The colregs clearly say the vessel need not be diplacement. In that
sense, a ski is simply overloaded and sinks when not planing. They also
float without people on them!

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

Does a small fishing boat flying a kite to fish become a sailboat?

The_navigator© wrote:

Again, what is the definition of a vessel? Is a trolling line capable of
transport? No. Is a kite surfing board? I think you know the answer but
are just too stubborn.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Your logic is anything but logical.

A kite boarder is not recognized by the COLREGS
as a vessel. The kite, whether you call it a sail or
not, is attached to the person and not the board.


The board is not a vessel any more than a water ski
is a vessel or a trolling line is a vessel or a taffrail
log is a vessel or a chum bag is a vessel or a parasailer
is a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

You still miss the point. Colregs apply to all vessels on the water. A
kite surfer can carry you from one place to another and is therefore a
vessel. As a vessel it is not powered by machinery or oars and is
therefore a sailing vessel or NUC. As the kite fits the definaition of a
sail I say it is a sailing vessel. Since they are not showing the day
shapes for NUC my logic prevails and they are a sailing vessel.

Cheers MC

Donal wrote:


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


I say you are both wrong. In fact the kite surfer is a sailboat under
existing Colregs. This is beacuse 1) the colregs describe all vessels
(3a) and (2) the "kite" is used as a means of propulsion and is
therefore a sail -by legal definition.



You should know better than to claim that I am wrong.

I awarded top marks to Neal because he is the only person to spot
that the
kite surfers constitute a "gray area" that needs to be cleared up.

Personally, I feel that they are sailing vessels.

Why has nobody answered the original question? ie What would you
do if
you were on a (starboard tack) collision course with a (port tack) kite
surfer?




Regards


Donal
--

No, it's not using the kite for propulsion.

Cheers MC

Kelton Joyner wrote:

Does a small fishing boat flying a kite to fish become a sailboat?

The_navigator© wrote:

Again, what is the definition of a vessel? Is a trolling line capable
of transport? No. Is a kite surfing board? I think you know the answer
but are just too stubborn.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Your logic is anything but logical.

A kite boarder is not recognized by the COLREGS
as a vessel. The kite, whether you call it a sail or
not, is attached to the person and not the board.


The board is not a vessel any more than a water ski
is a vessel or a trolling line is a vessel or a taffrail
log is a vessel or a chum bag is a vessel or a parasailer
is a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

You still miss the point. Colregs apply to all vessels on the water. A
kite surfer can carry you from one place to another and is therefore a
vessel. As a vessel it is not powered by machinery or oars and is
therefore a sailing vessel or NUC. As the kite fits the definaition
of a
sail I say it is a sailing vessel. Since they are not showing the day
shapes for NUC my logic prevails and they are a sailing vessel.

Cheers MC

Donal wrote:


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


I say you are both wrong. In fact the kite surfer is a sailboat under
existing Colregs. This is beacuse 1) the colregs describe all vessels
(3a) and (2) the "kite" is used as a means of propulsion and is
therefore a sail -by legal definition.




You should know better than to claim that I am wrong.

I awarded top marks to Neal because he is the only person to spot
that the
kite surfers constitute a "gray area" that needs to be cleared up.

Personally, I feel that they are sailing vessels.

Why has nobody answered the original question? ie What would you
do if
you were on a (starboard tack) collision course with a (port tack)
kite
surfer?




Regards


Donal
--

comments interspersed ...

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
You still miss the point. Colregs apply to all vessels on the water. A
kite surfer can carry you from one place to another and is therefore a
vessel. As a vessel it is not powered by machinery or oars and is
therefore a sailing vessel or NUC.

That doesn't follow. There's no requirement that it fits into a category. In fact, there
is no mention of vessels under oars,except to say they can use the same lights as a
sailboat, but can also simply have a flashlight.

As the kite fits the definaition of a
sail I say it is a sailing vessel.

I tend to agree. As for the claim that they fall into a "grey area" that "must" be
clarified, there are numerous grey areas that the IMO is quite happy to leave unresolved.
Many states in the US give rowboats right-of-way in inland lakes, but they have no such
privilege in ColRegs water.

I suppose the powers-that-be could clear this up be saying the kite-surfers are sailboats
and thus have the same status as windsurfers, or maybe they'll say no, they're different.
But in the meantime, they act like sailboats, and so should be treated the same.

BTW, between kite surfers, they use the sail boat rules.

Since they are not showing the day
shapes for NUC my logic prevails and they are a sailing vessel.

This makes no sense. Or are you claiming that "no under command" is their natural state?
You could make a better case that they should be RAMs.

Not a RAM, my point is that _if_ the Kite is not propulsion then with no
means to manouver they are NUC...

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:



This makes no sense. Or are you claiming that "no under command" is their natural state?
You could make a better case that they should be RAMs.

But, the colregs don't define displacement as not floating at all.
The word displacement means non-planing as in a displacement
sailboat vs. a planing motor boat.

Any craft or device that sinks out from under a person
unless the person is being pulled along at a good clip and
dragging the device along with him is clearly not a vessel.

Here is the definition again.

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of
being used as a means of transportation on water.

Note the word 'watercraft'. Here is the defintion of watercraft.

wa.ter.craft \-'kraft\ n : a craft for water transport : ship, boat

© 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary © 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

A board or a ski that has no way to be powered and sinks when one
stands on it cannot transport anything anywhere. These are not
watercraft. These are devices used by a person being pulled along
rapidly to stay on the surface.

S.Simon


S.Simon

"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
The colregs clearly say the vessel need not be diplacement. In that
sense, a ski is simply overloaded and sinks when not planing. They also
float without people on them!

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

Yes, because the sails are attached directly to the board.
Even small (sinker) boards are sailboats because the sail
is attached to them and can power them fast enough to
stay on the surface and go from place to place.

A windsurfer is a small sailboat.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Well answer the Q! You have raced haven't you?

The question was "What would you do if you were in a yacht on starboard
tack, and you were on a collision course with a kite surfer, who was on port
tack?"

I don't understand why you expect *me* to answer the question. I asked the
bloody question!

I was hoping that *you* might give an answer.


Regards


Donal
--

Capetanios Oz wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:31:14 -0000, "Donal"
wrote:

Don't sneer.

That wasn't a sneer

Sorry, ... I didn't mean to confuse you.



Regards


Donal
--