Dave wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said:


Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto).


Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent
Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies
as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented.


Indeed, Dave, I believe you are correct. I think Dow originally developed the stuff
for Monsanto (which it then owned, probably still does) to use in the course of normal
agriculture. I use the term "normal" very loosely here. Dow then licensed its' production
to other companies, I think a bunch was made up here in Canada by CIL, then owned by ICE.

Cheers
Marty

DSK wrote in message t...
"Capt.American" wrote...
Tell me about the boat and crew you
knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo.

Shucks, any boat I've raced... takes only a couple of afternoons.



Perhaps a sunfish. But I doubt it. I've sailed several boat for
years and never did feel that I could not learn more.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "know like the back of your
hand."

Were you would by confident to command the vessel in a war zone and by
responsable for the lives of your crew.



Usually after an hour or so I feel that I can sail the boat at
least 90% as well as anybody. Of course that hour is work (but is also
fun). For example, last time I went out for "practice" with a local PHRF
racer they had the idea that just sailing up and down the river,
occasionally with the spinnaker up, was "practice." I said, let's do
this for real. We worked out way upwind, with eyes rigorously on compass
& water & wind, working out the best ways to tack and then throwing some
quick tacks at the crew. Then we did about eight or ten spinnaker
hoists, working on the fastest ways to get it set & pulling. It turned
out we didn't have time to work on douses (which IMHO is actually more
important in most races). When we got back, the owner thanked me
sincerely and the rest of the crew said they felt whipped.


.... Always a way to
get just a little more out of her.

If you're a rock star sailmaker with a million bucks, yeah you can
squeeze 0.001 knot more out of anything. But most of the time people
cannot apply the basics consistently, that is where the gains are made
and that is one thing I am good at (not to brag, it's the classic
engineer's methodical approach that pays off... drives most people up
the wall).


I would of never guessed.



However, to know absolutely every nuance of how the boat sails under
every possible condition takes more time, as well as knowing all the
wiring and all the plumbing and every inch of the structure etc etc.

I should warn you that Elmo Zumwalt Junior died of cancer due to his
exposure to Agent Orange, which his father ordered sprayed all over the
PBR operating zones.


Hind site is always 20/20. Im sure Elmo Sr was dupped by the dupont
clan as others were at the time.

Well, he had a bit to say about the politics of running that war, in
fact that's how he ended up as CNO. He was a candidate, and invited to a
meeting with several other really top brass, and they discussed how the
Navy could contribute to winning the war. He came away shocked at the
lack of strategic insight at the top. But he took the job.

As for Agent Orange, he explained that quite clearly... the VC, NLF, and
NVA used the rivers for shipping weapons; the Navy had a way to stop
them. But it was costly because the rivers with dense jungle canopy were
perfect spots for ambush. Take away the lush jungle greenery, presto no
more ambushes. He said that even knowing what it cost him personally, he
would do the same thing again in the same circumstances. It is rather
cold logic.


Sounds like he gave all for his troops.





It sure would be nice to have the chance to elect a President that
was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

Agreed, but I don't see it happening in the near future. Getting into
politics is a big money game. Clinton was the poorest President since
Truman. Swarzenegger rose from pretty humble beginnings. John Edwards
did too but got where he is as an ambulance chasing malpractice
attorney. He has a lot of powerful enemies and will be a major barrier
to a successful administration if he stays involved, although he sure
seems to be a champion vote-getter & rabble-rouser.

2 words- Campain reform




... Thats what worries me. If he become president and we
have to continue a fierce fight against terrorist and terrorist
supporting states will he be able to hang in there to the bitter end.
Regardless of the cost. We have all seen what low down dirty sticking
MF terrorist are and there willingness to kill and we must have a
leader that is willing to kill them before they kill us. Vietnam had
some ruthless **** going on but it is nothing on the scale of
ruthlessness that ossama is willing to sink to. We need to stomp and
stomp hard. No more sucker punches needed for me to get the message,
**** I got the message when the USS Cole was attacked. I hate to say
it but I think this war has just begun.

Where have you been? This war has been going on since the 1970s if not
the 1940s. And the current administration is doing some stomping, but
not in a constructive way. I agree that proven enemies should be taken
out ASAP, but the facts are that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are
supporting more terrorist organizations that Afghanistan (a very very
poor country) and Iraq. They are targets of convenience, a chance for
the military-industrial complex to make lots of money.

If you want to end the war on terrorism, we need to do two things... 1-
get back on track for a realistic peace between Israel and the
Palestinians and 2- root out the money trail and go after the deep
pockets, whoever they are. Bush & Cheney Inc is messing up on both
fronts, big time. By backing Israel to the hilt, no matter what, we
become bigger targets for increasing numbers of fanatics; and by
allowing the friends of rich & powerful oil businessmen to support
terrorist groups, we are financing our worst enemies through our energy
dependency and sending the message that we do not have either the brains
nor the willpower to find & kill them.

Killing the wrong people, such as 10,000+ Iraqi civilians (every one a
potential ally), will only make the situation worse.

The USS Cole was bad enough, but look up the USS Stark and the USS
Vincennes incidents.

I'm well aware of both incidents.
And both were handled like police investigations and under the table.

That again raises my doubts that John Kerry can man the helm in these
trouble waters.

John Kerry who suggested that the fight against terror should be
''primarily an intelligence-gathering, law enforcement operation.''
This approach is an exercise in futility and a proven failure. A war
requires a full-fledged military response if you're going to be
serious about national security and rooting out terrorism.


Do you think Kerry will stick it out, or will he side with the Bagdad
Janes of the world and walk down that path he walked before?.

I think that almost anybody, with the possible exception of Jerry
Falwell, would make a better President than George Bush Jr. I did not
think much of his father, but Bush Sr was twice the President and five
times the man his son is. Kerry would not be my first choice but he
can't help but be an imporvement. The question is, given Bush & Cheney's
massive advertising budget, can they fool (or just distract) enough of
the people who will actually go out & vote?


Advertising today is less of an effective tool in politics thanks to
the internet. Massive bugets do not always win elections. People are
researching the facts.

The most important issue IMO is national security. American needs to
prevent the next 9/11. And the only way we will win is to kill them
first. They have made that quite clear.

Quote from AlQuieda Tape found in Madrid " You love life-We love
Death"

Lets keep what we love, and give them what they love.

All ya need is Love......Da..da.... da da du.

Capt. American

Regards
Doug King

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Wow, a war hero....

Jonathan,

To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free
is down right low.

My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in
nam.
In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about
some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he
never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give
him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet
his cancer stymied him.

He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited
for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful.

If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is
funny.

Capt. American





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said:

Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow
Chemicals, (Monsanto).

Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent
Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of
companies
as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented.

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

How about you? You're a stupid, ignorant asshole. Is that better?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Wow, a war hero....

Jonathan,

To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free
is down right low.

My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in
nam.
In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about
some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he
never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give
him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet
his cancer stymied him.

He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited
for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful.

If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is
funny.

Capt. American





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter
said:

Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by
Dow
Chemicals, (Monsanto).

Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The
Agent
Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of
companies
as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm
represented.

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/agentorangefs.htm

Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other
diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. I work with 2
nurses who have done their stints at the local VA hospital...the evidence,
they say, is overwhelming, when you read the studies and the charts of those
afflicted. I [personally had a friend who suffered with Hoskins disease for
years before he succumbed...his tour of duty included being on the boats
that went down the rivers spraying the stuff on either side to defoliate
camouflage situations...he suffered miserably, but kept fighting it until he
couldn't anymore. He died last year at the age of 60. He was a vital man,
with no genetic history of any type of cancer in his family. I'm sure there
were times when he must have thought the cancer raging through his system
was much worse than the war he helped fight in Nam.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

At the VA hospital here (next to Duke), they have been a learning a lot
of depressing things about Gulf War Syndrome. Apparently it's the result
of taking the poison gas pre-antidote which the Army (in it's wisdom)
insisted everybody take.

DSK


katysails wrote:

http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/agentorangefs.htm

Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other
diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. I work with 2
nurses who have done their stints at the local VA hospital...the evidence,
they say, is overwhelming, when you read the studies and the charts of those
afflicted. I [personally had a friend who suffered with Hoskins disease for
years before he succumbed...his tour of duty included being on the boats
that went down the rivers spraying the stuff on either side to defoliate
camouflage situations...he suffered miserably, but kept fighting it until he
couldn't anymore. He died last year at the age of 60. He was a vital man,
with no genetic history of any type of cancer in his family. I'm sure there
were times when he must have thought the cancer raging through his system
was much worse than the war he helped fight in Nam.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
How about me? I'm a stupid, ignorant asshole. Is that better?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Somewhat gayz.

CA





"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Wow, a war hero....

Jonathan,

To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free
is down right low.

My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in
nam.
In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about
some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he
never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give
him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet
his cancer stymied him.

He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited
for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful.

If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is
funny.

Capt. American





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter
said:

Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by
Dow
Chemicals, (Monsanto).

Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The
Agent
Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of
companies
as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm
represented.

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

Dave wrote:
How foolish to administer it before going up against a foe that had used
poison gas against enemy soldiers in the past.

When it causes crippling neurologic damage, yes.

The Army already had (still has) effective anti-gas measures that do not
have these side effects. So why administer an untested medication?

1- to test it
2- because "the right people" stand to make a profit selling this
medication to the Army
3- all the above.

Now, you cannot possibly grasp that the gov't (other than the Clintons)
occasionally does bad things, so you will dismiss this as just more
traitorous mud-slinging. Unfortunately it's the truth. Water does not
run up hill, even if Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney both were to
proclaim that it does.

DSK

I agree. You are.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
How about me? I'm a stupid, ignorant asshole. Is that better?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Somewhat gayz.

CA





"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Wow, a war hero....

Jonathan,

To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free
is down right low.

My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in
nam.
In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about
some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he
never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give
him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet
his cancer stymied him.

He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited
for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful.

If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is
funny.

Capt. American





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter

said:

Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured
by
Dow
Chemicals, (Monsanto).

Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The
Agent
Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of
companies
as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm
represented.

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

It's a disgrace that a US President would act like this. Just like it was
a disgrace when Clinton lied about "having sex with that woman." I guess
they should both be impeached. Clinton for lying about sex, and Bush
for lying about the reason for going to war.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"OzOne" wrote in message
...
Did you hear the one about the President...
By Paul Colgan and wires
March 26, 2004

US President George W. Bush made a joke about weapons of mass
destruction not being found in Iraq at a late-night dinner for Amerian
journalists yesterday.

Mr Bush poked fun at himself and other members of his administration
at the annual White House dinner for Radio and Television
correspondents in Washington.

Mr Bush used a slide show of White House photographs to entertain his
dinner audience. Here, he said, he was pictured using trading cards to
help him remember the names of world leaders / AFP Audio: Bush tries
comedy

In one, he showed a picture of him down on all fours rummaging under a
desk in the Oval Office, saying "Those weapons of mass destruction
have got to be somewhere."

It was quickly followed by another similar picture. "Nope, no weapons
over there," he said.

In his four years on the national and international stage, Mr Bush has
often been ridiculed for his tendency to muddle sentences and confuse
words - and even invent new ones.

He made this tendency the butt of another of his jokes, saying:
"Fortunately my verbal phonation and electrocution have improved."

There was a shot of Vice President Dick Cheney, a frequent butt of
gentle Bush ribbing, holding his fingers a few inches apart. Mr Bush
said: "Whenever you ask him a question, he replies: 'Let's see what my
little friend says'."

And there was Mr Bush again, in an odd contortion in front of his
national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice.

He said he was trying to explain to her the foreign policy of
Democratic challenger John Kerry.

His slide show segued into a sombre ending, showing a group of special
forces troops in Afghanistan at the site where they buried a piece of
the fallen World Trade Centre in commemoration of the dead from
September 11.

About 1500 guests attended the dinner.

Asked at a news conference if the weapons issue was an appropriate
matter for jokes, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declined to
comment, saying he had not been at the dinner.

The Bush administration launched a war a year ago against Iraq with
its prime justification being its accusation that Iraq possessed
weapons of mass destruction. Searches since the fall of former
dictator Saddam Hussein so far have not turned up such arms.

The chief US inspector, David Kay, said in January he thought it was
unlikely any would be found.
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_...55E401,00.html


Funny man that George...not!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.