the boom introduced by drilling holes t mount the reefing gear, and
Presto! But i may be scratching pretty hard to find trouble here.

... If the odd
sailplan generates odd forces, my hunch is that they'd manifest
themselves as a boat that's difficult to control long before being large
enough to break things, although the wrong sail plan could cause enough
lee helm to over-stress the rudder.

Agreed. Shucks, some boats are hard to control under optimal circumstances.



Then your insurance company might ask some embarrassing questions about
why you have reef points, and all the other XYZ 15s they insure do not...


More likely they're going to ask why you were out in those conditions
when all the other XYZ 15s had gone in.

OK I withdraw that point of debate. Insurance isn't going to be a major
issue for small boats anyway (or at least, it shouldn't be).


Learning how to depower a rig
can be as important and useful a skill as learning how to get max power.


Absolutely. Once the wind gets above a certain point anybody can get
all the power they can handle out of the rig. The trick is to only
generate as much as you can handle.

It might be more sensible to get a heavy-air mainsail made, flatter with
no roach & no battens, possibly a shorter luff; instead of installing
reef points.

After all this, I'm beginning to suspect that the original post was a
troll anyway.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

EdGordonRN wrote:

Last Friday we took out boat out in 13-20 mph winds with white caps and sailed
it perfectly and with much fun. We especially liked sailing close hauled with
spray and water splashing on us. We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits.

Are you serious?

Cheers