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30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
As discussed in other subject strings, I'm looking at 30 to 35-foot used boats such as Cals, O'Days, Catalinas, etc. My intended use would be for day sailing and sailing offshore near the coast in the Texas Gulf. As mentioned, offshore sailing would probably require four or five days in our area because of the distances involved. Although I know it all depends on the person, the crew, the circumstances, the boat, etc., have there been any studies or surveys that might provide some idea of how many days of sailing per year an owner of such a boat typically gets, particularly after the first year? Again, it's obvious that it all depends, on the person, the individual circumstances, his work load, etc., and that there can be no generalizations. (No need to tell me this. - It's pretty self-evident.) Still, there may have been some polls or surveys, or at least, some general experience and consensus regarding the question. The reason for asking is that, though I'm anxious to get out to the blue water, I'm wondering whether I would be the exception to what seems to be the general rule in this area, in which the boats seem to sit in their slips for 99.9 percent of the time. For example, one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. - Any estimates, guesses? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
jim, you are trying to make a perfect decision. That is a recipe for failure.
go buy a boat for 1/10th what you expect to pay now, sail it for two years than buy the boat you want *then*, figuring you got two years sailing for little jing. otherwise, five years from now you will still be trying to make the perfect decision. As discussed in other subject strings, I'm looking at 30 to 35-foot used boats such as Cals, O'Days, Catalinas, etc. My intended use would be for day sailing and sailing offshore near the coast in the Texas Gulf. As mentioned, offshore sailing would probably require four or five days in our area because of the distances involved. Although I know it all depends on the person, the crew, the circumstances, the boat, etc., have there been any studies or surveys that might provide some idea of how many days of sailing per year an owner of such a boat typically gets, particularly after the first year? Again, it's obvious that it all depends, on the person, the individual circumstances, his work load, etc., and that there can be no generalizations. (No need to tell me this. - It's pretty self-evident.) Still, there may have been some polls or surveys, or at least, some general experience and consensus regarding the question. The reason for asking is that, though I'm anxious to get out to the blue water, I'm wondering whether I would be the exception to what seems to be the general rule in this area, in which the boats seem to sit in their slips for 99.9 percent of the time. For example, one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. - Any estimates, guesses? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
It has little to do with the boat size. Depends more on the individual and
his financial state. Fer instance, I bought a relatively cheap boat so therefore I don't need to work as much ( I'm self employed) and have more time to sail (and work on the boat). It seems as though a majority of the 'big' boats tied up at marinas are owned by 9-5ers, who , though making a decent salary, tend to buy the most boat they can afford and then spend their time working to pay for it, squeezing in a weekend or two here and there. This is, of course a generalization. The old saying, ''the bigger the boat the less it's sailed'', does seem to hold some water. SV "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... As discussed in other subject strings, I'm looking at 30 to 35-foot used boats such as Cals, O'Days, Catalinas, etc. My intended use would be for day sailing and sailing offshore near the coast in the Texas Gulf. As mentioned, offshore sailing would probably require four or five days in our area because of the distances involved. Although I know it all depends on the person, the crew, the circumstances, the boat, etc., have there been any studies or surveys that might provide some idea of how many days of sailing per year an owner of such a boat typically gets, particularly after the first year? Again, it's obvious that it all depends, on the person, the individual circumstances, his work load, etc., and that there can be no generalizations. (No need to tell me this. - It's pretty self-evident.) Still, there may have been some polls or surveys, or at least, some general experience and consensus regarding the question. The reason for asking is that, though I'm anxious to get out to the blue water, I'm wondering whether I would be the exception to what seems to be the general rule in this area, in which the boats seem to sit in their slips for 99.9 percent of the time. For example, one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. - Any estimates, guesses? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke=20
with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the=20 boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest = brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir = Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat = was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well = maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop = looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a = hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting = a new roof on your house. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as = you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope = that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you = did. =20 --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:02:33 -0500, "katysails"
wrote this crap: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your house. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. Hey New Guy! Don't listen to some dumbass who can't set word-wrap. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Yeah, instead listen to an idiot guy with tits.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:02:33 -0500, "katysails" wrote this crap: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your house. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. Hey New Guy! Don't listen to some dumbass who can't set word-wrap. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ...
It has little to do with the boat size. I have to disagree slightly with this statement. How much a boat gets USED may be different than how much a boat gets SAILED. All sailboats get SAILED, some, but under the right circumstances, the boats get USED much more. Used for what? For a weekend retreat, for a place to entertain friends, for a place to be alone to read a good book, etc etc etc. In this case the size of the boat is important. If you boat a 20' boat, you probably would not use it as a weekend home. A boat in the 30' plus range could and probably would be used for this purpose. I have seen that the owner who lives far away from his boat uses it more. Here is what I mean. If you live 15 minutes away from your boat you might go to it a few times a year and day sail, but you probably will not find it worth the effort to pack up clothes, food, etc to stay a weekend, not when your bed is just a 15 minute drive away. But if the boat is an hour or two or three away from your home you may get into a routine of packing up every friday and living on the boat for the weekend. This way the boat gets used a great deal. How much you actually go sailing may vary, however. I've known people that lived 5 hours away from their boats and used it 3 out of 4 weekends every month. Every 4th weekend they would stay home to get things done around their home, or take care of social obligations there. That is my 2 cents. Lonny Depends more on the individual and his financial state. Fer instance, I bought a relatively cheap boat so therefore I don't need to work as much ( I'm self employed) and have more time to sail (and work on the boat). It seems as though a majority of the 'big' boats tied up at marinas are owned by 9-5ers, who , though making a decent salary, tend to buy the most boat they can afford and then spend their time working to pay for it, squeezing in a weekend or two here and there. This is, of course a generalization. The old saying, ''the bigger the boat the less it's sailed'', does seem to hold some water. SV "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... As discussed in other subject strings, I'm looking at 30 to 35-foot used boats such as Cals, O'Days, Catalinas, etc. My intended use would be for day sailing and sailing offshore near the coast in the Texas Gulf. As mentioned, offshore sailing would probably require four or five days in our area because of the distances involved. Although I know it all depends on the person, the crew, the circumstances, the boat, etc., have there been any studies or surveys that might provide some idea of how many days of sailing per year an owner of such a boat typically gets, particularly after the first year? Again, it's obvious that it all depends, on the person, the individual circumstances, his work load, etc., and that there can be no generalizations. (No need to tell me this. - It's pretty self-evident.) Still, there may have been some polls or surveys, or at least, some general experience and consensus regarding the question. The reason for asking is that, though I'm anxious to get out to the blue water, I'm wondering whether I would be the exception to what seems to be the general rule in this area, in which the boats seem to sit in their slips for 99.9 percent of the time. For example, one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. - Any estimates, guesses? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
This old guy wrote:
katysails wrote: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. Hey old guy. - Do you know the meaning of the term: "for example"? My observation that the boats in our area are seldom taken sailed was based on discussions with various boat owners and from observations of the small number of boats that are sailing in the bay here, even on weekends and in good weather, compared with the thousands of boats sitting in their slips. The reference to the discussion with this particular broker was intended only as an example of what I was talking about. The point is that if nearly all owners of such boats find that they don't continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought them, and if, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently, perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS, when looking at boats. Like, how often have you had your boat out in the last six months old guy? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
That is my 2 cents.
Lonny Good points, all. As we've move up in boat size, we've found it more reasonable to make time for those extra overnight and weekend trips. Even with my wife pregnant, we have some nice little trips planned. With a smaller, less comfortable boat, it would be less of an option. With the 36 footer I expect we'll be aboard much more than than the 3 days per week we average now. I do tend to agree that REALLY big boats, over 40 feet and more, will get used less, since more people are generally required to sail them. RB RB |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Hey old guy. - Do you know the meaning of the term: "for example"?
Jim, there's no reason to attach an adversarial element to every discussion. He was just making some points....most quite valid. RB |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'?
SV "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... This old guy wrote: katysails wrote: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. Hey old guy. - Do you know the meaning of the term: "for example"? My observation that the boats in our area are seldom taken sailed was based on discussions with various boat owners and from observations of the small number of boats that are sailing in the bay here, even on weekends and in good weather, compared with the thousands of boats sitting in their slips. The reference to the discussion with this particular broker was intended only as an example of what I was talking about. The point is that if nearly all owners of such boats find that they don't continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought them, and if, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently, perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS, when looking at boats. Like, how often have you had your boat out in the last six months old guy? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Hey dufus, the post was from Katy.
SV "Bobsprit" wrote He was just making some points.... RB |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Well yes, a small daysailor generally gets sailed more 'days' than a bigger
boat. Not as many miles, or as much time spent aboard. But he was asking about 30-35 ' ers. I live 2 hours from my slip. I don't like driving 4 hours for a day sail. When I do go sailing I like to stay out for 2 days. There are more than a few at my marina who spend the weekend on their boats, sleeping in the slip and daysailing. I don't know why someone wants a 36' sailboat to day sail and hang at the marina. SV "Lonny" wrote in message om... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... It has little to do with the boat size. I have to disagree slightly with this statement. How much a boat gets USED may be different than how much a boat gets SAILED. All sailboats get SAILED, some, but under the right circumstances, the boats get USED much more. Used for what? For a weekend retreat, for a place to entertain friends, for a place to be alone to read a good book, etc etc etc. In this case the size of the boat is important. If you boat a 20' boat, you probably would not use it as a weekend home. A boat in the 30' plus range could and probably would be used for this purpose. I have seen that the owner who lives far away from his boat uses it more. Here is what I mean. If you live 15 minutes away from your boat you might go to it a few times a year and day sail, but you probably will not find it worth the effort to pack up clothes, food, etc to stay a weekend, not when your bed is just a 15 minute drive away. But if the boat is an hour or two or three away from your home you may get into a routine of packing up every friday and living on the boat for the weekend. This way the boat gets used a great deal. How much you actually go sailing may vary, however. I've known people that lived 5 hours away from their boats and used it 3 out of 4 weekends every month. Every 4th weekend they would stay home to get things done around their home, or take care of social obligations there. That is my 2 cents. Lonny Depends more on the individual and his financial state. Fer instance, I bought a relatively cheap boat so therefore I don't need to work as much ( I'm self employed) and have more time to sail (and work on the boat). It seems as though a majority of the 'big' boats tied up at marinas are owned by 9-5ers, who , though making a decent salary, tend to buy the most boat they can afford and then spend their time working to pay for it, squeezing in a weekend or two here and there. This is, of course a generalization. The old saying, ''the bigger the boat the less it's sailed'', does seem to hold some water. SV "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... As discussed in other subject strings, I'm looking at 30 to 35-foot used boats such as Cals, O'Days, Catalinas, etc. My intended use would be for day sailing and sailing offshore near the coast in the Texas Gulf. As mentioned, offshore sailing would probably require four or five days in our area because of the distances involved. Although I know it all depends on the person, the crew, the circumstances, the boat, etc., have there been any studies or surveys that might provide some idea of how many days of sailing per year an owner of such a boat typically gets, particularly after the first year? Again, it's obvious that it all depends, on the person, the individual circumstances, his work load, etc., and that there can be no generalizations. (No need to tell me this. - It's pretty self-evident.) Still, there may have been some polls or surveys, or at least, some general experience and consensus regarding the question. The reason for asking is that, though I'm anxious to get out to the blue water, I'm wondering whether I would be the exception to what seems to be the general rule in this area, in which the boats seem to sit in their slips for 99.9 percent of the time. For example, one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. - Any estimates, guesses? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
The buzi wrote:Hey New Guy! Don't listen to some dumbass who can't set =
word-wrap. Hey, buzi! Get a life! =20 --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
New guy said:=20
Like, how often have you had your boat out in the last six months old=20 guy? Seeing as how I now presently live in West Michigan, those figures would = have to be all September...in September we sailed quite a lot....we live = 45 minutes from our boat nad in season spend all our recreational hours = there. When we move to warmer climes, the use of our boat will increase = dramatically...3 summers ago I didn't work and spent the whole summer = out on the boat....in other years we have stayed on the boat and come = back to work making long extended weekends....the places where we have = kept our boats had very few that were not used every weekend... --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'?
Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't = think he meant it as a gender specific term.... --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Oh, OK mister.
SV "katysails" wrote in message ... Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'? Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't think he meant it as a gender specific term.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
katysails wrote: Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'? Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't think he meant it as a gender specific term.... I would probably be classified as an "old guy" also, since I'm nearing retirement. Presumably, I will have more free time to spend on a boat in the next few years, but somewhat less money. Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive subject that most sailors don't want to talk about? Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
katysails wrote: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. In addition to speaking with the brokers, I'm getting some helpful inputs from the charter company that I may leave the boat with. - They want to be assured that the boat is reliable, in good working order, safe, and "saleable" to their clients. My thought is that if in their experience no one would want to charter a particular boat, the boat might have resale problems. I would intend to get a survey of both the boat and the engine, and I'll pay more attention to the survey results than the brokers. It's interesting, however, that most of the brokers in this area have not been high-pressure and in fact have been quite helpful. For example, one of them I spoke with last weekend concluded that he really didn't have anything with the characteristics and in the price range I was looking for (32 to 35 ft., etc., that would qualify for chartering, etc.). Before I left his office, I asked him what boats he would consider for the uses I anticipate. - Despite the fact that he wasn't going to make a sale, he spent a considerable amount of time discussing a number of different boats, their characteristics, marketing factors, various costs, resale values, financing etc. He then checked the dealers' web sites of valuations and recent sales of several boats, and gave me printouts of recent comparables. He also provided suggestions regarding negotiating, initial offers, etc., and suggestions on survey and repair facilities in the area, etc. Of course, I'm going to place more confidence in the survey report, and in all the helpful information (taken with a grain of salt) I'm getting from folks on this ng, than in what a broker tells me. Unfortunately, I haven't found much published information on the older boats I'm looking at. Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
"Jim Cate" wrote
Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive subject that most sailors don't want to talk about? No, quite frankly Jim, it's a stupid question. What does it matter how much time other people spend on their boat? Are you a sheep? A buddy who had a power boat used to keep track of what he spent and how much time he used it. He sold it after 2 years claiming, ''it just isn't worth it''. Sailing, for most of us, is a passion, not a business. What price do you put on that perfect sunny, breezy day out on the water, or a moonlit night sail, or that secluded quiet anchorage watching the sun set? Sensitive subject? Hell yes! Scott Vernon Plowville PA __/)__/)__ |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Jim Cate wrote in message ...
katysails wrote: Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'? Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't think he meant it as a gender specific term.... I would probably be classified as an "old guy" also, since I'm nearing retirement. Presumably, I will have more free time to spend on a boat in the next few years, but somewhat less money. Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive subject that most sailors don't want to talk about? Jim, When you ask a specific question concerning a boat in the 30 to 35 foot range, your in a size of boat that many can not utilize fully. It's to small to live on in gerenal, and its large enough were you might need another hand. So first the only people that will answer are the ones that have boats in the range, and you will get the kind of people answering that cant make up their minds on what the want or need. Like you they are always looking for a compromise. Instead of guessing and caring what other's do, pick out the boat you like and use it as mush as you like. Even if it that funny looking morphamac. I live aboard so I get alot of use out of my boat, Its my home, office, and getaway all rolled in one. I take it out less than most people due to the fact it takes much more effort to get underway. And I have a 13 foot LaBrisa that I take out at least every other day. Its easy to get underway, just take 2 min. to get ready. And I can anywere around Kemah, clearlake, taylor lake,anywhere in the bay systems and it carry 6 adults. And Its great to tow as a lifeboat and dink. It unsinkable. I rather have 2 boats that do a specific job well, than 1 boat that can't do either task well. Your an engineer right? Joe Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Scotty said: Oh, OK mister.
That's "Master" to you, bub. --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
New gut asked: notice that there weren't very many=20
responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and=20 therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive = subject that most sailors don't want to talk about? If I only got to sail my boat one time a year, I would still consider it = money well spent. The point that I was trying to make earlier is to = stop looking at the whole thing economically and start looking at it as = an esoteric experience. If you were buying a boat for business or to = offset taxes somehow, then sure, you've got to look at all that, but = when you start writing your equations trying to find break0even points = for your sailing pleasure, you sore of take the wonderfulness out of the = whole thing. --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
And by the way, new guy Jim, it's "Kate", not Cate...someone spelled =
your last name wrong! --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Jim,=20
One suggestion...subscribe to "Good Old Boat" magazine...it's the best = that will suit your needs. Oh, and remember, do NOT use a surveyor = suggested by a broker! Find one independently. --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:33:55 -0600, Jim Cate wrote:
katysails wrote: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. In addition to speaking with the brokers, I'm getting some helpful inputs from the charter company that I may leave the boat with. - They want to be assured that the boat is reliable, in good working order, safe, and "saleable" to their clients. My thought is that if in their experience no one would want to charter a particular boat, the boat might have resale problems. I would intend to get a survey of both the boat and the engine, and I'll pay more attention to the survey results than the brokers. It's interesting, however, that most of the brokers in this area have not been high-pressure and in fact have been quite helpful. For example, one of them I spoke with last weekend concluded that he really didn't have anything with the characteristics and in the price range I was looking for (32 to 35 ft., etc., that would qualify for chartering, etc.). Before I left his office, I asked him what boats he would consider for the uses I anticipate. - Despite the fact that he wasn't going to make a sale, he spent a considerable amount of time discussing a number of different boats, their characteristics, marketing factors, various costs, resale values, financing etc. He then checked the dealers' web sites of valuations and recent sales of several boats, and gave me printouts of recent comparables. He also provided suggestions regarding negotiating, initial offers, etc., and suggestions on survey and repair facilities in the area, etc. Of course, I'm going to place more confidence in the survey report, and in all the helpful information (taken with a grain of salt) I'm getting from folks on this ng, than in what a broker tells me. Unfortunately, I haven't found much published information on the older boats I'm looking at. Jim Have you taken a look at the compilations of reviews done by Practical Sailor? I find them informative and helpful. Buying the reports one at a time gets expensive, but there are at least two "Buying Guides" in which they reprinted many of their reviews. Additionally, if you go to sailnet.com and check the message boards, you may find more of the boat specific discussion you are looking for in the "Buying a Boat" forum. If you don't see what you are looking for there, ask about specific boats and you will likely get some good information (along with some bad information):) |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
In article , Jim Cate
wrote: katysails wrote: Scotty asked: hey 'new guy', why would you call Katy an 'old guy'? Scotty...it's pretty eveidnet that I am one of the old "guys"...I don't think he meant it as a gender specific term.... I would probably be classified as an "old guy" also, since I'm nearing retirement. Presumably, I will have more free time to spend on a boat in the next few years, but somewhat less money. Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive subject that most sailors don't want to talk about? No, it's a question that makes no sense. You equate more use with better value for money. OK, fine, this works for you, but I suspect most of us simply don't think of a boat like that and therefore the question is irrelevant. Peter Wiley |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
In article , Jim Cate
wrote: katysails wrote: This new guy said: one of the brokers I spoke with last week bragged that the owner of that boat had only taken the boat out some 10-12 times in the past ten years. Number 1, stop listening to brokers. There are only a very few honest brokers out there...the rest are tantamount to used car salesmen ir Kirby vacuum cleaner salesmen. Number 2, who cares how often the boat was taken out per year? The important thing is: as the boat well maintained and will it go through a sound survey? Number 3, stop looking at sailboats as investments. For the average sailor, they are a hobby...something nice and fun to do when you're not working or putting a new roof on your hou se. When you do get a boat, sail it as much as you personally can, and then when you move up or away or whatever, hope that the new owner finds as much enjoyment and pleasure in it as you did. In addition to speaking with the brokers, I'm getting some helpful inputs from the charter company that I may leave the boat with. - They want to be assured that the boat is reliable, in good working order, safe, and "saleable" to their clients. My thought is that if in their experience no one would want to charter a particular boat, the boat might have resale problems. Jim, the correct way to place a resale value on a boat for personal use is to assume it'll be zero. That way you'll be under no delusions that it's an investment and can enjoy it for what it is - a toy to provide pleasure. If you do end up selling it, anything you get will be a bonus. Peter Wiley |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Have you taken a look at the compilations of reviews done by Practical
Sailor?. That would be like buying a car based on Consumer Reports. S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster" "No shirt, no skirt, full service" |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Scott Vernon wrote: "Jim Cate" wrote Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive subject that most sailors don't want to talk about? No, quite frankly Jim, it's a stupid question. What does it matter how much time other people spend on their boat? Are you a sheep? A buddy who had a power boat used to keep track of what he spent and how much time he used it. He sold it after 2 years claiming, ''it just isn't worth it''. Sailing, for most of us, is a passion, not a business. What price do you put on that perfect sunny, breezy day out on the water, or a moonlit night sail, or that secluded quiet anchorage watching the sun set? Sensitive subject? Hell yes! Scott Vernon Plowville PA __/)__/)__ It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your "logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water, it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to. Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently, perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS, when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so the boat has to be appealing to her as well. In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance, dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc. Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
katysails wrote: And by the way, new guy Jim, it's "Kate", not Cate...someone spelled your last name wrong! Sorry, Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Scott,
I believe you and I have about the right size boat for being able to single hand. I think this has a lot to do with usage. Question; How much bigger do you think you could go before wanting a crew to help you (Needing a crew) sail. I find as I'm getting older, I'm more at ease with some one else on the boat. This wasn't always true. I loved those trips by myself with no time limits or distance limits. Very loose float plans for my kids and the boat and dog my only companion. You seem to sail the same way. Do you think a bigger boat would please you more? Ole Thom |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Jim,
Maybe you had best charter. You're looking upon buying a boat as = purchasing a thing, rather than an experience. Maybe you should set = your sites lower and buy a small sailboat that is inexpensive so that = you can start from scratch and develop the experience... --=20 katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
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30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Jim Cate wrote:
It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a very logical, sensible, and relevant question. Well, in that case, you should NOT buy a boat. It is an inherently illogical thing to do, and will lead to irrecoverable expenditures of money. The ONLY reason to buy a boat is that one enjoys sailing (or some other on-water pastime) so much that the expense is worth it. Once you get over this hurdle, that is the time to start thinking about which particular boat to buy. However you are still fiddling around in the starting gate, not sure if you want to run or not... ... Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so the boat has to be appealing to her as well. In that case, the odds against you are astronomical. Very very few women enjoy sailing... and a big reason for that is the way most men act on boats. If your wife has not liked sailing up to now, expecting her to change is downright stupid. I married a woman who not only loved to sail, but owned a boat herself. However, I'm a very lucky man. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
"Jim Cate" wrote in message ... It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your "logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water, it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to. Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently, perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS, when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so the boat has to be appealing to her as well. In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance, dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc. Jim If all you want to do is figure out how often the "average" boat owner uses his boat, hang out at the marina. As someone else put it (Don Casey) "sailing is a leisure time activity. It should require only discretionary income, and not all of that. Maybe if you think you had the right boat, YOU would spend every free minute on the water. The odds are against you. Take a walk through any marina on a perfect Saturday and compare the number of empty slips to the number with boats still tied in them. I assure you that the owners of all those boats intended to use them very weekend, certainly every sunny weekend. What happened? Reality. A sunny weekend is also perfect for tennis. Or golf. Or a cookout with friends. Or working on the lawn. Or a drive to Grandma's. There are also concerts and weddings, sporting event and sales. And there are weekends when it is rainy, or cold, or you just don't want to do anything." The name of the book is "This Old Boat", pretty good reading though I'll admit I might not ever take on the projects he covers in this book, the first part talks about boat selection and even the justification for owning. I own because I want to be able to sail whenever I fell like it. I took up racing last season (crewing on someone else's boat) and probably logged more miles under the keel of his boat than my own, to the point where I had thoughts about selling MY boat. Why didn't I? I still want to own my own boat, period. It makes no sense on a financial basis, but it's my money right? Chartering as an alternative to ownership? If you OWN(no lien) your own boat, one weeklong bareboat charter to a nice destination like the Caribbean will equal or surpass my total annual expenses associated with boat ownership. The bottom line, owning a sailboat is not a "rational" decision. Might be more rational to purchase a used boat rather than new one, but you can't "justify" the expense. Just something you either do or don't, like a lot of things in life. Just my $2. John Cairns |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Jim,
Hey Group, don't sell Jim to short. He isn't without experience. He is a Long Island Sound sailor, with a merchant mariner's license. He is in another part of the country that is different and trying to come to grips with it. Ole Thom |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
katysails wrote: Jim, Maybe you had best charter. You're looking upon buying a boat as purchasing a thing, rather than an experience. Maybe you should set your sites lower and buy a small sailboat that is inexpensive so that you can start from scratch and develop the experience... Like a new Mac 26M for example? As was discussed in the earlier string, one option would be to buy a small boat and continue to charter larger boats from time to time. Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
Dave wrote: On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:12:46 -0600, Jim Cate said: Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to. Having spent a number of years as a boat owner, a number of later years as a non-owner, and now having bought again, I can tell you that while chartering may seem to make sense in the abstract, in practice you prolly won't do it. In the years when I had my previous boat I was on the water nearly every weekend the weather allowed. During the years as a non-owner I chartered exactly once and was able to sail 4 days out of a 7 day charter. There's a big difference between just driving down to the boat on a Friday night, and making all the needed arrangements for a charter. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 I understand your point. Our family spend a number of vacations on chartered boats, in which we usually chartered the boats (30 to 40 ft) for a week and lived aboard the boat. This worked out well for us, and although there are some disadvantages, it's nice to leave the boat with the charter company if you don't have lots of free time. I'm looking at boats now because I am transitioning to a work arrangement that will give me more time for sailing and other interests. Jim |
30 to 35-foot boats, days used?
DSK wrote: Jim Cate wrote: It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a very logical, sensible, and relevant question. Well, in that case, you should NOT buy a boat. It is an inherently illogical thing to do, and will lead to irrecoverable expenditures of money. The ONLY reason to buy a boat is that one enjoys sailing (or some other on-water pastime) so much that the expense is worth it. Once you get over this hurdle, that is the time to start thinking about which particular boat to buy. However you are still fiddling around in the starting gate, not sure if you want to run or not... Perhaps. But I've only been looking for a few weeks. ... Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so the boat has to be appealing to her as well. In that case, the odds against you are astronomical. Very very few women enjoy sailing... and a big reason for that is the way most men act on boats. If your wife has not liked sailing up to now, expecting her to change is downright stupid. So, if I get a boat, I should get one with autohelm and lines led aft? I married a woman who not only loved to sail, but owned a boat herself. However, I'm a very lucky man. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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