No Longer a Beginner!
 

Last Friday we took out boat out in 13-20 mph winds with white caps and sailed
it perfectly and with much fun. We especially liked sailing close hauled with
spray and water splashing on us. We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits. We had the main reefed but with full
jib. I really don't think I want to go out in heavier winds. But we are
certainly no longer beginners at sailing. The problem now is that we are
spoiled. We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph. I'd go out in maybe
winds gusting to 25 mph, but beyond that, I'm sure I'd start breaking rigging.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

We had the main reefed but with full
jib.

Try a smaller headsail.

RB

No Longer a Beginner!
 

EdGordonRN wrote:
Last Friday we took out boat out in 13-20 mph winds with white caps and sailed
it perfectly and with much fun.

"perfectly"?? Sorry, nobody including Paul Elvstrom and Buddy Melges
sails perfectly. But I'm glad you're having a lot of fun, that's what it
should be like.

... We especially liked sailing close hauled with
spray and water splashing on us. We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits. We had the main reefed but with full
jib.

?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

.... I really don't think I want to go out in heavier winds. But we are
certainly no longer beginners at sailing. The problem now is that we are
spoiled. We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph. I'd go out in maybe
winds gusting to 25 mph, but beyond that, I'm sure I'd start breaking rigging.

Probably not. Unless you've mistreated it somehow, the rigging on that
boat should not break in the strongest winds you can keep it right-side up.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:

EdGordonRN wrote:
We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits. We had the main reefed but with full
jib.

?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

It's not the norm, but it's not unheard of. For instance, CL boatworks
offers mainsail reef points for the CL-14 and CL-16 as a factory
option. Cost about $100 CDN.

.... I really don't think I want to go out in heavier winds. But we are
certainly no longer beginners at sailing. The problem now is that we are
spoiled. We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph. I'd go out in maybe
winds gusting to 25 mph, but beyond that, I'm sure I'd start breaking rigging.

Probably not. Unless you've mistreated it somehow, the rigging on that
boat should not break in the strongest winds you can keep it right-side up.

Well, the shrouds and forestay should hold (i.e. the mast shouldn't come
down) but everything else that can shake loose may well shake loose:
shackles, cleats, pintles, etc. When it's blowing the dog off the
chain, you'd better double check the mechanical integrity of
*everything* before going out (including yourself!).

--
//-Walt
//
// Sigs suck. Oh, the irony.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:
?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).


Walt wrote:
It's not the norm, but it's not unheard of. For instance, CL boatworks
offers mainsail reef points for the CL-14 and CL-16 as a factory
option. Cost about $100 CDN.

OK, but is it an option on a Hunter 146? I'd be suspicious that the
reefed sail shape might not be good, and that it may well put odd
stresses on the rig & spars.

I have seen some reefs put on daysailers in the 17' ~ 20' size range,
and most often it resulted in a boat that didn't sail any better than if
it was lugging the whole sail. Not to say that it couldn't be done, but
to design the rig from scratch for reefing capability would probably be
a big performance hit for normal sailing.



Well, the shrouds and forestay should hold (i.e. the mast shouldn't come
down) but everything else that can shake loose may well shake loose:
shackles, cleats, pintles, etc. When it's blowing the dog off the
chain, you'd better double check the mechanical integrity of
*everything* before going out (including yourself!).

True. Glad you put pintles on the list, these (and other rudder
fittings) can break in heavy air if either mistreated, neglected, or
poorly designed & built from scratch. BTW I consider failing to do
simple routine maintenance on the rig, like checking & taping pins &
shackles, a form of mistreatment. It's not rocket science and it ought
to be obvious to anybody who knows the rudiments of sailing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:
DSK wrote:
?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

Walt wrote:
It's not the norm, but it's not unheard of. For instance, CL boatworks
offers mainsail reef points for the CL-14 and CL-16 as a factory
option. Cost about $100 CDN.

OK, but is it an option on a Hunter

Not that i'm aware of, but I'm sure you could have any loft install some
reef points for you. It's not like it takes an advanced degree in
aerodynamics or marine architecture to install some grommets and reef
lines.

146? I'd be suspicious that the
reefed sail shape might not be good, and that it may well put odd
stresses on the rig & spars.

You're suspicions are probably right, but while the sail shape may be
suboptimal and the stresses may be odd, I'd guss that just installing
some reef points to make take the bottom 18" out of the equation would
be close enough for most people.

I have seen some reefs put on daysailers in the 17' ~ 20' size range,
and most often it resulted in a boat that didn't sail any better than if
it was lugging the whole sail.

I consider "upright" to be sailing better than "not upright" . If it
accomplishes that, it's done the job.

Not to say that it couldn't be done, but
to design the rig from scratch for reefing capability would probably be
a big performance hit for normal sailing.

What boat were we talking about again?


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Walt wrote:
Not that i'm aware of, but I'm sure you could have any loft install some
reef points for you. It's not like it takes an advanced degree in
aerodynamics or marine architecture to install some grommets and reef
lines.

Good point.

The problem is that sail shape and relative foil area become a lot more
important, and produce more dramatic effects, as the wind increases.
This is why Navvie was so sure that *no* dinghy could be sailed in 30+
knot winds. A mom-and-pop reefing system may hack down the sail area,
and can even produce a not-horrible sail shape, but it's not going to
address any of the other issues and may only give a small increase in
sailable wind range. But hey, why am I being so picky? An increase in
sailable wind range is good!



.... I'd be suspicious that the
reefed sail shape might not be good, and that it may well put odd
stresses on the rig & spars.


You're suspicions are probably right, but while the sail shape may be
suboptimal and the stresses may be odd, I'd guss that just installing
some reef points to make take the bottom 18" out of the equation would
be close enough for most people.

Until you break the boom or the gooseneck or the rudder or something,
while out sailing in wind & wave conditions that make recovery a problem.

Then your insurance company might ask some embarrassing questions about
why you have reef points, and all the other XYZ 15s they insure do not...


I consider "upright" to be sailing better than "not upright" . If it
accomplishes that, it's done the job.

Agreed. But one can accomplish that in all sorts of ways, among which is
by learning to handle the boat properly. Learning how to depower a rig
can be as important and useful a skill as learning how to get max power.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:

Walt wrote:

I'd guss that just installing
some reef points to make take the bottom 18" out of the equation would
be close enough for most people.

Until you break the boom or the gooseneck or the rudder or something,
while out sailing in wind & wave conditions that make recovery a problem.

Maybe I'm somewhat lacking in immagination, but I don't see how a
homebrew reefing system could cause the boom to break. If the odd
sailplan generates odd forces, my hunch is that they'd manifest
themselves as a boat that's difficult to control long before being large
enough to break things, although the wrong sail plan could cause enough
lee helm to over-stress the rudder.

Then your insurance company might ask some embarrassing questions about
why you have reef points, and all the other XYZ 15s they insure do not...

More likely they're going to ask why you were out in those conditions
when all the other XYZ 15s had gone in. Anyway I self-insure except for
liability, so I doubt I'd ever be having such a conversation. Actually
this whole thread is strictly armchair speculation for me - I'm not
planning on installing reef points any time in the forseeable future.


I consider "upright" to be sailing better than "not upright" . If it
accomplishes that, it's done the job.

Learning how to depower a rig
can be as important and useful a skill as learning how to get max power.

Absolutely. Once the wind gets above a certain point anybody can get
all the power they can handle out of the rig. The trick is to only
generate as much as you can handle.


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Walt wrote:
Maybe I'm somewhat lacking in immagination, but I don't see how a
homebrew reefing system could cause the boom to break.

It's not imagination, you're just not paranoid enough ;)

But (slightly) more seriously, the reefing line is going to
simultaneously put a lot of compresson & some bending moment on the
boom. Combine that with the vang and/or mid-boom sheeting, weakness in
the boom introduced by drilling holes t mount the reefing gear, and
Presto! But i may be scratching pretty hard to find trouble here.

... If the odd
sailplan generates odd forces, my hunch is that they'd manifest
themselves as a boat that's difficult to control long before being large
enough to break things, although the wrong sail plan could cause enough
lee helm to over-stress the rudder.

Agreed. Shucks, some boats are hard to control under optimal circumstances.



Then your insurance company might ask some embarrassing questions about
why you have reef points, and all the other XYZ 15s they insure do not...


More likely they're going to ask why you were out in those conditions
when all the other XYZ 15s had gone in.

OK I withdraw that point of debate. Insurance isn't going to be a major
issue for small boats anyway (or at least, it shouldn't be).


Learning how to depower a rig
can be as important and useful a skill as learning how to get max power.


Absolutely. Once the wind gets above a certain point anybody can get
all the power they can handle out of the rig. The trick is to only
generate as much as you can handle.

It might be more sensible to get a heavy-air mainsail made, flatter with
no roach & no battens, possibly a shorter luff; instead of installing
reef points.

After all this, I'm beginning to suspect that the original post was a
troll anyway.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

No Longer a Beginner!
 

EdGordonRN wrote:

Last Friday we took out boat out in 13-20 mph winds with white caps and sailed
it perfectly and with much fun. We especially liked sailing close hauled with
spray and water splashing on us. We have a Hunter 146, and I think it's safe to
say, we were pushing it to its limits.

Are you serious?

Cheers

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:


This is why Navvie was so sure that *no* dinghy could be sailed in 30+
knot winds.

Unmanageable does not mean can't be sailed. Look it up.

Cheers

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:
This is why Navvie was so sure that *no* dinghy could be sailed in 30+
knot winds.


Navigator wrote:
Unmanageable does not mean can't be sailed. Look it up.

Look it up where?

Are you suggesting that a boat which is "unmanageable" is still being
properly & safely sailed?

But other than that, you're right. I apologize, the two terms should be
kept seperate.

DSK

No Longer a Beginner!
 

"Walt" wrote in message
...

Maybe I'm somewhat lacking in immagination, but I don't see how a
homebrew reefing system could cause the boom to break. If the odd
sailplan generates odd forces, my hunch is that they'd manifest
themselves as a boat that's difficult to control long before being large
enough to break things, although the wrong sail plan could cause enough
lee helm to over-stress the rudder.


My experience with small boats is that most damage is caused by being out of
control, not simply from overstressing gear. Capsizing, and righting a boat,
is extremely hard on the gear, as is dipping a tightly vanged boom. etc.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

After all this, I'm beginning to suspect that the original post was a
troll anyway.

The use of mph for wind speeds does seem a tad Jimspritish...


No, Ed already told us that the Weather Channel is what he relies on for
forecasts.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:

After all this, I'm beginning to suspect that the original post was a
troll anyway.

The use of mph for wind speeds does seem a tad Jimspritish...


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

No Longer a Beginner!
 

"perfectly"?? Sorry, nobody including Paul Elvstrom and Buddy Melges
sails perfectly. But I'm glad you're having a lot of fun, that's what it
should be like.

Well, true. But we didn't capsize.

?? Never seen reef points on a Hunter 146 (or any other boat that size).

Yeah, our main sail has them, one set anyway. So did our apollo when we had
that one, and it was 16 ft.

Probably not. Unless you've mistreated it somehow, the rigging on that
boat should not break in the strongest winds you can keep it right-side up.

I hope you're right. But the boat doesn't come with hiking straps, and I put
them in. Still, you're probably right. 10 mph more and we wouldn't have kept it
upright on tacks and yet I don't think the rigging would have broke.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Well, the shrouds and forestay should hold (i.e. the mast shouldn't come
down) but everything else that can shake loose may well shake loose:
shackles, cleats, pintles, etc.

That's exactly what I meant. I began to worry a little about the cam cleats for
the jib.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Are you serious?

Cheers


Maybe we were pushing ourselves to our limits. And, yes, I use mph. I never got
the feeling for knots. I only convert to knots when I look up the wind force on
the scale in my sailing book. I and my wife are totally self-taught as a
sailors, and we're proud of that fact.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

EdGordonRN wrote:

And, yes, I use mph. I
never got the feeling for knots.

How did you get a feeling for wind speed in mph?


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

No Longer a Beginner!
 

DSK wrote:
DSK wrote:

This is why Navvie was so sure that *no* dinghy could be sailed in
30+ knot winds.



Navigator wrote:

Unmanageable does not mean can't be sailed. Look it up.


Look it up where?

OED:

Incapable of being properly or conveniently handled or manipulated.

1658 PHILLIPS, Immanity,..such a hugenesse as renders a thing
unmanageable. 1779 Phil. Trans. LXIX. 422 It required an index of an
unmanageable length. 1805 in Nicolas Disp. Nelson (1846) VII. 166 So
that the Ship was entirely unmanageable.

Note the last example...


But other than that, you're right. I apologize, the two terms should be
kept seperate.


A maybe subtle difference but important I feel.

Cheers

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Wally wrote:

EdGordonRN wrote:


And, yes, I use mph. I
never got the feeling for knots.


How did you get a feeling for wind speed in mph?



When he was young he stuck his head out of his fathers car and felt the
wind. Flies getting stuck to his lolling tongue may have been a bit
unpleasent for him though.


Cheers

No Longer a Beginner!
 

And, yes, I use mph. I never got
the feeling for knots.

Must be fun using a chart.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

No Longer a Beginner!
 

We refuse to go sailing if the wind is 9 mph

Teh you are still beginner sailors....it is a challenge to sail in light
air...it is sometimes harder to sail in light air....get a spinnaker and
hone your skills in those less than 9 days....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Teh you are still beginner sailors....it is a challenge to sail in light
air...it is sometimes harder to sail in light air....get a spinnaker and
hone your skills in those less than 9 days...

Don't tell this to Wally! He thinks running a spin in light air is child's
play!

RB

No Longer a Beginner!
 

How did you get a feeling for wind speed in mph?

All my life, I have had the weather reports on TV, and now on the web--all in
MPH

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Teh you are still beginner sailors....it is a challenge to sail in light
air...it is sometimes harder to sail in light air....get a spinnaker and
hone your skills in those less than 9 days....

Forget that. Although a spinnaker might be interesting. What kind of point of
sail can you get with a spinnaker--isn't it only for running?

No Longer a Beginner!
 

If you're going to the web and not getting the marine forecast, you're still a
beginner.


"EdGordonRN" wrote in message
...
How did you get a feeling for wind speed in mph?

All my life, I have had the weather reports on TV, and now on the web--all in
MPH

No Longer a Beginner!
 

If you're going to the web and not getting the marine forecast, you're still a
beginner.

Not on the LIS. I find checking several web weather sites are more accurate
than NOAA alone.
If Edgar wants to use MPH what difference does it make? None.

RB

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Yes - the "lubbers" forecast (I use Wunderground) is handy for many aspects of
the weather. But for telling the wind strength and direction, as well as wave
heights, the marine forecast is needed. In addition, the marine forecast will
give wind and water predictions for both protected and unprotected waters, as
well as any marine advisories. I would think that anyone venturing out,
especially in a small boat, would be interested in these things.


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
If you're going to the web and not getting the marine forecast, you're still a
beginner.

Not on the LIS. I find checking several web weather sites are more accurate
than NOAA alone.
If Edgar wants to use MPH what difference does it make? None.

RB

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

I would think that anyone venturing out,
especially in a small boat, would be interested in these things.

The operative words being "venturing out", when tied to the dock, what difference does it make? "None.", to quote Bob.

Cheers
Marty

No Longer a Beginner!
 

EdGordonRN wrote:

Teh you are still beginner sailors....it is a challenge to sail in light
air...it is sometimes harder to sail in light air....get a spinnaker and
hone your skills in those less than 9 days....


Forget that. Although a spinnaker might be interesting. What kind of point of
sail can you get with a spinnaker--isn't it only for running?

Ed, perhaps you should have taken a lesson or two, look up asymmetric spinnakers
and see what you can find about sailing with one, definitely not for running!

Cheers
Marty

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Read again, Marty.

Not on the LIS. I find checking several web weather sites are more accurate
than NOAA alone.

Get your crayons out!
What a dope!

RB

No Longer a Beginner!
 

If you're going to the web and not getting the marine forecast, you're still
a
beginner.

Why? Weather.com's beach report is perfect. I've gotton the marine report for
our area, and it doesn't given any more information. You sound like you need to
look "mariner" at all times. You wear one of those captain hats when you sail,
don't you?

No Longer a Beginner!
 

If Edgar wants to use MPH what difference does it make? None.

RB

Exactly. Because the fact is, my wife and I sail all the time. We sailed today.
We sailed, I believe a total of six miles, according to the road map I use as a
chart. 3 miles was beating against approximately 11 mile an hour winds, and of
course 3 miles on a run on the way back. What was cool, this time, is that we
went into deeper waters and got some good splashes over the bow. We even planed
a few times in some gusts, and on the way back we could feel the waves pushing
us like our boat was body surfing. It was a good day. And imagine: I never
consulted NOAA or a nautical chart even once. And we both refuse to use terms
like "jibe-ho" or "helms-a-lee."

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Yes - the "lubbers" forecast (I use Wunderground) is handy for many aspects
of the weather. But for telling the wind strength and direction, as well as
wave heights, the marine forecast is needed. In addition, the marine
forecast
will give wind and water predictions for both protected and unprotected
waters, as
well as any marine advisories. I would think that anyone venturing out,
especially in a small boat, would be interested in these things.

Nonsense. Weather.com gives wind direction, speed, and wave height. It also
gives temp, humidity, etc, and it forcasts each hour over a 12 hour stretch. We
wouldn't be sailing during small craft advisories, so who cares about them. I
can see if one has an off-shore boat that they'd want a marine radio, but we
get by and we never use the term "lubber." Nor do we have a parrot that sits on
our shoulder, nor do we hunt large white whales.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Ed, perhaps you should have taken a lesson or two, look up asymmetric
spinnakers
and see what you can find about sailing with one, definitely not for running!

Why take a lesson when I already know how to sail, and I sail all the time? Why
take a lesson when I can read what I want to know in a book? As for spinnakers,
we were running today and talked about it, and there's no real reason for it on
our boat. Too much hassle and modification necessary. And for any other point
of sail, the last thing we need is more sail area. Consider that the boat we
sail is not a racing dinghy. It's well designed, very strong and fast, but it's
not a racer.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Pretty easy really. 1 nm= about 1.1 mile, so speed in mph = 1.1 speed in
knots.

1.15 and a bunch of other decimal places, but who cares? When we sail, we sail
for about two hours. 25 minutes to the dock, about 30 minutes to set up, 2
hours sailing, 30 minutes to take down and 25 minutes home. We flake the sail,
and wash the boat the next day. We don't get burned out and we don't get
frustrated. And we don't pretend to be sailors. We are sailors. Bottom line.

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Sorry Ed, I don't pride myself in ignorance. It seems to be a virtue for you.



"EdGordonRN" wrote in message
...
If you're going to the web and not getting the marine forecast, you're still
a
beginner.

Why? Weather.com's beach report is perfect. I've gotton the marine report for
our area, and it doesn't given any more information. You sound like you need
to
look "mariner" at all times. You wear one of those captain hats when you sail,
don't you?

No Longer a Beginner!
 

Edsprit wrote:
Pretty easy really. 1 nm= about 1.1 mile, so speed in mph = 1.1
speed in knots.

1.15 and a bunch of other decimal places, but who cares? When we
sail, we sail for about two hours. 25 minutes to the dock, about 30
minutes to set up, 2 hours sailing, 30 minutes to take down and 25
minutes home. We flake the sail, and wash the boat the next day. We
don't get burned out and we don't get frustrated.

What does thinking in nautical miles have to do with getting burned out or
frustrated?


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

No Longer a Beginner!
 

What does thinking in nautical miles have to do with getting burned out or
frustrated?

Nothing. The bottom line is: we sail. We don't need "sailorly" things unless
they aid what we do.