dougies and jeffies and others seem eternally worried about NAVIGATING AT SEA
without triple redundant gps's, RDF, working C. Plath sextant, Almanac,
chronometer and SSB for time clicks.

This sailor -- who has sailed something more than a Hunter 19 or training
wheels -- thinks a single cardboard beer box is enough.

"When we asked what Babe would use to navigate, he pulled out a crude
astrolabe-like device he made from the cardboard from a beer box. "With this, I
can get my position, without tables or a watch, to within 60 miles."

see link for more of the story:

http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicL...#anchor1085433

Hey jaxie, you're the one who had three GPS's and Loran and was still afraid of
hitting the "rocks" at Cape Hatteras. You even showed a picture of the surf ten
miles away from the light to show how dangerous it was. Your first comment on
the experience was that it would be impossible without a GPS!

I used to cruise the Maine coast, often going 30 miles off shore and making
landfall in the fog with nothing more than a Ray-Jefferson RDF. I also carried
a paper "lifeboat sextant" but had little occasion to use it. You, on the other
hand, are scared ****less of being within 10 miles of shoals, even with 3 GPS's
on board! If you just learned how to read a chart and use a compass the world
wouldn't be such a scary place, jaxie!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dougies and jeffies and others seem eternally worried about NAVIGATING AT SEA
without triple redundant gps's, RDF, working C. Plath sextant, Almanac,
chronometer and SSB for time clicks.

This sailor -- who has sailed something more than a Hunter 19 or training
wheels -- thinks a single cardboard beer box is enough.

"When we asked what Babe would use to navigate, he pulled out a crude
astrolabe-like device he made from the cardboard from a beer box. "With this,
I
can get my position, without tables or a watch, to within 60 miles."

see link for more of the story:

http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicL...#anchor1085433

jeffies, if you "navigated" through fog off Maine using just an RDF, either you
didn't understand just how lucky you were, or you were purposely trying to kill
yourself.

RDF gets you "kinda close" but that's about it. It is good for know
approximately where you are.

So, did you understand the danger you put yourself in or didn't you?

btw jeffies, why your claim now that you are willing to blunder around blindly
in a fog along a rocky coast where in the past you claimed EVERYone needed a
sextant as a backup in case "all the electronics went bad"

btw-2, we did indeed have a gps etc but we knew enough not to trust the charts
as close as we were going. If we didn't find the light where we expected to
find it, we would turn around. We found it. you, on the over hand, claim you
just blundered on.

you were lucky, dumbass.

and, it appears, to this day you don't know it.


Hey jaxie, you're the one who had three GPS's and Loran and was still afraid
of
hitting the "rocks" at Cape Hatteras. You even showed a picture of the surf
ten
miles away from the light to show how dangerous it was. Your first comment
on
the experience was that it would be impossible without a GPS!

I used to cruise the Maine coast, often going 30 miles off shore and making
landfall in the fog with nothing more than a Ray-Jefferson RDF. I also
carried
a paper "lifeboat sextant" but had little occasion to use it. You, on the
other
hand, are scared ****less of being within 10 miles of shoals, even with 3
GPS's
on board! If you just learned how to read a chart and use a compass the
world
wouldn't be such a scary place, jaxie!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dougies and jeffies and others seem eternally worried about NAVIGATING AT
SEA
without triple redundant gps's, RDF, working C. Plath sextant, Almanac,
chronometer and SSB for time clicks.

This sailor -- who has sailed something more than a Hunter 19 or training
wheels -- thinks a single cardboard beer box is enough.

"When we asked what Babe would use to navigate, he pulled out a crude
astrolabe-like device he made from the cardboard from a beer box. "With
this,
I
can get my position, without tables or a watch, to within 60 miles."

see link for more of the story:


http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicL...#anchor1085433

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, if you "navigated" through fog off Maine using just an RDF, either you
didn't understand just how lucky you were, or you were purposely trying to kill
yourself.

RDF gets you "kinda close" but that's about it. It is good for know
approximately where you are.

You really do need to get some training, Jax. RDF was frequently used as
an approach system to obtain some reasonably accurate positions, which
could be augmented by other methods, or augment those other methods to
get some very accurate positions, especially when used by an experienced
operator with a calibrated receiver.

So, did you understand the danger you put yourself in or didn't you?

btw jeffies, why your claim now that you are willing to blunder around blindly
in a fog along a rocky coast where in the past you claimed EVERYone needed a
sextant as a backup in case "all the electronics went bad"

G You still haven't learned that a sextant is normally used for
offshore navigation.

btw-2, we did indeed have a gps etc but we knew enough not to trust the charts
as close as we were going. If we didn't find the light where we expected to
find it, we would turn around. We found it. you, on the over hand, claim you
just blundered on.

If you didn't trust the charts, why?, and why were you running that
close if this was the case? Sounds like some bad decision making when
doing your route planning.


otn

over the nee, you obviously have no idea how RDF works.

[snip a bunch of nonsense, but leave the following nonsense in]

If you didn't trust the charts, why?,

oh, I dunno. good seamanship maybe? An understanding of how charts were
produced? Maybe just making sure the lights were working that night?

and why were you running that
close if this was the case?

because we could see the lights, and they appeared where we expected them too.
When one didn't appear as expected we became extremely watchful, and were ready
to turn around if it didn't appear very shortly. It appeared.

Sounds like some bad decision making when
doing your route planning.


I didn't plan the route. The career merchant marine with a couple decades
offshore racing experience did. He was trying to skirt inside the Gulf Stream
so we didn't have to cross it and then recross it sometime later. If the light
hadn't appeared we were within a few seconds of turning around. so, what's the
problem?

JAXAshby wrote:
over the nee, you obviously have no idea how RDF works.

[snip a bunch of nonsense, but leave the following nonsense in]

ROFLMAO In other words, Jax, YOU don't know anything about RDF as used
on ships, and didn't, as per usual have a clue as to how it could be
used, or what I was talking about.


If you didn't trust the charts, why?,


oh, I dunno.
\
You got THAT right !!!!

snipped a bunch of nonsense


and why were you running that
close if this was the case?


because we could see the lights, and they appeared where we expected them too.
When one didn't appear as expected we became extremely watchful, and were ready
to turn around if it didn't appear very shortly. It appeared.

In other words, you could not trust your navigation skills ..... wise
choice. It's becoming more and more obvious that the only thing you are
experienced at is walking the floors and docks at boat shows, reading
boating magazines, and occasionally sailing as someone's crew.


Sounds like some bad decision making when
doing your route planning.



I didn't plan the route. The career merchant marine with a couple decades
offshore racing experience did. He was trying to skirt inside the Gulf Stream
so we didn't have to cross it and then recross it sometime later. If the light
hadn't appeared we were within a few seconds of turning around. so, what's the
problem?

Career merchant marine...... sure .... none of us believe that one.
Jax, the more of your post I read on this subject, the more I know you
don't have any experience or knowledge of the subject at hand. You were
along for the ride, and don't know what was going on or why.

otn

Well, I also had a compass, depth sounder, charts, and the knowledge of how to
use them. RDF is certainly less than perfect, but its a lot better than you
claim. It was considered to be accurate to 2 degrees, but I generally assumed
I'd get no better the 5 degrees with my small unit. However, when you're
running down the coast wondering if you've passed Portland or Monhegan the RDF
is very handy. There were a large number of radio beacons back then, so they
were quite useful for navigation. A number of them had radio signals
synchronized to fog signals, so it was possible to determine distance off.

Jaxie, millions of people sailed before the GPS was invented. Just because
you're scared ****less to go anywhere without three of them doesn't mean
everyone else is.

Your story (lets be honest, its a "fantasy," right?) doesn't hold water. The
light at Diamond Shoals is miles away from the shoals and visible for 18 miles.
If you had any experience in using a gps or even your depth sounder, you would
have had no trouble finding it. Getting "within 20 seconds of turning back" is
NOT something that happens to an experienced mariner in this situation.

As for the sextant, I never, ever made the claims that you say. In fact, I've
probably said its not worth learning how to use one unless you really want to.
I do think that the rudiments of celestial should be learned by anyone who goes
offshore, but it isn't necessary. Sextants are fun to use, and handy for some
types of piloting, but I haven't carried a quality sextant on board in many
years.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, if you "navigated" through fog off Maine using just an RDF, either
you
didn't understand just how lucky you were, or you were purposely trying to
kill
yourself.

RDF gets you "kinda close" but that's about it. It is good for know
approximately where you are.

So, did you understand the danger you put yourself in or didn't you?

btw jeffies, why your claim now that you are willing to blunder around blindly
in a fog along a rocky coast where in the past you claimed EVERYone needed a
sextant as a backup in case "all the electronics went bad"

btw-2, we did indeed have a gps etc but we knew enough not to trust the charts
as close as we were going. If we didn't find the light where we expected to
find it, we would turn around. We found it. you, on the over hand, claim you
just blundered on.

you were lucky, dumbass.

and, it appears, to this day you don't know it.


Hey jaxie, you're the one who had three GPS's and Loran and was still afraid
of
hitting the "rocks" at Cape Hatteras. You even showed a picture of the surf
ten
miles away from the light to show how dangerous it was. Your first comment
on
the experience was that it would be impossible without a GPS!

I used to cruise the Maine coast, often going 30 miles off shore and making
landfall in the fog with nothing more than a Ray-Jefferson RDF. I also
carried
a paper "lifeboat sextant" but had little occasion to use it. You, on the
other
hand, are scared ****less of being within 10 miles of shoals, even with 3
GPS's
on board! If you just learned how to read a chart and use a compass the
world
wouldn't be such a scary place, jaxie!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dougies and jeffies and others seem eternally worried about NAVIGATING AT
SEA
without triple redundant gps's, RDF, working C. Plath sextant, Almanac,
chronometer and SSB for time clicks.

This sailor -- who has sailed something more than a Hunter 19 or training
wheels -- thinks a single cardboard beer box is enough.

"When we asked what Babe would use to navigate, he pulled out a crude
astrolabe-like device he made from the cardboard from a beer box. "With
this,
I
can get my position, without tables or a watch, to within 60 miles."

see link for more of the story:



http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicL...#anchor1085433

jeffie, no RDF on any sailboat gave "accuracy" to withing 5*, let alone 2*.
Your statement just shows you have no idea how RDF works.

wondering if you've passed Portland or Monhegan the RDF
is very handy.

that is "5 degrees" by your estimation above? yeah, un huh.

millions of people sailed before the GPS was invented.

No kidding?

wanna take a guess how many of those who wandered around in a fog with granite
ledges in the water made port? For your information, approximated 25% of ALL
commercial shipping vessels made in the last 50 years of sail powered shipping
sunk before the boats were retired. one in four. That is what fog and granite
is for, to sink ships. ask around with the old timers and see what they did
say 40 years ago.

btw, well into the 1970's and even into the 1980's a cheap tranistor radio from
Radio Schack was considered an acceptable alternative to the commercially
available RDF units for recreational sailboats. Why a cheap radio from Radio
Schack? Because the cheap radio had a more directional antenna than the better
quality radios. I believe Hal Roth used a Radio Schack radio into the 1970's
and carried it as back up even later.

Getting "within 20 seconds of turning back" is
NOT something that happens to an experienced mariner in this situation.

really? you mean that career merchant marine was inexperienced? I kinda think
of him as a bit more seaman than some clown plowing through the granite ledges
of Maine listening to rock music radio stations (and a couple of dit dah dah
dit dah stations) to determine where he was.

btw, that paper sextant you said you carried and used in the fog to tell where
you were, didn't the moisture in the fog cause the paper to fall apart?

"JAXAshby" wrote i...
For your information, approximated 25% of ALL
commercial shipping vessels made in the last 50 years of sail powered
shipping
sunk before the boats were retired. one in four.

it was those darn U-boats hiding in LIS.

SV

"JAXAshby" once again demonstrated his stupidity with:
jeffie, no RDF on any sailboat gave "accuracy" to withing 5*, let alone 2*.
Your statement just shows you have no idea how RDF works.

jaxie, you've never seen one, let alone used one.


wondering if you've passed Portland or Monhegan the RDF
is very handy.

that is "5 degrees" by your estimation above? yeah, un huh.

Don't go to Maine, jaxie, it would be too scary for you.


millions of people sailed before the GPS was invented.

No kidding?

Nope. Millions.


wanna take a guess how many of those who wandered around in a fog with granite
ledges in the water made port? For your information, approximated 25% of ALL
commercial shipping vessels made in the last 50 years of sail powered shipping
sunk before the boats were retired. one in four. That is what fog and
granite
is for, to sink ships. ask around with the old timers and see what they did
say 40 years ago.

They used RDF for approaches. I think you're have a little problem with dates,
jaxie. RDF was not used (certainly not commonly) in the "last 50 years of sail
powered shipping." For instance, the last coffee-carrying sailing ship docked
in New York in 1914. The first radiobeacons were not set up until the '20's.
The automated lighthouse radiobeacons soon followed. It was because the US
adopted radiobeacons that it had one of the best safety records in the middle of
the last century.


btw, well into the 1970's and even into the 1980's a cheap tranistor radio
from
Radio Schack was considered an acceptable alternative to the commercially
available RDF units for recreational sailboats. Why a cheap radio from Radio
Schack? Because the cheap radio had a more directional antenna than the
better
quality radios. I believe Hal Roth used a Radio Schack radio into the 1970's
and carried it as back up even later.

Good for him. What's your point? You seem to be agreeing that it is useful.
But you're wrong that the pocket radios were preferable, that's just a myth.
There were certainly people saying "I can do just as well with my pocket radio"
but have used both, I can tell you it isn't true.


Getting "within 20 seconds of turning back" is
NOT something that happens to an experienced mariner in this situation.

really? you mean that career merchant marine was inexperienced?

The fact that he took you as a crew is proof enough for anyone here that he was
a desperate loser!

I kinda think
of him as a bit more seaman than some clown plowing through the granite ledges
of Maine listening to rock music radio stations (and a couple of dit dah dah
dit dah stations) to determine where he was.

Then why was he lost with 3 GPS's and a Loran on board? It sure seems like I
had a better idea of where I was.

You keep trying to prove to us that you're a great mariner because you were near
someone else that you think was great. But your stories just show that you had
no idea what was going on. You were scared ****less thinking you were about to
hit "rocks" that don't exist.

If you were within "20 seconds of turning back" it means you thought you were
within a few hundred yards of disaster. But the charts are pretty clear: as
long as you had 20 fathoms of water you weren't within 10 miles of a hazard.
Even at 10 fathoms, you'd stay miles from the shoals. You weren't "threading
the needle" in some DownEast tickle, you were rounding Diamond Shoals Light - 15
miles offshore, 8 miles from the shoals, with an 18 mile light. You had 3
GPS's, a Loran, and I assume a depth sounder. If you had the least doubt as to
where you were, you're a damn fool! If you were trying to "cut the corner"
inside of the light you're a damn fool. If you were about to "turn back" you're
a damn fool. So tell us, jaxie, what kind of fool are you?


btw, that paper sextant you said you carried and used in the fog to tell where
you were, didn't the moisture in the fog cause the paper to fall apart?


Its stayed tucked away for 25 years now, I've only used it a few times.