mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

Scotty

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
For sailboats it's one prolonged blast followed by one short.
But, if you're motoring as the poster was, then you must sound
the motor boat signal which consists on one prolonged blast.

A sailboat becomes a motorboat when it's using its engine.

S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing


"fraggy" wrote in message
...
hiya
I thought that the blast at 2 min intervals if you are a sailing vessel
you
make 1 long blast followed by 1 short ?

fragged



"Steve" wrote in message
om...
While motoring last week we encountered thick fog and I requested a
crew member to sound a 5 second blast every minute. My thinking being
that the colregs specify an interval of not more than 2 minutes and
shorter would be better in a busy harbour entrance.

The skipper later said that I should have specified an interval of 2
minutes. A quick Google shows that the interval is sometimes quoted as
2 minutes, although I know that the colregs do say 'not greater than 2
minutes'.

Any thoughts ? Is exactly 2 minutes advisable for any reason ? Is 1
minute potentially confusing ?

Thanks

Steve

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


A simple memory aid:

One prolonged blast (power underway)- moving (one word)

Two prolonged blasts (underway, no way on - adrift) - not moving (two
words)

One prolonged blast, 2 short blasts - Almost all others (three words)

All within two minutes.

There are other requires sounds (ringing bells for anchored vessels),
but the memory aid covers most situations encountered by most
recreational sailors.

Jack

__________________________________________________
Jack Dale
Swiftsure Sailing Academy
Director/ISPA and CYA Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
Phone: 1 (877) 470-SAIL (toll free)
__________________________________________________

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail
if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


A simple memory aid:

One prolonged blast (power underway)- moving (one word)

Two prolonged blasts (underway, no way on - adrift) - not moving (two
words)

One prolonged blast, 2 short blasts - Almost all others (three words)


Well it is even more logical than that. Two long is morse M which has the
meaning 'my vessel is stoppped and making no way through the water'

long short short is morse D which has the meaning 'my vessel is restricted
in its ability to manoeuvre ....'.

The signals have those same meanings by sound or light in good visibility.

The 'normal' rules only apply to vessels within sight of each other, ie NOT
just detected on radar or heard. So it is a completely different game in
restricted vis. in a sense it is therefore true that there is no pecking
order but it is obviously desirable to know if you are dealing with a power
vessel that can manoeuvre easily or one that cannot.

Thanks for the comments above; I take the point about varying the interval
in case you are exactly overlapping an automatic system. However, giving an
inexperienced crewmember a watch and precise instructions is easier than
requesting some wobble !

Steve
(OP - different machine)

For example wrote:

Well it is even more logical than that. Two long is morse M which has the
meaning 'my vessel is stoppped and making no way through the water'

long short short is morse D which has the meaning 'my vessel is restricted
in its ability to manoeuvre ....'.

Not quite, D actually means "I am manoeuvring with difficulty" which
is not exactly the same thing. But similar, I'll grant you.

But the single long blast, T, means "I am engaged in pair trawling".

I think that knocks your theory on its head.

Jack Dale wrote:
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs
sail if there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


Which pecking order is that? The one defined in the section titled "Conduct of Vessels in
Sight of One Another"?

Subject: Fog signal frequency
From: Jack Dale
Date: 09/01/2003 21:49 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


G OK, Jack, ....Same question to you I've put to others on this issue.
If a RAM, NUC, sail, fishing, and powerdriven vessel (engaged in towing), all
make the same signal, in fog, ..... how can there be a pecking order, as exist
in clear visibility?

Shen

liked the memory aid

It's clear that's there's an abreviated pecking order in
restricted visibility. The full pecking order is there but
in the background. It comes out of the background the
instant vessels in restricted visibility come withing sight
of each other visually. The different fog signals allow
vessels to be aware of the pecking order and be
ready to heed the in-sight rules which may come into
play. This realization of status means a pecking order
always exists though Rules concerning it in detail may
not be in immediate play.

The fact that vessels eventually come in sight if they
remain on a collision course for too long means they
had damned better well be aware of their status in
the pecking order especially if they are a motor boat
which is the lowliest form of vessel (except seaplane)
in the scheme of things.


S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing

"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Fog signal frequency
From: Jack Dale
Date: 09/01/2003 21:49 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


G OK, Jack, ....Same question to you I've put to others on this issue.
If a RAM, NUC, sail, fishing, and powerdriven vessel (engaged in towing), all
make the same signal, in fog, ..... how can there be a pecking order, as exist
in clear visibility?

Shen

liked the memory aid

ROFL I've enjoyed watching you reword your responses to this over time,
in a vain attempt to qualify your statement.
However, for those of us who have run in thick fog, where you never see
the other guy no matter how close you get, and keeping the issue to that
simple premise .... while you are in fog, there is NO pecking order
regarding "stand-on" "giveway".....what it's all about.
Now, to play your game, does this signal give a hint as to the fact you
may not be dealing with a simple powerdriven vessel? Of course. But,
does it in any way tell you how you may have to maneuver? No....
insufficient information, and even YOU know one must not make decisions
based on "scanty" information.

otn

Simple Simon wrote:

It's clear that's there's an abreviated pecking order in
restricted visibility. The full pecking order is there but
in the background. It comes out of the background the
instant vessels in restricted visibility come withing sight
of each other visually. The different fog signals allow
vessels to be aware of the pecking order and be
ready to heed the in-sight rules which may come into
play. This realization of status means a pecking order
always exists though Rules concerning it in detail may
not be in immediate play.

The fact that vessels eventually come in sight if they
remain on a collision course for too long means they
had damned better well be aware of their status in
the pecking order especially if they are a motor boat
which is the lowliest form of vessel (except seaplane)
in the scheme of things.


S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing

"Shen44" wrote in message ...

Subject: Fog signal frequency
From: Jack Dale
Date: 09/01/2003 21:49 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:


mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


G OK, Jack, ....Same question to you I've put to others on this issue.
If a RAM, NUC, sail, fishing, and powerdriven vessel (engaged in towing), all
make the same signal, in fog, ..... how can there be a pecking order, as exist
in clear visibility?

Shen

liked the memory aid

"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...
ROFL I've enjoyed watching you reword your responses to this over time,
in a vain attempt to qualify your statement.
However, for those of us who have run in thick fog, where you never see
the other guy no matter how close you get, and keeping the issue to that
simple premise .... while you are in fog, there is NO pecking order
regarding "stand-on" "giveway".....what it's all about.
Now, to play your game, does this signal give a hint as to the fact you
may not be dealing with a simple powerdriven vessel? Of course. But,
does it in any way tell you how you may have to maneuver? No....
insufficient information, and even YOU know one must not make decisions
based on "scanty" information.

Listening to the fog signal most certainly may give you information
on how to maneuver. For example, you are operating a motor boat.
You hear dead ahead of you one prolonged blast/ two short blasts.
You slow down some more. Two minutes you hear the same signal
but now it's bearing approx 350 degrees. Two minutes later you hear it
bearing approx 340 degrees. You don't have to assume, you know
the vessel has crossed your path but and unless it is very very long or
is a towboat with a very very long hawser that it would be you may
be clear. You assume the worst case scenario that it is a towboat
with a hawser a quarter mile long so you slow down even more and
turn 30 degrees to starboard.

Now, tell me you aren't the give way vessel.

S.Simon - a Captain who's familiar with the intricacies of the Rules

Comments interspersed.

Simple Simon wrote:


Listening to the fog signal most certainly may give you information
on how to maneuver. For example, you are operating a motor boat.
You hear dead ahead of you one prolonged blast/ two short blasts.
You slow down some more. Two minutes you hear the same signal
but now it's bearing approx 350 degrees. Two minutes later you hear it
bearing approx 340 degrees.

With a fog signal, it would be very hard to locate the bearing of the
signal this closely .... something you still fail to understand. It will
take a good deal of time, just using the sound, to get an actual feel
for direction of movement of the other vessel, unless they are traveling
at a good rate of speed, and even then it will take awhile .... hence
the reason for slowing to bare steerage or stopping.


You don't have to assume,

Never Assume.
you know
the vessel has crossed your path but and unless it is very very long or
is a towboat with a very very long hawser that it would be you may
be clear. You assume the worst case scenario that it is a towboat
with a hawser a quarter mile long so you slow down even more and
turn 30 degrees to starboard.

I would consider 30 degrees in zero visibility, too little..... better
to stop and let them clear astern or at least abaft the beam.

Now, tell me you aren't the give way vessel.

Course you are and so is the other guy. There is NO stand-on status in
fog nor pecking order, nor one vessel which must consider itself the
sole "giveway" vessel, based on sound signals. ALL vessels are required
to maneuver in the same way, to the extent possible for their condition,
if at all. IOW you on your sailboat, must reduce speed to that necessary
to keep yourself on course, or stop and at any rate navigate with
extreme caution, until the danger has passed ... no special treatment
.....if you're NUC, you sit there and pray.

S.Simon - a Captain who's unfamiliar with the intricacies of the Rules



otn