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shopping pains
"The Captains Master" wrote in message ... Oh and all the bent cops I knew are dead! You don't tolerate competition, huh? Regards Donal -- |
shopping pains
You might have started at 3'6" - what do you really think you have now? Your boom alone
probably added 2 inches! And in a blow that shoal draft keel makes more leeway than I do. I might loose that contest against a high pointing racing mono that's close to my length, but with your boat I wouldn't have to bear off at all to just walk away. Your only chance would be in a narrow channel. Simple Simon wrote: If I want three suites and queen-sized bed I'll go to Motel 8. I've got three and a half feet of draft and I'll race you to weather in a good blow on open water any time and I'll point higher than you. S.Simon "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Oh, right. Please tell us what monohull with a 3 foot draft goes to weather better than my boat. remeber, it has to have three staterooms with queen size bunks! Simple Simon wrote: "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Real cruisers stop by because they know my fridge is twice as large! But I'm often anchored close to shore since a three foot draft allows me to go where most monohulls only dream of. How about paying more attention to going where three-foot-draft monohulls can only dream of going - like to weather? He he! S.Simon. |
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You're just making this up - show us a stat.
Truth: Monohulls sink far more often than cats capsize Truth: Larger cruising Cats capsize so infrequently its not possible to have meaningful statistics. Most brands and models have never had a capsize. For instance, Prout built 4-5000 cruising cats which have sailed millions of blue water miles and they've never had a capsize or a sinking. Does this make them infinitely safer than most monohulls? Simple Simon wrote: All it takes is realism and common sense. Given ocean miles traveled . . . Fact: Cats capsize more often than monos Fact: Cats stay upside down more often than monos Who needs that" S.Simon "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:34:11 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote: There's no correlation. There are probably about five percent or less multi-hulls cruising the oceans of the world. Raw numbers would make it seem that monohulls suffered more losses but if one works the percentages it is easy to see that catamarans are much much more dangerous. They are a gimmick, a fad, an offshoot from the charter trade where people could care less about sailing. People who charter big cats only want room to party, refrigeration and freezers so they can stuff their faces with food they cooked in their 'gourmet galleys". They'd be far better of on a cruise ship, for gawd's sake. S.Simon - a Captain who knows cruising You're talking thru your hat.....again! Do me a favour, before you broach the subject again do some research on the multis lost in recent years....after the designs were sorted. Remember Cappy they haven't been around all that long. You're relying on bar talk and rumour, you have absolutely no basis for the BS you've trotted out. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
I'd say that for the all out racers, the trimarans hold the auto-destruct record. There
are certainly lots of cases recently of keels detaching - I've had a weird feeling about that sort of thing since I happened to meet Mike Plant a year before Coyote's keel fell off and he disappeared. But the ORMA 60 Tris don't seem to consider it a good race unless at least half the fleet capsizes or blows out the mast. In the Route du Rhum how many finished out of 18 starters? three? The Captains Master wrote: Wonder what the numbers are for monos that have dropped keels or bulbs in the last few years, some with fatal results compared to the number of multis, even full out racing multis pushed to that absolute limit taht have capsized. Betcha there's more monos!! On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:42:39 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote: You're just making this up - show us a stat. Truth: Monohulls sink far more often than cats capsize Truth: Larger cruising Cats capsize so infrequently its not possible to have meaningful statistics. Most brands and models have never had a capsize. For instance, Prout built 4-5000 cruising cats which have sailed millions of blue water miles and they've never had a capsize or a sinking. Does this make them infinitely safer than most monohulls? Simple Simon wrote: All it takes is realism and common sense. Given ocean miles traveled . . . Fact: Cats capsize more often than monos Fact: Cats stay upside down more often than monos Who needs that" S.Simon "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:34:11 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote: There's no correlation. There are probably about five percent or less multi-hulls cruising the oceans of the world. Raw numbers would make it seem that monohulls suffered more losses but if one works the percentages it is easy to see that catamarans are much much more dangerous. They are a gimmick, a fad, an offshoot from the charter trade where people could care less about sailing. People who charter big cats only want room to party, refrigeration and freezers so they can stuff their faces with food they cooked in their 'gourmet galleys". They'd be far better of on a cruise ship, for gawd's sake. S.Simon - a Captain who knows cruising You're talking thru your hat.....again! Do me a favour, before you broach the subject again do some research on the multis lost in recent years....after the designs were sorted. Remember Cappy they haven't been around all that long. You're relying on bar talk and rumour, you have absolutely no basis for the BS you've trotted out. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
I keep reading that the multi is faster due to less drag
as far as speed goes. As long as you don't overload it Comments were made about coastal sailing -- this is true only a idiot would take deep water, without completed lessons and only a few charters. So yes we plan on coastal sailing for a while. If I'm understanding it right any type --mono -- or multi sail boat will do deep water if you know what your doing. common sense tells me to do coastal sailing for the first two years and if we decide to do deep water take other sailboats with us. NH_/)_ "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... If I want three suites and queen-sized bed I'll go to Motel 8. I've got three and a half feet of draft and I'll race you to weather in a good blow on open water any time and I'll point higher than you. S.Simon "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Oh, right. Please tell us what monohull with a 3 foot draft goes to weather better than my boat. remeber, it has to have three staterooms with queen size bunks! Simple Simon wrote: "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Real cruisers stop by because they know my fridge is twice as large! But I'm often anchored close to shore since a three foot draft allows me to go where most monohulls only dream of. How about paying more attention to going where three-foot-draft monohulls can only dream of going - like to weather? He he! S.Simon. |
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I was thinking transient , since we plan on going up and down
the coast for a while until we get more experience. Due to the size I thought that it would be difficult to find a larger mooring, but maybe that's only if you dock then it would require two spots. yes having it be able to go in shallow waters -- is a plus -- no hitting rocks. :) Also less likely to get stuck on sandbars and having the keel fall off :) NH_/)_ "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:42:43 GMT, "NH_/\)_" wrote: 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room Actually its the exact opposite Because of the shallow draft you can go much further in than a mono and anchor in more sheltered water. Hell if you know the bottom you can even go in far enough for her to dry out at low tide. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
"NH_/\)_" wrote in
: I was thinking transient , since we plan on going up and down the coast for a while until we get more experience. Due to the size I thought that it would be difficult to find a larger mooring, but maybe that's only if you dock then it would require two spots. yes having it be able to go in shallow waters -- is a plus -- no hitting rocks. :) Also less likely to get stuck on sandbars and having the keel fall off :) IOW you want a boat for idiots. OK Well, there's plenty of advice to be had for such a craft here! Bertie and anchor in more sheltered water. Hell if you know the bottom you can even go in far enough for her to dry out at low tide. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
I saw the list.
Let's examine them. 1. Reduce sail early, earlier than on a monohull because without a fixed keel there is no ultimate stability except in the upside down mode. Absolutely true. Basically, it means you have a different boat that reacts differently to the conditions. After you're used to it, it's no big deal. 2. Reduce sail proportionately, most of today's cats rely on a powerful mainsail and small, non-lapping headsails. These boats don't respond well under headsail alone and can be overpowered by the main in a gale. A cat mainsail should have three deep reefs and the spar should have a track for a storm trysail. Monos should have just as many reef points. Monos don't respond well in heavy air either when carrying just a jib. 3. As on any boat, but especially in cat, be prepared to release sheets, especially the mainsheet, in an instant. During gales sheets tend to become entangled, so make a point of clearing and coiling them on every watch. Also carefully monitor chafe on all furling lines. "As on any boat..." Nothing different here about monos. 4. Consider your searoom very carefully. Cats make leeway, particularly in big seas and are not close-winded. Avoid trying to make a windward destination that might endanger the boat if you don't quite lay the mark because of excessive leeway. True, but again, this a peculiarity of cats. After you know about it, you can deal with it. 5. Don't forget the engines. Most large cats have twin diesels, well separated and they motor effectively. The engines help keep the stern in the water and can provide a boost for keeping the boat into the wind. I'd say this is an advantage over monos. Cats can also turn on their own axis in very crowded areas. Try that with a 40' mono. 6. In really wild conditions you may have no choice but to run off. In this case, I would want the option of deploying a sea anchor or parachute style anchor. I don't think there is any situation where you would want to lie ahull in a cat. I don't think there are many situations when you'd want to lie ahull in a mono. As to wild conditions, well, sure, this might be an issue. Then again, if you plan properly, it shouldn't come up. You also have the sea anchor and parachute options. 7. If you are new to multihull sailing, don't abandon your monohull instincts. A gale is still a gale, and it is almost always the water that does the damage, not the wind. Ultimately, seamanship is a matter of positioning your boat so that it rides best in the water. Seems like good advice no matter the boat. 8. Don't be afraid to change tactics if what you're trying doesn't work. However, pay close attention to tacking and jibing in heavy weather, these are times the boat is most vulnerable. Again, good advice. True for all boats. 9. Try to avoid overloading the boat. Once a cat is overloaded it loses its advantage of floating on top of the water and becomes sluggish and more of a target for angry seas. This is absolutely true. It's easy to load up a cat with all kinds of crap. I mean it looks like you have plenty of room, and a lot of people are packrats... they just have to have the second TV and the three large suitcases of clothes even though they're in the tropics. Solution: Don't overload. 10. In the end, just as a monohull always needs to carry a liferaft and go-bag when sailing offshore, you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emrgency supplies will be reachable. Actually, and advantage that helps with 9. You don't need to carry a liferaft... saves space and weight. The cat can't sink. So, all you need to do is have things available in case of the ultimately and unlikely event of a capsize. "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... Jon, Scroll down to the bottom of the link she gave and you'll find a list of ten reasons why this type of cruising cat is dangerous enough to make a list like this necessary. You won't find such a list on a monohull site. That should tell you something. S.Simon - a Captain who sails a man's boat "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Bull****. They're great rigs if you understand them. If you overload them, over- or under-canvass them, then they're crap. Some designs are not well thought out and are thus crap. If you sail them beyond your knowledge and skill, they're crap. But, all of this can be said for monohulls as well. It's the sailor, not the boat 99% of the time. "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... Only women and girly men are interested in Catamarans. (Sorry Per!) S.Simon - a Captain who knows multihulls are not real boats "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ |
shopping pains
There are definitely condorams out there. You're right. They're
ugly and dangerous. However, a cat designed, set up for, and provisioned correctly it just as seaworth as a mono.. perhaps more so. "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... True Captains don't abide junk. Those big, ugly cruising catamarans are the SUVs of the boating world. They even roll over like an SUV. They are not worthy to even be considered ocean-going boats. They are for partying at the dock and for motoring around and occasionally sailing in sheltered or coastal waters. S.Simon - the one and only "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:12:59 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote: Only women and girly men are interested in Catamarans. (Sorry Per!) S.Simon - a Captain who knows multihulls are not real boats A true captain is aware and open minded, able to assess situations as they develop Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
That's right. Look at Hunters for example. A load of crap mostly.
They shouldn't be offshore either, at least not without extensive retrofit. "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:26:52 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote: True Captains don't abide junk. Those big, ugly cruising catamarans are the SUVs of the boating world. They even roll over like an SUV. They are not worthy to even be considered ocean-going boats. They are for partying at the dock and for motoring around and occasionally sailing in sheltered or coastal waters. S.Simon - the one and only Ahhh Cappy you fail to distinguish between the different types of boat. There are big unseaworthy monos as well designed only for sitting in the dock and partying. In fact there are quite a few in San Diego that have refrigetation units and generators in what would normally be the engine room. Then there are the fast cruisers in both multi and mono.....you really should bludge a ride sometime so you can speak with at least a little knowledge under the belt. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
But, if it's missing one of those things, it will sink. Of course,
it will be upright on the bottom... "DSK" wrote in message ... "NH_/)_" wrote: .... so when the funds come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is lurking top choice. Reasons 1 will flip ...but does not sink Neither will a monohull with either bulkheads or positive flotation, and if the mono flips it will come back. Absolutely true. Actually, it takes really bad luck and/or stupidity to flip a big cruising cat. Not a realistic concern, you should worry about being struck by a meteor first. 2 more room Depends on how you count 'room.' Most multis suffer from lack of stowage and the extra room is divided up into small compartments. Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. 4 more stable on the water Yep. Definitely a plus there. Down side 1 Costs are high the one we are looking at costs 300K we only have 140K right now so we have to wait for the trust to come available. 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room 3 can't use a windvane 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) 5 poor performance in light air (but you'll probably be motoring anyway) but wait there's more! I always manage to PO the multi fans because I point out the lack of perfection of their craft... of course all boats are a compromise. Personally, aesthetics aside, I don't think cats are a logical choice. For what a big cruising cat costs, you can get & outfit a mono that is bigger, roomier, faster, more seaworthy, with centerboard or lifting keel, and the only thing you gain with the cat is no heeling. Fresh Breezes Doug King |
shopping pains
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... All it takes is realism and common sense. Given ocean miles traveled . . . Fact: Cats capsize more often than monos I'm willing to bet that's not the case. Monos are much more common and they capsize quite often. Happens all the time on the SF bay during races. Fact: Cats stay upside down more often than monos I'd rather be upside down on the surface than rightside up on the bottom. Who needs that" S.Simon "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:34:11 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote: There's no correlation. There are probably about five percent or less multi-hulls cruising the oceans of the world. Raw numbers would make it seem that monohulls suffered more losses but if one works the percentages it is easy to see that catamarans are much much more dangerous. They are a gimmick, a fad, an offshoot from the charter trade where people could care less about sailing. People who charter big cats only want room to party, refrigeration and freezers so they can stuff their faces with food they cooked in their 'gourmet galleys". They'd be far better of on a cruise ship, for gawd's sake. S.Simon - a Captain who knows cruising You're talking thru your hat.....again! Do me a favour, before you broach the subject again do some research on the multis lost in recent years....after the designs were sorted. Remember Cappy they haven't been around all that long. You're relying on bar talk and rumour, you have absolutely no basis for the BS you've trotted out. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
And, I've heard the opposite. I've know skippers who've
never had anyone get sick on cat deliveries, but have been sick themselves on mono deliveries. I think it's a matter of what you're used to not a matter of the boat itself. "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Personally, aesthetics aside, I don't think cats are a logical choice. For what a big cruising cat costs, you can get & outfit a mono that is bigger, roomier, faster, more seaworthy, with centerboard or lifting keel, and the only thing you gain with the cat is no heeling. I have a friend who's delievered several (4) big cats transatlantic. With experienced crews, he said the motion of the cats was horrible and some seasoned sailors got sea sick for the 1st time in their lives. He feels they are best as coastal cruisers and not true sea boats. RB |
shopping pains
I've raced on F-24s. They're nimble, quick, and dry (except for
the beer). They are expensive, however. "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Get a folding trimaran like the Corsair. Then you can use one slip. They're still expensive. However, the tris are faster than cats and they point higher. There's a 28 foot Cosair near me, Say what you want, but those people have a blast on that thing and get everywhere 1st. RB |
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I've seen several of them here. They did fine in the last major storm..
winds over 70kts. They didn't fall over in their slips. "The Captains Master" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:18:34 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote: Get a folding trimaran like the Corsair. Then you can use one slip. They're still expensive. However, the tris are faster than cats and they point higher. You can also haul them behind a car if you need to... Whaaaaat! You've actually seen a folding tri folded in its slip? They have no keel and will just fall over. Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
shopping pains
I think they're totally cool when the fold or unfold.
"katysails" wrote in message ... Whaaaaat! You've actually seen a folding tri folded in its slip? They have no keel and will just fall over. Guy who used to have a Corsair at the former marina left it partly folded...had to rasie the amas to get past the mooring posts..once in he'd let her stretch out a bit,. Looked like a Klingon Bird of Prey sitting there partially folded.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
shopping pains
Yep. That's true. They're not much for more than a weekend or so,
until you get over 35 feet. Then, they seem to have just about the same amount of room as a mono and the outer hulls start to have usable storage, though you do have to watch the weight in them. "Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Get a folding trimaran like the Corsair. Then you can use one slip. They're still expensive. However, the tris are faster than cats and they point higher. You can also haul them behind a car if you need to... All the folding tri's that I have seen have lousy accommodation. The centre hull tends to be much narrower than a mono, and the outer hulls have no accommodation at all. They seem a bit "specialist" to me. Regards Donal -- |
shopping pains
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... More downsides: 1) It won't go to weather worth a crap Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster slightly off the wind and get there first. 2) It's uglier than sin Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission Why's that? 4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink. 5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold, since the weight isn't that great. 6) Two motors equals twice the headaches And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange, so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look, found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was still easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying. Not a big deal. 7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be. 8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get It's expensive... damn true. 9) Did I say it's uglier than sin? No. 10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of "Oops! there goes the neighborhood!" BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have a million questions about how it sails and handles. S.Simon "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... papers on the trust are taking longer than expected. So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is lurking top choice. Reasons 1 will flip ...but does not sink 2 more room 3 sails in shallow water 4 more stable on the water Down side 1 Costs are high the one we are looking at costs 300K we only have 140K right now so we have to wait for the trust to come available. 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room NH_/)_ "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range You still haven't bought a boat? You probably never will. RB |
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And that will get him off big time!
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... And, I'll stuff fenders up your exhausts. Harrrrhhhh! "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... Simon I'm going to take at least 40K and buy a nice twin motor powerboat. Find where your mooring and get one right beside you, wait until your asleep and let that baby rip those twin engines theheee NH_/)_ "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... More downsides: 1) It won't go to weather worth a crap 2) It's uglier than sin 3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission 4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink 5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor 6) Two motors equals twice the headaches 7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat 8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get 9) Did I say it's uglier than sin? 10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of "Oops! there goes the neighborhood!" S.Simon "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... papers on the trust are taking longer than expected. So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is lurking top choice. Reasons 1 will flip ...but does not sink 2 more room 3 sails in shallow water 4 more stable on the water Down side 1 Costs are high the one we are looking at costs 300K we only have 140K right now so we have to wait for the trust to come available. 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room NH_/)_ "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range You still haven't bought a boat? You probably never will. RB |
shopping pains
The Captains Master wrote:
Cappy tell me what you know about VMG. The only thing the Craptoon knows about VMG is that he doesn't like British sports cars DSK |
shopping pains
How about some real negatives for catamarans. I can think
of several. 1. They are easily overloaded. It looks like you can put all your crap on them, but looks are deceiving.. unless you plan on sitting at the dock all of the time. Put your crap in storage or sell it and go sailing. 2. You need to learn how to reef and do it! Typical example. We're sailing on a Seawind 1000 in the bay. People are chatting, eating lunch, having some champagne (really!). They put their drinks down and use the head or whatever, and when they return. The champagne glass is still where they put it. I'm driving, tweaking the sails, giving some small lesson in this or that, not really paying all that much attention to the wind or conditions. Then, I notice that there are really a lot of white caps. Yikes, the wind speed (true not apparent) is well over 30kts. In fact, I'm seeing gusts to 35. We've got the fully battened main up all the way! Time to reef... glad we did. The boat seemed to be handling it well, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Sailing a cat can be deceptive... you have to watch the conditions and react early. 3. You have to know how to anchor and there are specific differences between cats and monos. Cats require a bridle to anchor or moor properly. Typically, the bridle should be all set up and ready to go well before you need it, so you don't have to fumble around. 4. You need to be more in tune with the environment when sailing a cat. There is virtually no heel, so it's hard to tell if the boat is sailing optimally. There is much less of a "groove," so you have to really get the feel of sailing them before you can do it in a serious way. 5. Tacking can be more difficult if you're not used to it. Quick tacks from a beam reach won't work well or at all. You need to "sneak up on it," then turn decisively. Beginners tend to stall the boat during tacks. You have to learn to let the boat do the work and how to get out of irons. It's different on a cat vs. a mono. Typical example... I was again on the SW1000 only this time it was third or fourth time. We tacked and the boat stalled in irons during the tack. We were doing well over 10 kts until that moment. We just waited a few seconds, the boat started to back, I eased the main and off we went on the new tack... back to 10 kts in short order. In some respects it was a faster turn than sneaking up on it and tacking, but it is a strange feeling to have a boat stop, then shoot off like a rocket from a standing start. Other real ones? "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... More downsides: 1) It won't go to weather worth a crap Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster slightly off the wind and get there first. 2) It's uglier than sin Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission Why's that? 4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink. 5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold, since the weight isn't that great. 6) Two motors equals twice the headaches And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange, so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look, found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was still easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying. Not a big deal. 7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be. 8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get It's expensive... damn true. 9) Did I say it's uglier than sin? No. 10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of "Oops! there goes the neighborhood!" BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have a million questions about how it sails and handles. S.Simon "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... papers on the trust are taking longer than expected. So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is lurking top choice. Reasons 1 will flip ...but does not sink 2 more room 3 sails in shallow water 4 more stable on the water Down side 1 Costs are high the one we are looking at costs 300K we only have 140K right now so we have to wait for the trust to come available. 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room NH_/)_ "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range You still haven't bought a boat? You probably never will. RB |
shopping pains
I was curious about your "bridle" comment. My boat has a roller on each bow and thus gets
bridled from the opposite bow. I've experimented with several fancy methods, but now I just tie a rolling hitch with a dockline. A spare line stays on the bow for this purpose. I've tried using a "slippery" rolling hitch, but on occasion its fallen out - the standard knot has always held. Without the bridle the boat sits cocked to the wind. This is OK (for a short time)for anchoring, but on my boat a mooring pennant will rub against the anchor, so I have to bridle quickly. The time to setup, or recover the bridle is short, maybe a few minutes. It is, however, a pain if its coupled with resetting the anchor, so I'll usually wait 10 minutes before bridling to make sure we're set and in the right place. Double anchoring raises the pain level, since both anchors should be bridled. If the boat spins in the night the result can be (as one friend calls it) a "chocolate mess." However, as long as its only one or two twists it isn't too bad. As I've mentioned before, a major advantage of the bridle is that it eliminates chafe, because it moves the pivot point of the rode to where the bridle connects. There is very little movement of the rode in the roller or chock. Some cats have the rode coming out under the center of the foredeck. If there is limited access, this can be a serious problem. One cat reviewer, Chuck Kanter, considers this a fatal flaw in some cats. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... How about some real negatives for catamarans. I can think of several. 1. They are easily overloaded. It looks like you can put all your crap on them, but looks are deceiving.. unless you plan on sitting at the dock all of the time. Put your crap in storage or sell it and go sailing. 2. You need to learn how to reef and do it! Typical example. We're sailing on a Seawind 1000 in the bay. People are chatting, eating lunch, having some champagne (really!). They put their drinks down and use the head or whatever, and when they return. The champagne glass is still where they put it. I'm driving, tweaking the sails, giving some small lesson in this or that, not really paying all that much attention to the wind or conditions. Then, I notice that there are really a lot of white caps. Yikes, the wind speed (true not apparent) is well over 30kts. In fact, I'm seeing gusts to 35. We've got the fully battened main up all the way! Time to reef... glad we did. The boat seemed to be handling it well, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Sailing a cat can be deceptive... you have to watch the conditions and react early. 3. You have to know how to anchor and there are specific differences between cats and monos. Cats require a bridle to anchor or moor properly. Typically, the bridle should be all set up and ready to go well before you need it, so you don't have to fumble around. 4. You need to be more in tune with the environment when sailing a cat. There is virtually no heel, so it's hard to tell if the boat is sailing optimally. There is much less of a "groove," so you have to really get the feel of sailing them before you can do it in a serious way. 5. Tacking can be more difficult if you're not used to it. Quick tacks from a beam reach won't work well or at all. You need to "sneak up on it," then turn decisively. Beginners tend to stall the boat during tacks. You have to learn to let the boat do the work and how to get out of irons. It's different on a cat vs. a mono. Typical example... I was again on the SW1000 only this time it was third or fourth time. We tacked and the boat stalled in irons during the tack. We were doing well over 10 kts until that moment. We just waited a few seconds, the boat started to back, I eased the main and off we went on the new tack... back to 10 kts in short order. In some respects it was a faster turn than sneaking up on it and tacking, but it is a strange feeling to have a boat stop, then shoot off like a rocket from a standing start. Other real ones? "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... More downsides: 1) It won't go to weather worth a crap Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster slightly off the wind and get there first. 2) It's uglier than sin Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission Why's that? 4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink. 5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold, since the weight isn't that great. 6) Two motors equals twice the headaches And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange, so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look, found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was still easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying. Not a big deal. 7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be. 8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get It's expensive... damn true. 9) Did I say it's uglier than sin? No. 10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of "Oops! there goes the neighborhood!" BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have a million questions about how it sails and handles. S.Simon "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... papers on the trust are taking longer than expected. So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is lurking top choice. Reasons 1 will flip ...but does not sink 2 more room 3 sails in shallow water 4 more stable on the water Down side 1 Costs are high the one we are looking at costs 300K we only have 140K right now so we have to wait for the trust to come available. 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room NH_/)_ "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range You still haven't bought a boat? You probably never will. RB |
shopping pains
The boats I've been on haven't had rollers on the bows. They've
had them on the center line. I use the rolling hitch. Usually set it, then deploy the bridle pretty quickly... same issue, reduce chafe. "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... I was curious about your "bridle" comment. My boat has a roller on each bow and thus gets bridled from the opposite bow. I've experimented with several fancy methods, but now I just tie a rolling hitch with a dockline. A spare line stays on the bow for this purpose. I've tried using a "slippery" rolling hitch, but on occasion its fallen out - the standard knot has always held. Without the bridle the boat sits cocked to the wind. This is OK (for a short time)for anchoring, but on my boat a mooring pennant will rub against the anchor, so I have to bridle quickly. The time to setup, or recover the bridle is short, maybe a few minutes. It is, however, a pain if its coupled with resetting the anchor, so I'll usually wait 10 minutes before bridling to make sure we're set and in the right place. Double anchoring raises the pain level, since both anchors should be bridled. If the boat spins in the night the result can be (as one friend calls it) a "chocolate mess." However, as long as its only one or two twists it isn't too bad. As I've mentioned before, a major advantage of the bridle is that it eliminates chafe, because it moves the pivot point of the rode to where the bridle connects. There is very little movement of the rode in the roller or chock. Some cats have the rode coming out under the center of the foredeck. If there is limited access, this can be a serious problem. One cat reviewer, Chuck Kanter, considers this a fatal flaw in some cats. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... How about some real negatives for catamarans. I can think of several. 1. They are easily overloaded. It looks like you can put all your crap on them, but looks are deceiving.. unless you plan on sitting at the dock all of the time. Put your crap in storage or sell it and go sailing. 2. You need to learn how to reef and do it! Typical example. We're sailing on a Seawind 1000 in the bay. People are chatting, eating lunch, having some champagne (really!). They put their drinks down and use the head or whatever, and when they return. The champagne glass is still where they put it. I'm driving, tweaking the sails, giving some small lesson in this or that, not really paying all that much attention to the wind or conditions. Then, I notice that there are really a lot of white caps. Yikes, the wind speed (true not apparent) is well over 30kts. In fact, I'm seeing gusts to 35. We've got the fully battened main up all the way! Time to reef... glad we did. The boat seemed to be handling it well, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Sailing a cat can be deceptive... you have to watch the conditions and react early. 3. You have to know how to anchor and there are specific differences between cats and monos. Cats require a bridle to anchor or moor properly. Typically, the bridle should be all set up and ready to go well before you need it, so you don't have to fumble around. 4. You need to be more in tune with the environment when sailing a cat. There is virtually no heel, so it's hard to tell if the boat is sailing optimally. There is much less of a "groove," so you have to really get the feel of sailing them before you can do it in a serious way. 5. Tacking can be more difficult if you're not used to it. Quick tacks from a beam reach won't work well or at all. You need to "sneak up on it," then turn decisively. Beginners tend to stall the boat during tacks. You have to learn to let the boat do the work and how to get out of irons. It's different on a cat vs. a mono. Typical example... I was again on the SW1000 only this time it was third or fourth time. We tacked and the boat stalled in irons during the tack. We were doing well over 10 kts until that moment. We just waited a few seconds, the boat started to back, I eased the main and off we went on the new tack... back to 10 kts in short order. In some respects it was a faster turn than sneaking up on it and tacking, but it is a strange feeling to have a boat stop, then shoot off like a rocket from a standing start. Other real ones? "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... More downsides: 1) It won't go to weather worth a crap Not true. They pretty much match monos. Not all monos, but you don't need to point high most of the time anyway. You can go faster slightly off the wind and get there first. 2) It's uglier than sin Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 3) If your built-in generator takes a crap you're out of commission Why's that? 4) It'll capsize and stay capsized and it can and will sink True, true, and false. Cat's don't sink. 5) It's a pain in the butt to anchor Easy as pie. I've never had trouble. You can ground it to work on it. You don't need a huge anchor, chrome or otherwise, to hold, since the weight isn't that great. 6) Two motors equals twice the headaches And half the worries. If one dies, you've got a backup. We were in Belize with no wind one day, one engine was sounding strange, so without missing a beat, we turned it off, pulled it up, had a look, found the problem, put it back down, and started it. Never missed beat. Also had one die on me in the Sauslito channel right in front of a brig that was trying to dock.. lot's of traffic behind. It was still easy to motor out of the way, then we futzed with it and started it up again. I ended up docking without it anyway, since it kept dying. Not a big deal. 7) It's a better motorboat than a sailboat It's a better motorboat than a mono if you need it to be. 8) It's way way way too expensive for what you get It's expensive... damn true. 9) Did I say it's uglier than sin? No. 10) Real cruisers will laugh at you and won't want to be anywhere near you in an anchorage. It's a case of "Oops! there goes the neighborhood!" BS. They appreciate the accomodations and usually have a million questions about how it sails and handles. S.Simon "NH_/)_" wrote in message ... papers on the trust are taking longer than expected. So while we wait, I am grabbing all knowledge that I can from this and other groups, sites and such, so when the funds come in, we know what we want. and the cat right now is lurking top choice. Reasons 1 will flip ...but does not sink 2 more room 3 sails in shallow water 4 more stable on the water Down side 1 Costs are high the one we are looking at costs 300K we only have 140K right now so we have to wait for the trust to come available. 2 mooring can be more difficult--finding room NH_/)_ "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range You still haven't bought a boat? You probably never will. RB |
shopping pains
Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff.
made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
Not to jump on Jeff's toes, but there are many production cats
out there... many many. There are a lot of custom ones also. Good point about the cost.. that's a definite negative. Also, the inexpensive ones to be found have to be looked at very carefully, as they may be fatally flawed during construction or aging. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For
instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if
it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
Your not answering me , I'm not Trolling LOL
just curious is all, My husband wants us to have diesel as well. Thanks NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
Yes, I know what you mean. I worked at the Irwin Yacht
yard in Clearwater, FL for a year and we always hated it when buyers came snooping around with their ignorant suggestions and last-minute changes based on nothing but a whim. What other reason would bring an Irwin buyer around. Those POS boats were usually bought on a whim to begin with. How fitting that you had a hand in their construction! RB |
shopping pains
Diesel Pros:
more reliable more power high output alternator much quieter safer fuel much better economy hot water heater Outboard Pros: Less weight Less drag (they can be lifted) You lose cockpit lockers, but can space below they can be easily removed for replacement you can carry a third as spare or dinghy engine lower cost The biggest thing against the outboards is the lack of electrical generation. We would have needed some type of genset - either an gas portable, or a built in diesel. The adds a third engine to maintain, and in the latter case we would then have would need to carry two types of fuel. My second thoughts usually center around the newer very quiet gas gensets from Honda, the fact that the price difference would have bought at lot of solar panels and wind generators, and did we really need a freezer? On the other hand, the dull roar of a diesel loafing along is a lot easier to take than the scream of an outboard working hard. -jeff "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
Thanks Jeff
NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Diesel Pros: more reliable more power high output alternator much quieter safer fuel much better economy hot water heater Outboard Pros: Less weight Less drag (they can be lifted) You lose cockpit lockers, but can space below they can be easily removed for replacement you can carry a third as spare or dinghy engine lower cost The biggest thing against the outboards is the lack of electrical generation. We would have needed some type of genset - either an gas portable, or a built in diesel. The adds a third engine to maintain, and in the latter case we would then have would need to carry two types of fuel. My second thoughts usually center around the newer very quiet gas gensets from Honda, the fact that the price difference would have bought at lot of solar panels and wind generators, and did we really need a freezer? On the other hand, the dull roar of a diesel loafing along is a lot easier to take than the scream of an outboard working hard. -jeff "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
S.S. you have some serious issues, Any boat is nicer than yours
with new sails and bent cheap 13m boom theeheh. NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... Comments interspersed. (For both NH_/)_ and Jeffy-po.) "Jeff Morris wannabe Master" wrote: My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Definitely the correct choice for a motorboater like youself. Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. Real smart move, Jeff. Put all the weight of freezer compressor and a nice full box right smack dab at the rear of your boat where the weight can be a detriment. I can tell your priorities and the reason your tummy is rather large. You use your boat as a floating eatery. Shame, shame! After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. Lavac, yes, that's the large head isn't it. I suppose with an ass the size of yours one of the standard small heads just wouldn't work. And a microwave? Bwahahahaha! More catering to the immediate desires of that extended tummy. What were the special instructions to the sailmaker? Make 'em as cheap as possible because they're just for show anyway? The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. Yes, I know what you mean. I worked at the Irwin Yacht yard in Clearwater, FL for a year and we always hated it when buyers came snooping around with their ignorant suggestions and last-minute changes based on nothing but a whim. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. A year-long backlog means the factory needs to hire an efficiency expert. Something is wrong. Probably it's a matter of too many factory personnel out in the field doing warranty repairs because of shoddy production practices. My advice, next time, get a monohull. But quality used and maintained by one loving owner who has worked out all the bugs, bought all top-notch equipment and fittings and sailed sparingly. Anytime you buy something new you take a real beating especially the first year when resale value vs. price paid is often 30 or 40 percent lower. You are the typical, ignorant, gotta-have-a-new-one consumer who drives the economy but, in doing so, throws his hard-earned dollars away. S.Simon - who has never and will never buy a new boat because new is stupid. |
shopping pains
Hey, give me a break! You workers have nothing better to do than sit around your computer
and chat. Us "retired" folk actually have a life! I was busy calling in my unemployment insurance! "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Your not answering me , I'm not Trolling LOL just curious is all, My husband wants us to have diesel as well. Thanks NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
"NH_/\)_" wrote in message m...
Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ Hey NH_/), Did you read the last line of the link you posted? "you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emergency supplies will be reachable" In other words you are stopped, upside down, and just flosum. Never happen on a well buildt monohull. I also like the line "you better be able to release your mainsheet in an instant." So True, and the real danger of a cat. If you buy a cat you better be faster than the wind. SO.......If you value your life stay away from cats, unless your just a weekend warrior in the local bay or lake with someone looking out 4U. Capt. American |
shopping pains
Another poster with a complex yipppppeeeee
NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "NH_/\)_" wrote in message m... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ Hey NH_/), Did you read the last line of the link you posted? "you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emergency supplies will be reachable" In other words you are stopped, upside down, and just flosum. Never happen on a well buildt monohull. I also like the line "you better be able to release your mainsheet in an instant." So True, and the real danger of a cat. If you buy a cat you better be faster than the wind. SO.......If you value your life stay away from cats, unless your just a weekend warrior in the local bay or lake with someone looking out 4U. Capt. American |
shopping pains
On the other hand, the dull roar of a diesel loafing along is a lot easier to
take than the scream of an outboard working hard. Keep in mind the resale...far easier and better with the diesel IB engines. Every boat is a "stepping stone" to the next...and then you die. RB |
shopping pains
Typical Democrat - suck the system for all it's worth then
lobby for higher taxes so it'll be worth even more. Never think about going to work and earning a living for once. . . Let the rest of us pay your way. "Jeff Morris" wrote the following disgusting drivel I was busy calling in my unemployment insurance! |
shopping pains
Thank you for reiterating the obvious. But, trying to make
multi-hull buyers see the obvious is about as difficult as making a pig stay away from his slop. My only hope is they remember our words as they suffer and waste away in an upside down multihull adrift till they starve or die of exposure. S.Simon "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "NH_/\)_" wrote in message m... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ Hey NH_/), Did you read the last line of the link you posted? "you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emergency supplies will be reachable" In other words you are stopped, upside down, and just flosum. Never happen on a well buildt monohull. I also like the line "you better be able to release your mainsheet in an instant." So True, and the real danger of a cat. If you buy a cat you better be faster than the wind. SO.......If you value your life stay away from cats, unless your just a weekend warrior in the local bay or lake with someone looking out 4U. Capt. American |
shopping pains
"Simple Simon" wrote in message Yes, I know what you mean. I worked at the Irwin Yacht yard in Clearwater, FL for a year and we always hated it when buyers came snooping around with their ignorant suggestions and last-minute changes based on nothing but a whim. It was my experiance with an eight year old Irwin that led me to always want a quality young boat. The Irwin was an incredible POS, and we would joke about what major component might fall off next. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. A year-long backlog means the factory needs to hire an efficiency expert. Something is wrong. Probably it's a matter of too many factory personnel out in the field doing warranty repairs because of shoddy production practices. No, its a small shop where a good review or boatshow can generate a few extra sales. They would probably like to stay at 6 month backlog. ... Anytime you buy something new you take a real beating especially the first year when resale value vs. price paid is often 30 or 40 percent lower. You are the typical, ignorant, gotta-have-a-new-one consumer who drives the economy but, in doing so, throws his hard-earned dollars away. That's a complete myth - I could probably still get roughly 90% of my purchase price. Two years after I bought and had put 8000 miles on the boat I was offered 105% - the backlog was high that season. And who says my dollars were hard earned? -jeff |
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