DSK wrote:



They also contain real tests of real boats by experts. The funny thing
is that the boats really are faster at the sort of angle I've quoted
than at 12 degrees. I guess you'd say they must all be wrong too? What
would Herreschof say?


Any of the Herreshoffs would probably say, "Don't argue with an idiot,
Doug, people might not be able to tell the difference. And besides, let
Navvie heel his boat 'way 'way over if it makes him feel all manly."

Good lord. Have you seen any pictures of Hereshoff racing? When he's
powered up he's got lots more than 12 degrees heel! No, wait, he can't
know anything 'cos Doug says 12 degrees is optimum. Hahahahhahaha What
did I post about the Gimcrack? hahhahahahaha Oh boy you are a class unto
yourself!


The only reason I have kept in this discussion is to counterbalance your
whacky suggestions that might be taken seriously by novice sailors. But
I think the time for that is passed.


Well as long as you keep giving your advice to American sailors, the
world won't have to worry about the USA winning any keelboat
competitions. 12 degrees heel is fastest for keelboats? I guess that's
why designers use 30 degrees?

Bwhahahahhahahaha

Cheers

"Nav" wrote in message
...


DSK wrote:

Anyway, long narrow boats like the IACC class and the old 12s too
tend to sail at higher angles of heel than more normally proportioned
boats. I still think 30 degrees is a bit of an overstatement.




Nav wrote:
Wot only a 'bit' now is it? Just yesterday you rubbished it! Doug,
lots of boats are only fully powered up at 30 (or more) degrees heel.


OK, I am still not sure what you mean by "powered up." It sounds to me
like you are relishing the feeling of heeling too much. It's fun, but
it's really not fast.

.... Of course as a dingly sailor you wouldn't know that but it's
really true.


Spoken like one whose experience in racing class dinghies is limited to
embarassing capsizes within 100 yards of the club dock.


Let me paint a typical picture for you: At that 30 degrees heel the
boat is alive and really punching through waves to windward.


At 30 degrees heel, the boat is heeling too much. It is "punching"
through waves because the hull presenting a set of awkward angles. Other
boats have depowered a little and are going faster.

Have you done any big boat sailing or been in a race in windy
conditions? Why not read the book whose URL I posted and then come back
on it. Better yet go back to the classic literature and look at the
tests of the Gimcrack. She was fastest at 30 degrees and was no faster
at 35 degrees. That's still a correct rule of thumb for most fast
cruiser racers today.

Perhaps Donal would like to post the figs. for his boat -if he's got them?

I'm waaay out of my depth here. However, Doug's words are making more sense
to me.


I've done the Round the Island (~65 miles) several times, with an
experienced, and competent helmsman. As you can imagine, my confidence has
increased each year. The first year, I was as culeless as Bobsprit.


My helmsman was a great sailor, but he had two faults. He always had
everything (halyards, sheets, etc) too tight, -- and he always sailed as if
he was in match racing.


Our third race was the best. I wasn't confident enough to take the tiller,
but I *was* confident enough to do the start, and control the sail plan
during the race.

The following year, I also did the helm - and we did crap. So, I'm an
average tactician, and a lousy helm. I *do* feel that my boat will perform
much better if she is reefed a bit earlier.


PS. I'm incredibly lucky with my crew. One of them has crossed the
Atlantic 3 times, one has done the Fastnet twice. I'm lucky that we get on
so well together.


Regards


Donal
--

Nav wrote:
Good lord. Have you seen any pictures of Hereshoff racing?


Which Herreshoff? One of the designers or one of the designs? Do you
even know how many designers are/were in the Herreshoff family?

... When he's
powered up he's got lots more than 12 degrees heel! No, wait, he can't
know anything 'cos Doug says 12 degrees is optimum.

You don't know what I said, do you? Do you bother to read any posts but
your own?

DSK

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

Good lord. Have you seen any pictures of Hereshoff racing?



Which Herreshoff? One of the designers or one of the designs? Do you
even know how many designers are/were in the Herreshoff family?

Nat.


... When he's powered up he's got lots more than 12 degrees heel! No,
wait, he can't know anything 'cos Doug says 12 degrees is optimum.


You don't know what I said, do you? Do you bother to read any posts but
your own?


Whoa! Talk about the pot calling the kettle... Do _you_ even read what
_you_ post. OK here's what you posted: "Most boats like about 12 degrees
of heel."

Since you were rubbishing the 30 degree heel for IACC boats, the
GIMCRACK data I posted and the common design criteria of 30 degrees heel
it is clear isn't it?

Cheers


DSK

Nav,

Really!! You're not being fair calling those "Solo around the world"
boats mono's. Their beams are so wide and their draft so shallow that
they are Cats built in one piece and designed to sail with more than
half the hull flying.

They were just about as bad as the Kiwi POS used for the cup defense.

Their failure rate in that last so called race wound up being for
survival and not for speed!

Ole Thom

Which Herreshoff?

Nav wrote:
Nat.

Well, that's one question answered. Are you going to answer the second (
I know you'd prefer to ignore the third)?

Read and learn
http://www.employees.org/~b299/herreshoff.html

One of the designers or one of the designs?

I'd assume you mean one of Nat Herreshoff's designs, since his renown
was not as a skipper.

http://www.herreshoff.org/
Unfortunately not too many photos available here, but the one on the
cover page is Reliance (1903) heeling what appears to be about 20
degrees (Oz will be pleased to note that her rail is just clear of the
water).

.....OK here's what you posted: "Most boats like about 12 degrees
of heel."

And so, you take that one remark out of context and based on that alone,
post 100 attacks on me?

When are you going to post the results of your emails which were going
to *prove* that I'm a liar?

DSK

http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/mmphotojboat6big.htm

This is the America's Cup winner of 1930, an N.G. Herreshoff design and the
last AmCup racer with a centerboard. The wind looks fairly light (although
remember that this boat is 120+' LOA, which distorts the scale) and the boat
is heeling 12 ~ 15 degrees... but look at the wake. Obviously the boat is
moving well. But is it "powered up"?

BTW the rest of the series os pretty nice too.

I suspect that Navvie (and a lot of others) consistently overestimate heel
angle. When you're on the boat, the constant motion makes it seem like the
boat is heeling a lot more than it really is. I've had people tell me we
were heeling 45 degrees when in fact it was only 20 on the fun-meter. When
looking at pics, the angle of the leach always exaggerates the heel too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Nice photo's. I looked at all of them
starting here.

http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/mmphotoframe.htm


DSK wrote

http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/mmphotojboat6big.htm

This is the America's Cup winner of 1930, an N.G. Herreshoff design and the
last AmCup racer with a centerboard. The wind looks fairly light (although
remember that this boat is 120+' LOA, which distorts the scale) and the boat
is heeling 12 ~ 15 degrees... but look at the wake. Obviously the boat is
moving well. But is it "powered up"?

BTW the rest of the series os pretty nice too.

I suspect that Navvie (and a lot of others) consistently overestimate heel
angle. When you're on the boat, the constant motion makes it seem like the
boat is heeling a lot more than it really is. I've had people tell me we
were heeling 45 degrees when in fact it was only 20 on the fun-meter. When
looking at pics, the angle of the leach always exaggerates the heel too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Nav,

If you go back and read the opening paragraph on Hood's design goal of
sails, you have "BUSTED YOURSELF!"

They state the goal of design is to; "mininmize drag and heel"

My friend, I do believe you are beating yourself to death trying to get
at Doug. Give it up.

OT

DSK wrote:
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/mmphotojboat6big.htm

This is the America's Cup winner of 1930, an N.G. Herreshoff design and the
last AmCup racer with a centerboard. The wind looks fairly light (although
remember that this boat is 120+' LOA, which distorts the scale) and the boat
is heeling 12 ~ 15 degrees... but look at the wake. Obviously the boat is
moving well. But is it "powered up"?

No it isn't. She's not near her hull speed (look at the stern) and the
wind is light. I'll be she'd be closer to hull speed when heeld to 25-30.

Cheers