BoatBanter.com - Professional Courtesy and Respect

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"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?

Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules for
the avoidance of Collisions??

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can help
you avoid a collision.

So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog? Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in its
proper place in a channel.

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)

One was from Ft. Myers, the other from Marco Island.

I'm not sure these are the same boats or schedules, but it definitely shows its
plausible. I think "Whale Watcher" was involved, but I don't recall "Captain
Red." Also, I thought the Ft. Myers boat started an hour earlier, but they
arrived at the same time.

http://www.vacationkeywest.net/key-west-ferry/

The initial newspaper reports made it sound like the ferry ran down a fishing
boat - this was not the case. The fishing boat was running full speed in thick
fog and hit the side of the ferry.

"Roy G. Biv" wrote in message
om...
Jeff,

what two ferries run that area and would have a schedule placing them
running side by side?

I reported what I read in the newspaper. . .

"Jeff Morris"

As it happened, I was in Key West when this occurred. The story, as I heard
it,
was that the small fishing boat was tracked on radar by two ferries which
were
traveling roughly side by side. They were in contact with each other but
could
not raise the small boat, which was approaching at over 25 knots. The
danger
signal was sounded by a ferry, but its not clear it was heard by the small
boat.
It passed behind the near ferry and plowed into the second at speed.

I forget the final resolution of the incident - typically fault is shared in
cases of collision, but its hard to find fault with the actions of the
ferries
in this case.

Jeff Morris wrote:

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

The operator of that small boat without radar may be foolish or even
foolhardy, or not, but the fact is that boat and operator have as much
"business" being there as you or the QE2.

The problem is with those who think that some another vessel has no
business being there and act as if it is not their responsibility to
take into account the possibility of meeting such a vessel in dense fog.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

The operator of that small boat without radar may be foolish or even
foolhardy, or not, but the fact is that boat and operator have as much
"business" being there as you or the QE2.

The problem is with those who think that some another vessel has no
business being there and act as if it is not their responsibility to
take into account the possibility of meeting such a vessel in dense fog.

So you claim that a plastic kayak with stealth coating, no radar or reflector,
has every right to travel in shipping channels in pea soup fog? That sounds
like stupidity to me. Or are you simply claiming that everyone has a right to
commit suicide?

Jeff Morris wrote:

So you claim that a plastic kayak with stealth coating, no radar or reflector,
has every right to travel in shipping channels in pea soup fog? That sounds
like stupidity to me. Or are you simply claiming that everyone has a right to
commit suicide?

Regardless of what you think about the mental capacity of the operator,
that kayak has every right to be there. It might sound like stupidity
but stupidity is legal. If you run down the kayak you will be held at
least partially responsible for the collision. Like it or not.

Be careful when you start asking for pecking order rights to use the
waterways. You might end up further down the list than you would prefer.

Rick

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?

Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules
for
the avoidance of Collisions??

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can
help
you avoid a collision.

So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if
there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog?
Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in
its
proper place in a channel.

No! I'm claiming that "local knowledge" does not mean that you may travel
at anything more than a safe speed!

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to be a
good reflector?

Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for other
vessels?

"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)

I think that is what I was saying!!

Regards

Donal
--

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
What about a tree trunk the size of a car? Any running lights on it,
How about a bouy, not all are lit. Hows about the typical weekend
warrior who forgot to turn on his running lights, hows about a rocky
jettie, how about a tow line and the million other things you can not
see on a pitch black night?

Are you really claiming that it is easy to avoid hitting a tree trunk at
25
kts?

Yes, if you see it on radar a mile ahead of you, its not a problem.
^^ IF?????

"IF" you see it on radar??????? What about IF you DON'T see it on radar?

[sigh]

I
will admit Ive struck enough submerged logs the the owner of one
crewboat I ran hung so many destroyed propellers on his beach house
that he named it the broken wheel ranch. Thats just part of the job
and should be expected on a high speed boat running the rivers of LA.

Are you saying that you think that it is easier to miss a buoy at 25
kts than at 4 kts??

Its very easy to miss a bouy if you can see it on radar, and most

There you go again! Another "IF" ????????

bouys and day shapes are designed to be seen on radar, big suprise
huh? If you get really good at radar you learn the ranges for the
ports you run. We had color radars on the MV Comet I ran and you could
assign diffrent colors for the height of objects. So lining up the
ranges was a piece of cake. You do know what range marker are huh?

Yes.

Regards

Donal
--

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...

Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?

Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules
for
the avoidance of Collisions??

on a dark night can you walk to your bathroom without smaking into
the walls?

Usually ..... [not always ... though].

I've never ****&d into the wardrobe (yet).

Well maybe I mean most normal people have a memory that they use to
their advantage, I can see how this will not apply to you.

Ahaaaa! Are you claiming that you can *remember* where the small boats
were? Is that why you don't need to keep a lookout?

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can
help
you avoid a collision.

I know you cant, thats because your always lost.

Now, now, Joe! Your neck is displaying its colour again!

I've done it a
thousand times. Nothing to it. If it's fog bound in an area I'm not
familiar with I usually wait and follow someone that knows the area.

Jeeeze! I'm only an amateur, but one of my basic rules is "NEVER
Follow
Anybody" - they might be as lost as you are!

Thats because you are an amateur, you not smart enough to figure out
if someone in front of you runs aground that not the best way to go.

No, Joe! That's because I have seen what happens when people follow
locals.

I think you missed the point of talking to everyone you meet on the
radio. If you do that you might be able to figure out that they know
the local area better than you do. But since you never go anywhere new
to you,

ahem I think that your [red] neck is showing again!

I have posted many accounts of *new* experiences here over the past few
years.

I guess this is a experience you will never have to do in real
life.

Don't guess. You aren't very good at guessing.

And yet you claim that you are happy to follow somebody else when you
are in
unfamiliar waters??? (See above).
Following people who "know the area" is the best way of running aground
that
I have come across.

Read the above. Locals are one of your best sources of recent
knowledge.

Joe, are you rreally stupid enough to believe that locals can relieve you of
your duty to keep a lookout in thick fog?

Back in Mark Twains day on the mississippi they use to tie
wooden Kegs or barrels at diffrent areas of the river. Inside these
barrels the skippers would leave notes to each other about shifting
sand bars, snags, currents and anything that has changed locally.

We are talking about keeping a lookout for other vessels! Even in Mark
Twain's day, people weren't stupid enough to document the positions of small
vessels in small wooden kegs.

Today we have what is called the LOCAL notice to mariners that is
compiled mostly by LOCALS that see things that change from what
printed on charts. Perhaps your to macho to talk to a local and ask
for quideance, Im not.

Local notices to Mariners would be effin clever if they were able to tell
you where small craft were sailing.

We're talking about "keeping a lookout" in this thread.

Joe,
You are a menace! It is obvious that you shouldn't be allowed to sail
anywhere.

Donal your a idiot with very limited knowledge of how to go anywhere
except on a crystal clear day with up to date charts and channels that
are very well marked. Its odvious you would be laughed off any
proffesional fleet.

I have several million miles under my belt on all types of keels, and
you?

I dunno! About 15,000, I guess.

Perhaps I learn as much in one mile, as you do in 1000 miles.

Regards

Donal
--

"Rick" wrote in message
link.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

So you claim that a plastic kayak with stealth coating, no radar or
reflector,
has every right to travel in shipping channels in pea soup fog? That sounds
like stupidity to me. Or are you simply claiming that everyone has a right
to
commit suicide?

Regardless of what you think about the mental capacity of the operator,
that kayak has every right to be there.

I'm not so sure of that. Rule 19 is pretty clear that any movement may be
inappropriate, and vessels have been held completely at fault for leaving the
dock without radar.

It might sound like stupidity
but stupidity is legal. If you run down the kayak you will be held at
least partially responsible for the collision. Like it or not.

If the kayak crosses paths with a tanker in the fog, I doubt the tanker would be
assigned any fault.

Be careful when you start asking for pecking order rights to use the
waterways. You might end up further down the list than you would prefer.

I haven't asked for any rights. There are no rights in the ColRegs, only
responsibilities. And the kayak isn't in any pecking order. And the pecking
order doesn't apply in the fog. The pecking order only applies "when in
sight" - if a vessel choses to be invisible, it doesn't have "pecking order
rights."