DSK wrote:

Yes but it would look better without those in any case. A better
comparison would be with (harder to draw in, I know)

(With?) I've added a photo showing the original window shape, but with the
stanchions and lifelines removed.


I'd be very afraid of weakening the structure... DON'T cut that
beam... in fact don't cut within 3 or 4 inches of it. The fiberglass
flange where it joins the coach roof molding is sure to be a
structural element. You can add fiberglass channels around the edge
of the new port opening for stiffness, but it'd be a major
engineering job to design & build a new mast step support.

I'm not planning to cut the opening at all. The new shape is basically a
go-faster stripe.


The plus side of bigger windows is more light inside (the tint looks
cool, but don't overdo it). The downside is a weaker coach roof.

The reason for going for a tint is to disguise the outline of the aperture
underneath - I may darken the GRP around the aperture if it shows through
the tint. It could do with some more light inside, and I'm looking into the
possibility of putting a Houdini-type hatch on the cabin roof forward of the
mast. It has a little 'ventilight' thing there at the moment. I think some
MkI Foxcubs (the Super model, perhaps) were fitted with a Houdini in this
location, so I think it will be okay structurally.


I'd put the acrylic on the outside, beveled, onto a mated surface
around the edge of the port, and use small screws only to hold it in
place while the 5200 dries.

Is that an adhesive sealant? If so, would there be problems with trying to
remove a window later? I was thinking of tacky butyl tape (squidgy and
compressible) with lots of screws.


The more time & work you put into the edges, both the seating to the
new port and the channel around the inside, the stronger & tighter it
will be. I've seen this kind of thing done well on a few boats...
seen a botched "quickie" job dozens of times (including on a boat we
were considering buying until we got a close look at this and many
other owner customized bits).

Well, the boat's a bit tatty and isn't really worth the effort to bring it
to anything approaching a concours finish. Neat, waterproof, and
maintainable are the main aims with the windows.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

felton wrote:

I think the new ones look better. On my previous boat, a C&C 33-II,
the portlights were long and "rakish" and were attached to the outside
of the cabin top. Because there was a bit of curve to the side of the
cabin top, the portlights were required to stay in place with a bit of
bend, which they did not want to do. The previous owner had replaced
them once and there were a number of small screws which attempted to
hold the portlights in place, in addition to a sealant and tape and
they still leaked. Actually if you read the C&C mail list, leaking
portlights are a huge topic of conversation. I think anytime you get
too long a portlight with no frame, you may be asking for trouble,
especially if there is any bend required. If your mounting surface is
fair and flat, you are in much better shape.

There is a slight curve on mine, but it's pretty-slab-sided. If there's any
sort of compound curve, it's *very* slight. I'll be having a close look at
this to make sure. I see a lot of boats with the acrylic on the outside,
fixings every 2" or so, and a run of seal under the line of fixings - I'm
leaning towards that methof at present.


Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows. My current portlights, which are frameless, are installed
with GE Silpruf, which seems to work well. These portlights are
installed into a routed groove around the opening so that the
plexiglass sits into the groove, just flush with the cabintop, and
has a bead of Silpruf around both the inside and the outside. There
are 4 small screws which are angled into the top and bottom which
basically hold the portlights in place while the Silpruf cures. These
screws don't penetrate the plexiglass, they just hold the portlights
at the edge. These portlights don't leak.

Any issues with removal? Is there likely to be a real need to remove the
windows at some point in the future?


Good luck. I like the design, but I would be careful about doing too
much cutting for structural reasons.

No cutting. :-)



--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:47:30 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic.. some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain. Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants? What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

What sort of boat? Are the portlights in frames or frameless?

I am not sure what sort of product he is talking about. Was it Plexus
by any chance? From my days on the C&C list, where folks are quite
experienced in *attempting* to install leak resistant portlights,
Plexus was sometimes mentioned. If memory serves, that might be a two
part product that is a lot more like a glue. Based on my experience,
which is hardly exhaustive, I think the key to leak-free portlights is
a good design in the first place, together with a forgiving and easily
removed/replaced sealant. My C&C had a VERY poor portlight design.
It was an unframed, thin, long piece of *something* (dark lexan,
acrylic, plexiglass) that came to a sharply pointed taper at the
forward end and was expected to cling to the outside of a curved cabin
top. The hot sun would heat things up and things would try to move a
bit against the screws and everything would start to break down and
leak. I don't think that the Plexus would have been a solution for
me, but I never tried it. I try never to do anything that won't let
me remove or replace in the future.

On my current boat, the cabin portlights are also unframed, but are
divided into two smaller portlights, each of which is set into the
routed, recessed openings. The instructions for replacing the
portlights, or rebedding them, is to run a bead of white GE Silpruf
around the inside edge of the portlight opening. Then carefully set
the portlights in place against this sealant/adhesive. There are 4
very small screws, two top and two bottom that are then screwed in
around the top and bottom edges of the portlights to hold them in
place. A larger bead of black GE Silpruf is then applied around the
outside edge of the portlights and faired after it has set up enough
to be worked without still being too "gooey". They won't leak when
designed and bedded this way. (The white inner bead is just for
aesthetics so as not to have black Silpruf all over the white gelcoat
inside the boat).

I like the GE Silpruf product. It is often used to install those
glass panel windows on commercial buildings. Sabre recommends that
for their portlights, which is what I used. I subsequently learned
from my parts buddy at Valiant that they use a lot of it as well. It
is pretty inexpensive. About $6 for one of those caulk gun size
tubes. It doesn't harden and crack, which is where the leaks first
develop. The previous owner of my boat had apparently used Boat Life
and it was a hard, cracked mess.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:09:29 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

felton wrote:

I think the new ones look better. On my previous boat, a C&C 33-II,
the portlights were long and "rakish" and were attached to the outside
of the cabin top. Because there was a bit of curve to the side of the
cabin top, the portlights were required to stay in place with a bit of
bend, which they did not want to do. The previous owner had replaced
them once and there were a number of small screws which attempted to
hold the portlights in place, in addition to a sealant and tape and
they still leaked. Actually if you read the C&C mail list, leaking
portlights are a huge topic of conversation. I think anytime you get
too long a portlight with no frame, you may be asking for trouble,
especially if there is any bend required. If your mounting surface is
fair and flat, you are in much better shape.

There is a slight curve on mine, but it's pretty-slab-sided. If there's any
sort of compound curve, it's *very* slight. I'll be having a close look at
this to make sure. I see a lot of boats with the acrylic on the outside,
fixings every 2" or so, and a run of seal under the line of fixings - I'm
leaning towards that methof at present.

Check and see how much bend. Bend is not your friend, as that lexan
(or whatever you use) won't want to stay bent. The bigger or longer
the piece, the bigger the issue. I agree that you see where folks
have drilled and installed exterior screws through the portlight into
the cabin top (slightly larger holes in the lexan to allow for
movement). That just strikes me as a bad design. Lots of holes, but
perhaps unavoidable.



Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows. My current portlights, which are frameless, are installed
with GE Silpruf, which seems to work well. These portlights are
installed into a routed groove around the opening so that the
plexiglass sits into the groove, just flush with the cabintop, and
has a bead of Silpruf around both the inside and the outside. There
are 4 small screws which are angled into the top and bottom which
basically hold the portlights in place while the Silpruf cures. These
screws don't penetrate the plexiglass, they just hold the portlights
at the edge. These portlights don't leak.

Any issues with removal? Is there likely to be a real need to remove the
windows at some point in the future?

Not if you are selling the boat before the things start leaking in the
future, but otherwise, yes Given time, everyhting needs to be
rebedded periodically, or the portlight material will become crazed,
brittle or otherwise in need of replacement. You don't want to tear
up your cabintop getting them out.


Good luck. I like the design, but I would be careful about doing too
much cutting for structural reasons.

No cutting. :-)

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:04:02 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

DSK wrote:

Yes but it would look better without those in any case. A better
comparison would be with (harder to draw in, I know)

(With?) I've added a photo showing the original window shape, but with the
stanchions and lifelines removed.


I'd be very afraid of weakening the structure... DON'T cut that
beam... in fact don't cut within 3 or 4 inches of it. The fiberglass
flange where it joins the coach roof molding is sure to be a
structural element. You can add fiberglass channels around the edge
of the new port opening for stiffness, but it'd be a major
engineering job to design & build a new mast step support.

I'm not planning to cut the opening at all. The new shape is basically a
go-faster stripe.


The plus side of bigger windows is more light inside (the tint looks
cool, but don't overdo it). The downside is a weaker coach roof.

The reason for going for a tint is to disguise the outline of the aperture
underneath - I may darken the GRP around the aperture if it shows through
the tint. It could do with some more light inside, and I'm looking into the
possibility of putting a Houdini-type hatch on the cabin roof forward of the
mast. It has a little 'ventilight' thing there at the moment. I think some
MkI Foxcubs (the Super model, perhaps) were fitted with a Houdini in this
location, so I think it will be okay structurally.


I'd put the acrylic on the outside, beveled, onto a mated surface
around the edge of the port, and use small screws only to hold it in
place while the 5200 dries.

Is that an adhesive sealant? If so, would there be problems with trying to
remove a window later? I was thinking of tacky butyl tape (squidgy and
compressible) with lots of screws.

That is how the cabintop portlights were installed on my last boat.
They leaked, but mostly from the forward end where the portlights came
to a fairly sharp point and where the curve of the cabintop was most
pronounced. The portlight kept wanting to "straighten out" away from
the cabintop and at the same time there was not enough lexan there for
a screw. If your setup wouldn't create as much stress, it might work.



The more time & work you put into the edges, both the seating to the
new port and the channel around the inside, the stronger & tighter it
will be. I've seen this kind of thing done well on a few boats...
seen a botched "quickie" job dozens of times (including on a boat we
were considering buying until we got a close look at this and many
other owner customized bits).

Well, the boat's a bit tatty and isn't really worth the effort to bring it
to anything approaching a concours finish. Neat, waterproof, and
maintainable are the main aims with the windows.

Thanks... it's the windows that leak. I don't think we
usually heal over far enough to worry. Well, not usually.
It's a Yamaha 30. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic..
some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain.

You should find out for sure what it is. A professional would not be
concerned with keeping a secret about what materials he used on a
customer's boat. The best professionals I've worked with would go out of
their way to make sure the customer knows what materials are used and
how to best care for them.

... Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants?

There is such a wide variety, it's impossible to say. For example, 5200
is a butyl isocyanate, so it's not exactly healthy stuff to eat or
inhale. But it's not in the same class as Agent Orange or enriched
plutonium...

What you want is the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for the stuff
being used. They are easily googled: here is the one for 5200

http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/p...00%20White.pdf

... What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

Your boat *leaks*??? Get out!!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

It's a Yamaha 30. I'm not sure what the windows are
made of, but I think we're going to replace them anyway.
They're frameless... not port lights... the cabin windows.

I believe the guy mentioned something about a 2-part
mix that he uses.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:47:30 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic..
some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain. Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants? What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

What sort of boat? Are the portlights in frames or frameless?

I am not sure what sort of product he is talking about. Was it Plexus
by any chance? From my days on the C&C list, where folks are quite
experienced in *attempting* to install leak resistant portlights,
Plexus was sometimes mentioned. If memory serves, that might be a two
part product that is a lot more like a glue. Based on my experience,
which is hardly exhaustive, I think the key to leak-free portlights is
a good design in the first place, together with a forgiving and easily
removed/replaced sealant. My C&C had a VERY poor portlight design.
It was an unframed, thin, long piece of *something* (dark lexan,
acrylic, plexiglass) that came to a sharply pointed taper at the
forward end and was expected to cling to the outside of a curved cabin
top. The hot sun would heat things up and things would try to move a
bit against the screws and everything would start to break down and
leak. I don't think that the Plexus would have been a solution for
me, but I never tried it. I try never to do anything that won't let
me remove or replace in the future.

On my current boat, the cabin portlights are also unframed, but are
divided into two smaller portlights, each of which is set into the
routed, recessed openings. The instructions for replacing the
portlights, or rebedding them, is to run a bead of white GE Silpruf
around the inside edge of the portlight opening. Then carefully set
the portlights in place against this sealant/adhesive. There are 4
very small screws, two top and two bottom that are then screwed in
around the top and bottom edges of the portlights to hold them in
place. A larger bead of black GE Silpruf is then applied around the
outside edge of the portlights and faired after it has set up enough
to be worked without still being too "gooey". They won't leak when
designed and bedded this way. (The white inner bead is just for
aesthetics so as not to have black Silpruf all over the white gelcoat
inside the boat).

I like the GE Silpruf product. It is often used to install those
glass panel windows on commercial buildings. Sabre recommends that
for their portlights, which is what I used. I subsequently learned
from my parts buddy at Valiant that they use a lot of it as well. It
is pretty inexpensive. About $6 for one of those caulk gun size
tubes. It doesn't harden and crack, which is where the leaks first
develop. The previous owner of my boat had apparently used Boat Life
and it was a hard, cracked mess.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:07:24 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

It's a Yamaha 30. I'm not sure what the windows are
made of, but I think we're going to replace them anyway.
They're frameless... not port lights... the cabin windows.

I believe the guy mentioned something about a 2-part
mix that he uses.

That sounds like trouble to me. It does sound like he is talking
about Plexus. If (when) you need to remove/replace/rebed you are going
to tear up your cabin top getting those glued in windows out of there.
Just my opinion. Do your portlights fit into a recessed opening or do
they attach to the outside of the cabin top? The real problem with
large, frameless portlights is that things move and expand in
different amounts and different directions. Each one of my portlights
(two per side for the main cabin) are probably 3' long, from memory.
They are recessed and sit in silicole bedding on both sides. No
mechanical or structural stresses to cause leaks.

Right...not sure what I was thinking. I believe they
attach to the outside and are held in with screws.

I'm going to get more info about what he's thinking
of doing. Thanks for the heads up about the removal
issue.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"felton" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:07:24 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

It's a Yamaha 30. I'm not sure what the windows are
made of, but I think we're going to replace them anyway.
They're frameless... not port lights... the cabin windows.

I believe the guy mentioned something about a 2-part
mix that he uses.

That sounds like trouble to me. It does sound like he is talking
about Plexus. If (when) you need to remove/replace/rebed you are going
to tear up your cabin top getting those glued in windows out of there.
Just my opinion. Do your portlights fit into a recessed opening or do
they attach to the outside of the cabin top? The real problem with
large, frameless portlights is that things move and expand in
different amounts and different directions. Each one of my portlights
(two per side for the main cabin) are probably 3' long, from memory.
They are recessed and sit in silicole bedding on both sides. No
mechanical or structural stresses to cause leaks.

"Wally" wrote in message ...
The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ



The new design looks good. When you cut your new windows use lexan
not acrylic.

When you put your new windows on oversize them slightly and do like
the car mfg's do and paint the back of the lexan black around the
edges to cover the sealant.

Joe
MSV RedCloud