"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Shen44" wrote in message
...

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".


Interesting, what if any inputs do you get?


Not much. ... The slapping of the waves on the hull??


And the eTrex in his pocket.

Awww, c'mon!!!!




Regards


Donal
--

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
(Shen44) wrote in message
...

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".


Interesting, what if any inputs do you get?

Shen


My guess is radar or gps. If you do not get any inputs you are truly
blind.
Anyone who cant run a channel with a chart & a gps or radar should not be
on a boat.



No, no, no......

You have to guess your position without *any* aids.



Regards


Donal
--

Subject: And ???????
From: "Donal"
Date: 12/24/2003 04:16 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".


Interesting, what if any inputs do you get?


Not much. ... The slapping of the waves on the hull??

Regards


Donal
--
Actually, it was a serious question .... I'd be curious as to what the
parameters of the exam were.

Shen

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
(Shen44) wrote in message
...

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".


Interesting, what if any inputs do you get?

Shen


My guess is radar or gps. If you do not get any inputs you are truly
blind.
Anyone who cant run a channel with a chart & a gps or radar should not be
on a boat.



No, no, no......

You have to guess your position without *any* aids.

That's easy, your position is at the chart table. Remember, Jax taught us that
with no inputs, its impossible to know your position!

"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
(Shen44) wrote in message
...

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".


Interesting, what if any inputs do you get?

Shen


My guess is radar or gps. If you do not get any inputs you are truly
blind.
Anyone who cant run a channel with a chart & a gps or radar should not be
on a boat.



No, no, no......

You have to guess your position without *any* aids.

Oh OK. Sorta like Physic viewing. ****...... if I could do that I'd be
working for the CIA.

Thats the answer.... Lets hire a Yachtsmaster to find Ossama.

Joe




Regards


Donal
--

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: And ???????
From: "Donal"
Date: 12/24/2003 04:16 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".


Interesting, what if any inputs do you get?


Not much. ... The slapping of the waves on the hull??


Actually, it was a serious question .... I'd be curious as to what the
parameters of the exam were.

My answer was also fairly serious.

You sit at the chart table, give directions to the crew, and you have to
estimate your position after 1/2 an hour, or so.

I'm sure that you may ask the helmsman to confirm the compass reading, but
apart from that you have no feedback.

I don't know what accuracy is required to obtain a pass. I suspect that
the examiner takes the conditions into account.

Regards


Donal
--

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"JN" wrote in message
. ..
Now you're qualified to take me for an evening sail next summer when
I
spend
my annual week in the Keys and serve me a glass of wine when I
demand
it,
serve me a snack when I want it, and in general put up with all my
garbage
because I won't give a tip if you don't ?????

Huh, cappy wappy? Is that what your paper gives you permission to
do?


Thats the OZ yachtmaster ticket you must be talking about. I hear the
only pratical test a "yachtmaster" has to take, is how quick he can
get his knee pads on and off. Here in the USA licences are for working
mariners.

Joe, it appears that you know as much about the Yachtmaster
qualification as
you do about international affairs.

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

Hmmm. I shouldn't have said "a few metres". I don't know what degree of
accuracy is required.


Big deal Donal. I use to run the Schaffer, Shane, Mississippi and the
Holma navigation canal and the houston ship channel at 25 knots and
the fog was so thick you could not see 2 foot.

2 foot!!! Now *that* is what I would call a peasouper!!



You could paint the
wheel house windows black and I could tell you ever dock we passed and
every stream that lead into the river and tell you every were every
shallow spot was.


Emmm. So what? Those things are all clearly identified on the chart,
aren't they?





In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

Yea did it all the time carrying 100 passengers and half a million
dollars of tools, everyday. This time of year is the worst on the
Mississippi delta. But like I said Ive ran south and SW pass of the
mississippi in fog so thick you could cut it with a knife. Had to-the
helicopter could not fly. And I wasent farting around at 4 knots, we
usually ran at 25-30 knots.

No Coll Regs in your part of the world, huh?




Do you have to do this for the USCG ticket?

Plotting is a major part of the test

But whats important is we had to do it everyday for real, and you
better be able to tune in a radar to pick up logs, perows, and plywood
hunk of **** boats unless you want some insane coonass to put a few 30
30 shells thru your wheelhouse.



I picked up a 2 gallon paint tin on my radar once. The visibility was about
2 feet, (or maybe 50 yards), and only a third of the can was sticking above
the water. The gain was set to "auto". Isn't modern technology a
wonderful thing?



Regards


Donal
--

"JN" nottelling@ wrote in message ...
Never been to the Florida Keys, have you? Imagine this, a tropical paradise


rotflol: a tropical paradise ?

you must have been a tourist :

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/cruisingkeywest/joke.html

in which everyone wants to live, but there are very few jobs. What to do?

ah, the elevator opens in KW

They either sell t-shirts, wait tables, or take tourists out to the reef.
There are soooooo many people trying to make a living on the water down
there the captains will wipe your hiney-hole for you if you ask them.

As someone from KW who actually has earned a living using a 100t
masters license with aux sail endorsement operating an inspected
vessel and occassionally hiring sailboat captains for reef trips I
feel qualified to add a few comments to this threads food fight.

On hiring captains, I have had to hire a few..


the license only qualifies you for a job, what makes you a preferred
candidate will be:

EXPERIENCE with similar sized/type vessels.

LOCAL KNOWLEDGE of area marine life, reefs, Sanctuary regulations and
weather

MAINTENANCE SKILLS -- can you do routine maintenance, change a diesel
fuel filter and bleed the system get a fuel starved engine running?
can you change a water pump impeller?

Can you keep the vessel operating to Inspected vessel standards?
examples- keep flares in date, keep fire extinguishers certified,

Inspected passenger vessels are just that INSPECTED !

for those of you unfamiliar with Inspected vessels there are basically
two types of inspections, announced and unannounced;

announced inspections can be divided into three components;

Yard: When vessel is hauled, one aspect: remove all seacocks and/or
throughhull valves and present them for inspector, hull exterior,keel,
rudder inspected.

Annual Inspection all safety equipment reviewed, vessel condition
reviewed, all vessel paperwork (VHF station License, wastemanagement
plan, documentation, inspected vessel paperwork etc) Captains and
crews paperwork ( licenses aboard, radiotelephony certicate, ,
redcross first aid (3y) and CPR (1Y) uptodate, entered in Consortium
etc)

Announced inspection, this ***INCLUDES*** vessel OPERATION with MOB
drill, fire drill, etc.


unannounced MSO inspection, MSO officer just shows up unannounced and
checks equipment and paperwork.


then theres random spot inspections by regular coasties example:
I have been boarded at the reef and inspected while passengers were
snorkelling, I have been boarded (vessel to vessel) at the dock and
spot inspected as passengers were boarding...

so word gets out we need a relief captain and a not uncommon event
would be for a "license-qualified" capt to apply. He got his license
in New England and just moved to the keys. He fished new england for
xx years but knows nothing of our ecosystem, our marine life, our
weather. I CAN'T hire him when theres more qualified candidates
(usually mates who have worked locally on larger boats then gotten
licenses). I my experience the license qualified local "Yachties" who
applied for these jobs / had the license/ have the knowledge/ the
majority of the yachties are able to run the smaller boats, never had
a problem hiring a local to run the uninspected sloop (41'), the
bigger 20 passenger inspected vessel seemed to intimidate the yachties
and there was always a much smaller pool of people applying, having a
license only got your application on my desk. There was never a reason
for me to hire someone because they had XXX license; _everybody
applying_ has the license- the people we HIRED knew the waters, the
local regs, the marine life, the ecosystem... Only a few vessels in
Key West require more than 100t license, even the Western Union is
90t...

http://www.schoonerwesternunion.com/History.htm

A very well thought out and written exposé!

It proves a couple of things. For one it proves
people like Shen, Otn, RickyTickyTugs, and
other unlimited license holders have little
grasp on reality. They think because they've
run big ships that they are more qualified
to run the smaller stuff in shallow water,
reef environments. The unfortunate number
of shipping that runs aground each and
every year on a well-marked reef alone
proves these people have more ego than
sense or skill.

You said it right when you said experience
and local knowledge are of paramount
importance. Responsible yachties who hold
the smaller licenses and have lived and
sailed the area for many years, know the
weather and the bottom, can read the water
even when it's milky, brown or green with
a bloom will have far greater success navigating
these waters than some "pilot house potato"
who excels at watching a radar screen and
barreling 20-30 knots through traffic in
restricted vis.

Shen, Otn and little Ricky could show up requesting
employ on a local head boat and a local yachtie with
a small license and local knowledge, experience and
a good work record would beat all of them out for
the job every time. That's what sticks in their craws.

S.Simon

"Roy G. Biv" wrote in message om...
"JN" nottelling@ wrote in message ...
Never been to the Florida Keys, have you? Imagine this, a tropical paradise


rotflol: a tropical paradise ?

you must have been a tourist :

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/cruisingkeywest/joke.html

in which everyone wants to live, but there are very few jobs. What to do?

ah, the elevator opens in KW

They either sell t-shirts, wait tables, or take tourists out to the reef.
There are soooooo many people trying to make a living on the water down
there the captains will wipe your hiney-hole for you if you ask them.

As someone from KW who actually has earned a living using a 100t
masters license with aux sail endorsement operating an inspected
vessel and occassionally hiring sailboat captains for reef trips I
feel qualified to add a few comments to this threads food fight.

On hiring captains, I have had to hire a few..


the license only qualifies you for a job, what makes you a preferred
candidate will be:

EXPERIENCE with similar sized/type vessels.

LOCAL KNOWLEDGE of area marine life, reefs, Sanctuary regulations and
weather

MAINTENANCE SKILLS -- can you do routine maintenance, change a diesel
fuel filter and bleed the system get a fuel starved engine running?
can you change a water pump impeller?

Can you keep the vessel operating to Inspected vessel standards?
examples- keep flares in date, keep fire extinguishers certified,

Inspected passenger vessels are just that INSPECTED !

for those of you unfamiliar with Inspected vessels there are basically
two types of inspections, announced and unannounced;

announced inspections can be divided into three components;

Yard: When vessel is hauled, one aspect: remove all seacocks and/or
throughhull valves and present them for inspector, hull exterior,keel,
rudder inspected.

Annual Inspection all safety equipment reviewed, vessel condition
reviewed, all vessel paperwork (VHF station License, wastemanagement
plan, documentation, inspected vessel paperwork etc) Captains and
crews paperwork ( licenses aboard, radiotelephony certicate, ,
redcross first aid (3y) and CPR (1Y) uptodate, entered in Consortium
etc)

Announced inspection, this ***INCLUDES*** vessel OPERATION with MOB
drill, fire drill, etc.


unannounced MSO inspection, MSO officer just shows up unannounced and
checks equipment and paperwork.


then theres random spot inspections by regular coasties example:
I have been boarded at the reef and inspected while passengers were
snorkelling, I have been boarded (vessel to vessel) at the dock and
spot inspected as passengers were boarding...

so word gets out we need a relief captain and a not uncommon event
would be for a "license-qualified" capt to apply. He got his license
in New England and just moved to the keys. He fished new england for
xx years but knows nothing of our ecosystem, our marine life, our
weather. I CAN'T hire him when theres more qualified candidates
(usually mates who have worked locally on larger boats then gotten
licenses). I my experience the license qualified local "Yachties" who
applied for these jobs / had the license/ have the knowledge/ the
majority of the yachties are able to run the smaller boats, never had
a problem hiring a local to run the uninspected sloop (41'), the
bigger 20 passenger inspected vessel seemed to intimidate the yachties
and there was always a much smaller pool of people applying, having a
license only got your application on my desk. There was never a reason
for me to hire someone because they had XXX license; _everybody
applying_ has the license- the people we HIRED knew the waters, the
local regs, the marine life, the ecosystem... Only a few vessels in
Key West require more than 100t license, even the Western Union is
90t...

http://www.schoonerwesternunion.com/History.htm

"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"JN" wrote in message
. ..
Now you're qualified to take me for an evening sail next summer when
I
spend
my annual week in the Keys and serve me a glass of wine when I
demand
it,
serve me a snack when I want it, and in general put up with all my
garbage
because I won't give a tip if you don't ?????

Huh, cappy wappy? Is that what your paper gives you permission to
do?


Thats the OZ yachtmaster ticket you must be talking about. I hear the
only pratical test a "yachtmaster" has to take, is how quick he can
get his knee pads on and off. Here in the USA licences are for working
mariners.

Joe, it appears that you know as much about the Yachtmaster
qualification as
you do about international affairs.

One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

Hmmm. I shouldn't have said "a few metres". I don't know what degree of
accuracy is required.


Big deal Donal. I use to run the Schaffer, Shane, Mississippi and the
Holma navigation canal and the houston ship channel at 25 knots and
the fog was so thick you could not see 2 foot.

2 foot!!! Now *that* is what I would call a peasouper!!



You could paint the
wheel house windows black and I could tell you ever dock we passed and
every stream that lead into the river and tell you every were every
shallow spot was.


Emmm. So what? Those things are all clearly identified on the chart,
aren't they?

Most are, but you learn the radar picture.






In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

Yea did it all the time carrying 100 passengers and half a million
dollars of tools, everyday. This time of year is the worst on the
Mississippi delta. But like I said Ive ran south and SW pass of the
mississippi in fog so thick you could cut it with a knife. Had to-the
helicopter could not fly. And I wasent farting around at 4 knots, we
usually ran at 25-30 knots.

No Coll Regs in your part of the world, huh?

Yes we have col regs and I obeyed them. Why do you ask. Is it because
of the speed we were running?






Do you have to do this for the USCG ticket?

Plotting is a major part of the test

But whats important is we had to do it everyday for real, and you
better be able to tune in a radar to pick up logs, perows, and plywood
hunk of **** boats unless you want some insane coonass to put a few 30
30 shells thru your wheelhouse.



I picked up a 2 gallon paint tin on my radar once. The visibility was about
2 feet, (or maybe 50 yards), and only a third of the can was sticking above
the water. The gain was set to "auto". Isn't modern technology a
wonderful thing?

With 50 yards visibility you should have no problem.



Regards


Donal
--

Joe