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But the plain fact is that there are a lot of things
on boats that have no counterpart in everyday life. If you want to talk about them, then you need to know the right word(s). EdGordonRN wrote: If my wife turned to me in the boat and said "harden up" I'm afraid my only reply would have to be: "Right here? Right now?" So, why don't you tell me what it means? I have a feeling it has something to do with sheeting in the main or jib to keep them from luffing, but I honestly don't know, and as you can see, it means so much to me. Good guess, that is what it means, in conjuction with the helm. This would be said by a helmsman to let the crew know that he was turning towards the wind slightly, and to pull the sheets in. Thus it's a nautical phrase that would only be used in sailing, and it's not phony at all. DSK |
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EdGordonRN wrote:
If my wife turned to me in the boat and said "harden up" I'm afraid my only reply would have to be: "Right here? Right now?" So, why don't you tell me what it means? I have a feeling it has something to do with sheeting in the main or jib to keep them from luffing, but I honestly don't know, and as you can see, it means so much to me. Go from a reach to a beat. Opposite of 'bear away'. Since you have a desire to eschew standard nautical terminology, what would you call it? -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Why are you adding in factors that he hasn't mentioned?
Because they are typical factors. Boats that sail close hauled also fall off from time to time, especially when they are out for a daysail. Are you suggesting that Ed was hard on the wind, eyes blazing as he went upwind as far as possible? Puh-lease. Wally, you've been exposed as a simple and rather poor troll, trying to apply exact math to someone casual comments about a daysail. Shame on you. Launch your boat and you'll feel less bitter. RB |
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Not to get in-between what is shaping up to be a good fight, but we were all
over the points of sail. In general we beat it out and ran back. As for the road map I use, it doesn't show depth, but I have a kick up centerboard that stats to make a funny noise when it scraps the bottom. Is there a term for that? I suppose I'm supposed to yell out" "scrapings-a-hove" or some such thing. That does it, damnit! I'm getting a cheesy fake parrot to pin to the shoulder of my wetsuit and I'm getting an eye patch, too. |
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So, if the wind drops below 9mph, you'll be paddling? Becalmed? Eaten by
seagulls? If we're becalmed, we anchor, swim, paddle or whatever, but we don't go out if there's no wind. Why would we? |
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Bobsprit wrote:
Because they are typical factors. Boats that sail close hauled also fall off from time to time, especially when they are out for a daysail. Are you suggesting that Ed was hard on the wind, eyes blazing as he went upwind as far as possible? I'll allow for some gusts, and I'll allow for the odd fall away or luff up when the helm admires the view. Even allowing for these factors (which I agree are typical), I'd still like to hear how much weather helm is typical in an 11mph wind, such that a 3 mile beat, followed by a 3 mile run, will take you back to your start point. I don't *think* he said he was sailing a raft... ...maybe you think he was? -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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I think he's counting on being swept up in the Rapture.
No such thing. The first coming of Christ was Jesus, the second coming is when you become Christ and begin to establish the kingdom of God on earth. I could talk about this all day--are you sure you want to go there? |
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EdGordonRN wrote:
Not to get in-between what is shaping up to be a good fight, but we were all over the points of sail. In general we beat it out and ran back. As for the road map I use, it doesn't show depth, but I have a kick up centerboard that stats to make a funny noise when it scraps the bottom. Is there a term for that? I suppose I'm supposed to yell out" "scrapings-a-hove" or some such thing. Something like, "oops", "ah", or "very interesting" will suffice. That does it, damnit! I'm getting a cheesy fake parrot to pin to the shoulder of my wetsuit and I'm getting an eye patch, too. You have to start from the basics - name your boat after a famous pirate ship and fly the Jolly Roger. Then work on the parrot and the eye patch. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Go from a reach to a beat. Opposite of 'bear away'.
Since you have a desire to eschew standard nautical terminology, what would you call it? Hmph. I never knew that. Harden up. We were saying "head up." If we were on a reach we would say, "head up a little" to change direction into the wind and go close hauled. So, what does head up mean, then? |
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EdGordonRN wrote:
As for the road map I use, it doesn't show depth, but I have a kick up centerboard that stats to make a funny noise when it scraps the bottom. Is there a term for that? Yes. It's called running aground. I suppose I'm supposed to yell out" "scrapings-a-hove" or some such thing. I believe the proper nautical terminology is "Crap! Pull the centerboard up!" -- // Walt // // There is no Volkl Conspiracy |
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Are you suffering from memory failure? I said this ages ago.
Usually...after some ages go by....people launch their boats! RB |
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EdGordonRN wrote:
So, if the wind drops below 9mph, you'll be paddling? Becalmed? Eaten by seagulls? If we're becalmed, we anchor, swim, paddle or whatever, but we don't go out if there's no wind. Why would we? I guess it depends on why you go sailing. I'm pretty new to it and I'm crewing on a Sonata which races twice a week. The racing is fun in itself and I'm finding it good for learning in a range of conditions. One thing I've learned is that, even if there's no wind at the dock, that's no indication of whether there's any wind out on the water (and vice versa). While it might seem antithetical to go sailing when there's little wind, the best way to find out how to make way in such conditions is to go out and try it. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Bobsprit wrote:
Are you suffering from memory failure? I said this ages ago. Usually...after some ages go by....people launch their boats! My boat is being restored. I said this ages ago as well. If it was ready for the water, it would be in. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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My boat is being restored. I said this ages ago as well. If it was ready for
the water, it would be in. Didn't you sail it last year? RB |
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I'll allow for some gusts, and I'll allow for the odd fall away or luff up
when the helm admires the view. Even allowing for these factors (which I agree are typical), I'd still like to hear how much weather helm is typical in an 11mph wind, such that a 3 mile beat, followed by a 3 mile run, will take you back to your start point. If you'll allow that, then your point is moot. Sorry. He could have been on a run. RB |
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we never want to put a motor on our boat.
So, if the wind drops below 9mph, you'll be paddling? Becalmed? Eaten by seagulls? You can tell Wally has sailed very little. I know of several boats that sail from my area without motors, including a J29, J24 and a R19. My friend's Lightening has no motor. I sailed by Catalina 27 with no motor for a week while the tank was cleaned and hoses replaced. RB |
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EdGordonRN wrote:
Hmph. I never knew that. Harden up. We were saying "head up." If we were on a reach we would say, "head up a little" to change direction into the wind and go close hauled. So, what does head up mean, then? Not sure - it might mean the same thing, or it might mean the same as "luff up" (point directly into the wind, such that the sails are flapping). Some things seem to have more than one term, like "helm's a-lee" and "lee-o" for a tack. My skipper usually says something like, "okay, lads, going now..." (we're expected to know that our next maneuvre is a tack). As long as you both understand what a term means, you'll be fine, but there could be miscommunication if you ever sail with someone else - that's why there are standard nautical terms. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Ed, you asked what kind of boat I have...here she is. My wife and I sail her
out of City Island. http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/index.html RB |
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Bobsprit wrote:
My boat is being restored. I said this ages ago as well. If it was ready for the water, it would be in. Didn't you sail it last year? Nope. I didn't sail at all last year - in the autumn, I helped out with rescue boat duties for the club's dinghy racing and realised how much I was missing being on the water. The Sonata crewing I've been doing this year is my first taste of yacht sailing after some dinghy stuff in 2002 - I see it as the next stage in my 'apprenticeship'. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Bobsprit wrote:
You can tell Wally has sailed very little. I am but a sweet, innocent, fresh-faced n00b. I know of several boats that sail from my area without motors, including a J29, J24 and a R19. My friend's Lightening has no motor. I sailed by Catalina 27 with no motor for a week while the tank was cleaned and hoses replaced. I wasn't advocating the use of a motor for anything below 9mph. Rather, gaining some experience in lighter air would allow Ed to extend his enjoyment. We sail in and out of the slip whenever the wind is favourable. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Bobsprit wrote:
If you'll allow that, then your point is moot. Sorry. He could have been on a run. He could have been, but is it likely, given typical weather helm and steering errors? How much weather helm is typical in an 11mph wind, Bob? -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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If you'll allow that, then your point is moot.
Sorry. He could have been on a run. He could have been, but is it likely, given typical weather helm and steering errors? Sure is. Wind direction could also have shifted. There are plenty of ways. But you sought, for some unknown reason, to question it. Now you've fallen into your own hole. I'm not about to throw you a line. RB |
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I wasn't advocating the use of a motor for anything below 9mph. Rather,
gaining some experience in lighter air would allow Ed to extend his enjoyment. I'm sure Ed will get stuck in the light stuff over time. He doesn't need a stinky motor weighing down his small boat. He'll learn more without it for now. RB |
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Wally wrote:
Bobsprit wrote: He could have been, but is it likely, given typical weather helm and steering errors? How much weather helm is typical in an 11mph wind, Bob? I don't think you're using the term "weather helm" in the same sense as the rest of us. What do you mean by that term? It sounds like you mean you mean leeway instead. Anyway, the amount of weather helm (or leeway for that matter) will depend greatly on the particular boat and how it's sailed. In particular, you'll get a lot less of both if you keep it flat. -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif |
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Wally wrote:
EdGordonRN wrote: Hmph. I never knew that. Harden up. We were saying "head up." If we were on a reach we would say, "head up a little" to change direction into the wind and go close hauled. So, what does head up mean, then? Not sure - it might mean the same thing, While they're similar, there's a subtle difference between "head up" and "harden up". To head up is to turn the boat to windward. This might be done to respond to a change in wind direction or speed - i.e. when a puff hits the apparent wind moves aft allowing you to head up without re-trimming the sails. To harden up is go to a higher point of sail. This involves trimming in the sails and is usually accompanied by a change in direction as well (heading up). But not always - i.e. if you're on a reach and encounter a header you might harden up without heading up. That said, on a dinghy where you're constantly trimming and feathering anyway it may be a distinction without a difference. -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif |
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EdGordonRN wrote:
I think he's counting on being swept up in the Rapture. No such thing. The first coming of Christ was Jesus, the second coming is when you become Christ and begin to establish the kingdom of God on earth. And here I thought it was impossible to get good quality LSD these days... -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif |
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Walt wrote:
I don't think you're using the term "weather helm" in the same sense as the rest of us. What do you mean by that term? It sounds like you mean you mean leeway instead. Ah, yes, my mistake. (Cue derisory remark from Bob...) -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Wally wrote:
Walt wrote: I don't think you're using the term "weather helm" in the same sense as the rest of us. What do you mean by that term? It sounds like you mean you mean leeway instead. Ah, yes, my mistake. Ok. Then you should also be aware of the fact that "beating" usually means sailing close hauled and tacking back and forth to go to a point directly upwind. So it's entirely reasonably for someone to beat three miles upwind and run three miles back to his starting point. (although the total distance sailed would be more than 6 miles) Of course, since Ed is terminologically impared, who knows what the heck he did. -- //-Walt // // ...and who cares, really? |
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Walt wrote:
To head up is to turn the boat to windward. This might be done to respond to a change in wind direction or speed - i.e. when a puff hits the apparent wind moves aft allowing you to head up without re-trimming the sails. To harden up is go to a higher point of sail. This involves trimming in the sails and is usually accompanied by a change in direction as well (heading up). But not always - i.e. if you're on a reach and encounter a header you might harden up without heading up. Aha. Thanks for the explanation. That said, on a dinghy where you're constantly trimming and feathering anyway it may be a distinction without a difference. Yup, I can see that. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Walt wrote:
Ok. Then you should also be aware of the fact that "beating" usually means sailing close hauled and tacking back and forth to go to a point directly upwind. So it's entirely reasonably for someone to beat three miles upwind and run three miles back to his starting point. Got the idea. Would a single leg between tacks therefore be called "a beat", or is it more like a collective term for the series of tacks? (although the total distance sailed would be more than 6 miles) Yup, we had a little conversation about this on Sunday. I came up with three ways to reckon distance - as the crow flies, through the water, and over ground. Of course, since Ed is terminologically impared, who knows what the heck he did. Quite. -- Wally www.forthsailing.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
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Wally wrote:
Walt wrote: Ok. Then you should also be aware of the fact that "beating" usually means sailing close hauled and tacking back and forth to go to a point directly upwind. So it's entirely reasonably for someone to beat three miles upwind and run three miles back to his starting point. Got the idea. Would a single leg between tacks therefore be called "a beat", or is it more like a collective term for the series of tacks? It's usually used as a collective term for the series. -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif |
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Got the idea. Would a single leg between tacks therefore be called "a beat",
or is it more like a collective term for the series of tacks? Jeepers creepers! RB |
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Harden up because the sheets will have to be tightened.
Cheers EdGordonRN wrote: Go from a reach to a beat. Opposite of 'bear away'. Since you have a desire to eschew standard nautical terminology, what would you call it? Hmph. I never knew that. Harden up. We were saying "head up." If we were on a reach we would say, "head up a little" to change direction into the wind and go close hauled. So, what does head up mean, then? |
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I believe the proper nautical terminology is "Crap! Pull the
centerboard up!" Indeed! :) |
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While it might seem antithetical to go sailing when there's little wind, the
best way to find out how to make way in such conditions is to go out and try it. That's true, but it's different if you're racing or if your in a cruising boat. A dinghy without wind is truly pathetic. |
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Ed, you asked what kind of boat I have...here she is. My wife and I sail her
out of City Island. http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/index.html RB Wow! That is truly a fantastic boat. I envy you. We think that one day we might have a bigger boat. We used to have a Mac 26X, but we sold it. We want to buy land first, though. We may never return to big boats, but it sure is nice to see them sail and to look at pictures of them and imagine us sailing them vicariously. Who knows what the future holds, but that's a nice boat. Good on you. Ed |
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As long as you both understand what a term means, you'll be fine, but there
could be miscommunication if you ever sail with someone else - that's why there are standard nautical terms Agreed. |
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While they're similar, there's a subtle difference between "head up" and
"harden up". To head up is to turn the boat to windward. This might be done to respond to a change in wind direction or speed - i.e. when a puff hits the apparent wind moves aft allowing you to head up without re-trimming the sails. To harden up is go to a higher point of sail. This involves trimming in the sails and is usually accompanied by a change in direction as well (heading up). But not always - i.e. if you're on a reach and encounter a header you might harden up without heading up. That said, on a dinghy where you're constantly trimming and feathering anyway it may be a distinction without a difference. http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif Yes, I understand that. Thanks for clearing it up. |
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Ok. Then you should also be aware of the fact that "beating" usually
means sailing close hauled and tacking back and forth to go to a point directly upwind. So it's entirely reasonably for someone to beat three miles upwind and run three miles back to his starting point. (although the total distance sailed would be more than 6 miles) Of course, since Ed is terminologically impared, who knows what the heck he did. No, that's exactly what I meant. |
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Who knows what the future holds, but that's a nice boat. Good on
you. Having a small cruising boat like mine is more about having time, rather than money. Just about anyone can have a nice cruising boat if they're clever about it. Some people aren't. Glad you're having fun with your boat. Sail the way you want, just do it safely. Don't let any of the bitter folk here tell you what to do. RB |
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