Let there be Nav. Light
 

I did not "infer" anything I simple repeated what you
stated in your original post which was wrong! You wrote:

"Let me amplify that the masthead "tricolor" should only be in addition to the sidelights."

I have just proven that a sailboat that has no motor installed does
not need those sidelights and that steaming light because it is never
a motor boat. You say the opposite for the whole world to see.
You wrote that a tricolor "should ONLY be in addition to the sidelights".

How can any light(s) be in addition to something that is not there in the
first place as on a motorless sailboat with tricolor only which is a
totally legal proposition according to the Rules?

Here's the remainder of your erroneous post:

"Let me amplify that the masthead "tricolor" should only be in addition to the sidelights.
While the tricolor is legal for a sailboat, it is NOT for a powerboat. The "masthead
light," commonly called the "steaming light" and mounted partway up the mast on a
sailboat, must be at least one meter above the sidelights. The wording is a bit obtuse,
but I believe that the sidelights can be no higher than 2.5 meters above the gunwale.

"The tricolor on the mast is fine if you're offshore and want to be seen through the swells
by a distant ship, but I think you'd be more concerned powering into you marina on a dark
night."

You are wrong and Shen44 is wrong and now along comes
otnmbird again to chime in with his lame comments. You guys
must be Siamese triplets or something. Maybe you should all
get an operation to separate yourselves???

You repeatedly demonstrate a motorboat mentality and
sincerely feel that every sailboat has an auxiliary so it
is really a motor boat. This is not always the case so
your misconception continue to cause dangerous
situations on the water.

S.Simon



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
You may have inferred that I was talking about using both sets at the same time, but I
never implied it.

Your babbling doesn't make any sense - if the engine is not running and the sails are up,
it makes no difference howmuch wind there is, its a sailboat and therefore can use the
lights for sailboats. And a boat the has no engine, or never uses it, or is never
underway when lights are required, does not need sidelights under the ColRegs.

My advice was specifically to Bobsprit. Now if you're chastising me for inferring that RB
would actually use his engine when making a night entrance to his marina, that's a
different discussion.

Your trying to claim that I said something I didn't - I don't think anyone is buying it
and your opinion isn't anything I'm going to loose sleep over.


"Simple Simon"
wrote in message ...
Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

One could use EITHER the tricolor OR the normal
running lights and not both as Jeff stated (or at least
implied).

Now, what if the sailboat was using machinery? This
cannot be because a sailboat is no longer a sailboat
the moment it uses machinery even if the sails are
up and drawing. Therefore it must use motorboat
lights which are the lower running lights "in addition
to" the steaming light (sometimes called a masthead
light though it is lower down on the mast).

Now we come to the $64,000 question. What if the
sailboat was underway but not making way and had
her sails up but there was no wind? Furthermore,
she is a pure sailboat and had nomotor installed.

Would she be required to have
the lower set of running lights? No, she would not
because she could never be a motor boat. Therefore
both you and Jeff are wrong in your stupid insistence
that sailboats must have lower running lights "in addition
to" a tricolor.

Gotcha!!!!


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 11:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Your wording was more than a "tad vague", it was clearly wrong.

See my reply to your good buddy Shenn44 and then be man
enough to admit that what you wrote is very misleading and clearly
incorrect. I got you this time. I know you are loathe to admit
it but I got you this time. He he!


G What he wrote could be considered "misleading" to someone such as yourself,
incapable of connecting two thoughts to create a whole.
If you'd read all of his statement (looked before you leapt) you would have
realized he was talking about powerdriven sailboats who used the tricolor light
when not powerdriven...... a sailboat which uses a tricolor light will have, in
addition, normal side lights when powerdriven and turn off the tricolor light
and employ a masthead light.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Wrong again, Shen44. As soon as the lookout relays
to the bridge that he has a vessel in sight, and he must
do so immediately, then the vessels are in sight. Period,
end of sentence. Any lookout is a legal and binding
extension of the eyes and ears on the bridge. (Yes,
and even if the bridge is asleep which is not a rare
event.)


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"

LOL Let's see how many errors we can find!!!!

Now you have to resort to putting false words in my mouth.

I never said a sailboat should not slow down or even stop
if it heard fog signals dead ahead. What I said is a sailboat
does not have to slow down in a fog according to the Rules
when it does not hear a fog signal dead ahead on a collision
course.

"Wrong" EVERY VESSEL shall procede at a safe speed .... that means
sailboats
too .... if safe speed is only 1knot then you need to slow down if you are
doing 6 knots.

Like I stated. Sailboats like mine already travel at a safe speed.
They cannot travel any faster than a safe speed. If they traveled
any slower they would lose maneuverability and that would
be, by definition, an unsafe speed. Safe speed cannot be
one knot because that would mean loss of maneuverability.

"Wrong" If you hit the side of a ship, traveling at "hull speed", then you were
moving too fast for the conditions.
The question of maneuverability as you state it, applies to powerdriven as well
as sail....and is a bogus argument. G most sailboats can effectively steer at
much slower speeds than can some ship.


I said a sailboat is already meeting the definition of
going slow because as we all know there is rarely very much
wind in a fog

Not always true, so you have to consider the "prevailing circumstances"
(Been
in zero visibility with 25k winds)

Even in twenty five knots of wind a sailboat like mine is still
constrained by her hull speed of around 6.7 knots and will
probably be going slower because of the necessity to reef
down sail area.

So?


The only vessels that are required to slow down in a fog even
if they do not hear a fog signal on a collision course are motor
vessels sounding the signal for motor vessels.

"Wrong" .... G see above

Right, by definition any vessel that is already proceeding at
a safe speed is proceeding slowly enoug.

Not necessarily.... but then again, you don't understand "safe speed"

They are required
to slow down to a safe speed.

"Wrong" They are required to "Proceed at a Safe Speed" (here's an area open
to
debate)

But, in order to proceed at a safe speed the must slow down, unlike
a sailboat that is already proceeding at a safe speed because it is
slow by definition.

If it runs into the side of a ship, it was not proceeding at a safe speed .....
simply being a sailboat does not make your speed "safe"!!!


Should they ever run into
a sailboat even if they were going two knots they would
be adjudicated to be going too fast for the conditions.

As would the sailboat, if it was underway, making way.

Not so because at some time the required lookout on the
bow of the motorvessel will have the sailboat in sight and
the minute that happens the motorboat is the give-way
vessel by definition of the in sight rules.

"Wrong" for many reasons. The person controlling the "bridge" must have the
vessel in sight. What makes you think the sailboat will ever be seen by the bow
watch? .... He may not come into view until a point well aft of that persons
range of visibility, yet forward of the bridges view.



Vessels that sound other fog signals are higher up in the pecking
order so they are the stand-on vessel.

"Wrong" There is NO pecking order in fog and NO vessel is "stand-on"

You are wrong.

Nope

The reason you are wrong is as stated immediately above.

Nope

At some time in sight rules will apply and the motor vessel will be the
give way vessel.

Only if the guy/girl on the bridge see's you.....you can well have been run
over before that occurs.

It follows that if the motor vessel must give way
at any time then the motor vessel is the give way vessel.

"Wrong" as per usual.....I'm on a 900' ship in 600' of visibility. You are
approaching my bow...... guess who will see who first (assuming my ship is a
"stemwinder" - house aft) .... you will, and you'd best do something to avoid.



Motor vessels
are required to stay clear the moment they hear a signal
of a vessel higher up in the pecking order.

"Wrong"...." Every Vessel" shall do what is necessary to avoid every other
vessel.

Wrong by virtue of the fact that some vessels cannot take such action
by definition. A NUC is a good example of this. That is the reason for
the different signal that tells the motor vessel to stay clear because the
NUC can not take action to do so herself.

S. Simon

How do I know it's a NUC? ..... maybe it's a sailboat.....maybe it's a tug,
pushing a barge .... all I know is that it's NOT a powerdriven vessel, going
it's merry way, and that I will need to keep that in mind as I maneuver to
avoid...... or stop......

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

I did not "infer" anything I simple repeated what you
stated in your original post which was wrong! You wrote:

"Let me amplify that the masthead "tricolor" should only be in addition to the sidelights."

I have just proven that a sailboat that has no motor installed does
not need those sidelights and that steaming light because it is never
a motor boat. You say the opposite for the whole world to see.
You wrote that a tricolor "should ONLY be in addition to the sidelights".

How can any light(s) be in addition to something that is not there in the
first place as on a motorless sailboat with tricolor only which is a
totally legal proposition according to the Rules?

Here's the remainder of your erroneous post:

"Let me amplify that the masthead "tricolor" should only be in addition to the sidelights.
While the tricolor is legal for a sailboat, it is NOT for a powerboat. The "masthead
light," commonly called the "steaming light" and mounted partway up the mast on a
sailboat, must be at least one meter above the sidelights. The wording is a bit obtuse,
but I believe that the sidelights can be no higher than 2.5 meters above the gunwale.

"The tricolor on the mast is fine if you're offshore and want to be seen through the swells
by a distant ship, but I think you'd be more concerned powering into you marina on a dark
night."

You are wrong and Shen44 is wrong and now along comes
otnmbird again to chime in with his lame comments. You guys
must be Siamese triplets or something. Maybe you should all
get an operation to separate yourselves???

You repeatedly demonstrate a motorboat mentality and
sincerely feel that every sailboat has an auxiliary so it
is really a motor boat. This is not always the case so
your misconception continue to cause dangerous
situations on the water.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
You may have inferred that I was talking about using both sets at the same time, but I
never implied it.

Your babbling doesn't make any sense - if the engine is not running and the sails are up,
it makes no difference howmuch wind there is, its a sailboat and therefore can use the
lights for sailboats. And a boat the has no engine, or never uses it, or is never
underway when lights are required, does not need sidelights under the ColRegs.

My advice was specifically to Bobsprit. Now if you're chastising me for inferring that RB
would actually use his engine when making a night entrance to his marina, that's a
different discussion.

Your trying to claim that I said something I didn't - I don't think anyone is buying it
and your opinion isn't anything I'm going to loose sleep over.


"Simple Simon"
wrote in message ...
Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

One could use EITHER the tricolor OR the normal
running lights and not both as Jeff stated (or at least
implied).

Now, what if the sailboat was using machinery? This
cannot be because a sailboat is no longer a sailboat
the moment it uses machinery even if the sails are
up and drawing. Therefore it must use motorboat
lights which are the lower running lights "in addition
to" the steaming light (sometimes called a masthead
light though it is lower down on the mast).

Now we come to the $64,000 question. What if the
sailboat was underway but not making way and had
her sails up but there was no wind? Furthermore,
she is a pure sailboat and had nomotor installed.

Would she be required to have
the lower set of running lights? No, she would not
because she could never be a motor boat. Therefore
both you and Jeff are wrong in your stupid insistence
that sailboats must have lower running lights "in addition
to" a tricolor.

Gotcha!!!!


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 11:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Your wording was more than a "tad vague", it was clearly wrong.

See my reply to your good buddy Shenn44 and then be man
enough to admit that what you wrote is very misleading and clearly
incorrect. I got you this time. I know you are loathe to admit
it but I got you this time. He he!


G What he wrote could be considered "misleading" to someone such as yourself,
incapable of connecting two thoughts to create a whole.
If you'd read all of his statement (looked before you leapt) you would have
realized he was talking about powerdriven sailboats who used the tricolor light
when not powerdriven...... a sailboat which uses a tricolor light will have, in
addition, normal side lights when powerdriven and turn off the tricolor light
and employ a masthead light.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

My post was a direct response to RB's question. Are you claiming that RB's C&C is a
"motorless sailboat"?

Nowhere to I say that the lights should be on at the same time. RB was asking about
installing a tricolor, I was reminding him not to remove the sidelights. If you look at
another post of his (which actually triggered mine) he doesn't say he has sidelights,
clearly a problem in his case.

Sorry, Neal. You're just not getting anywhere with this one - its pretty lame, even for
you.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
I did not "infer" anything I simple repeated what you
stated in your original post which was wrong! You wrote:

"Let me amplify that the masthead "tricolor" should only be in addition to the
sidelights."

I have just proven that a sailboat that has no motor installed does
not need those sidelights and that steaming light because it is never
a motor boat. You say the opposite for the whole world to see.
You wrote that a tricolor "should ONLY be in addition to the sidelights".

How can any light(s) be in addition to something that is not there in the
first place as on a motorless sailboat with tricolor only which is a
totally legal proposition according to the Rules?

Here's the remainder of your erroneous post:

"Let me amplify that the masthead "tricolor" should only be in addition to the
sidelights.
While the tricolor is legal for a sailboat, it is NOT for a powerboat. The "masthead
light," commonly called the "steaming light" and mounted partway up the mast on a
sailboat, must be at least one meter above the sidelights. The wording is a bit obtuse,
but I believe that the sidelights can be no higher than 2.5 meters above the gunwale.

"The tricolor on the mast is fine if you're offshore and want to be seen through the
swells
by a distant ship, but I think you'd be more concerned powering into you marina on a
dark
night."

You are wrong and Shen44 is wrong and now along comes
otnmbird again to chime in with his lame comments. You guys
must be Siamese triplets or something. Maybe you should all
get an operation to separate yourselves???

You repeatedly demonstrate a motorboat mentality and
sincerely feel that every sailboat has an auxiliary so it
is really a motor boat. This is not always the case so
your misconception continue to cause dangerous
situations on the water.

S.Simon



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
You may have inferred that I was talking about using both sets at the same time, but I
never implied it.

Your babbling doesn't make any sense - if the engine is not running and the sails are
up,
it makes no difference howmuch wind there is, its a sailboat and therefore can use the
lights for sailboats. And a boat the has no engine, or never uses it, or is never
underway when lights are required, does not need sidelights under the ColRegs.

My advice was specifically to Bobsprit. Now if you're chastising me for inferring
that RB
would actually use his engine when making a night entrance to his marina, that's a
different discussion.

Your trying to claim that I said something I didn't - I don't think anyone is buying
it
and your opinion isn't anything I'm going to loose sleep over.


"Simple Simon"
wrote in message ...
Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

One could use EITHER the tricolor OR the normal
running lights and not both as Jeff stated (or at least
implied).

Now, what if the sailboat was using machinery? This
cannot be because a sailboat is no longer a sailboat
the moment it uses machinery even if the sails are
up and drawing. Therefore it must use motorboat
lights which are the lower running lights "in addition
to" the steaming light (sometimes called a masthead
light though it is lower down on the mast).

Now we come to the $64,000 question. What if the
sailboat was underway but not making way and had
her sails up but there was no wind? Furthermore,
she is a pure sailboat and had nomotor installed.

Would she be required to have
the lower set of running lights? No, she would not
because she could never be a motor boat. Therefore
both you and Jeff are wrong in your stupid insistence
that sailboats must have lower running lights "in addition
to" a tricolor.

Gotcha!!!!


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 11:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Your wording was more than a "tad vague", it was clearly wrong.

See my reply to your good buddy Shenn44 and then be man
enough to admit that what you wrote is very misleading and clearly
incorrect. I got you this time. I know you are loathe to admit
it but I got you this time. He he!


G What he wrote could be considered "misleading" to someone such as yourself,
incapable of connecting two thoughts to create a whole.
If you'd read all of his statement (looked before you leapt) you would have
realized he was talking about powerdriven sailboats who used the tricolor light
when not powerdriven...... a sailboat which uses a tricolor light will have, in
addition, normal side lights when powerdriven and turn off the tricolor light
and employ a masthead light.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Tim,
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My eyes must be truly jaded because what you see and what I see are tow different things.
It is well and good, though, that you see what you do, since if you saw what I saw you would get rid of square boxes and start
sailing things with at least one pointy end.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Let there be Nav. Light
 

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/mg1996.jpg

Oh crud....I was talking about the wrong boat...yes, that one is pretty...you can keep her...Lady Kate, though...
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Why 'stemwinder'?


G Sorry .... Back when I first started going to sea, most ships had their
houses/enginerooms, amidships.
As they started building ships as you see them today (majority with
house/engineroom aft), someone came up with the term "stemwinder" to
differentiate them.
Exactly how the term relates, in all honesty, is beyond me.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/27/2003 07:46 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Wrong again, Shen44. As soon as the lookout relays
to the bridge that he has a vessel in sight, and he must
do so immediately, then the vessels are in sight. Period,
end of sentence. Any lookout is a legal and binding
extension of the eyes and ears on the bridge. (Yes,
and even if the bridge is asleep which is not a rare
event.)

LOL You "might" be able to find some legal precedence to back this up ....
please show it to me, in context.

At any rate, if in the real world, by this time, who has the greatest ability
to avoid?
At your height of eye, normally (not always) you should have seen the ship
first and all ready be maneuvering to avoid .... for many reasons.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/27/2003 07:46 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Wrong again, Shen44. As soon as the lookout relays
to the bridge that he has a vessel in sight, and he must
do so immediately, then the vessels are in sight. Period,
end of sentence. Any lookout is a legal and binding
extension of the eyes and ears on the bridge. (Yes,
and even if the bridge is asleep which is not a rare
event.)

LOL You "might" be able to find some legal precedence to back this up ....
please show it to me, in context.

At any rate, if in the real world, by this time, who has the greatest ability
to avoid?
At your height of eye, normally (not always) you should have seen the ship
first and all ready be maneuvering to avoid .... for many reasons.


Negative sir! The Rules require me, as the stand-on vessel to hold
my present speed and course. The Rules place the burden of
giving way to the motor vessel. I am only required to do what
is necessary to avoid a collision provided the give-way vessel
is not taking the required action. If a wreck should occur it will
be judged the motor vessel shares the greater share of the liability.

Now, in your motor boat mentality arrogance you are blatantly
misinterpreting the Rules by saying the stand-on vessel must give
way for its own good. Sorry Mr. Shen44 that's not the way it works.

Let there be Nav. Light
 

You are trying to use the same, old, tired argument as Jeff.

Both of you are not going to get out of it by saying "in context
this and in context that". I don't give a hoot who Jeff was responding
to. If he meant to say auxiliary sailboats must have 'in addition to'
the tricolor, regular running and steaming lights he would be correct.

However, that is not what he said. He said sailboat must have . . .

He did not say Bobsprit's sailboat; he did not say auxiliary sailboats;
he said sailboats and since he did he is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Side with me on this one and you will have much more credibility.
You used to have a fair share but the longer you persist in an
untenable position the more it erodes away.

S.Simon


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Jeff was clearly saying that the running lights and
the tricolor at the masthead should be lit at the same
time. Jeff was clearly wrong.


Hmmmm missed that. However, since the subject at hand was a particular sailboat
that is also capable of running "under power", then .... a sailboat which is
using the tricolor light when sailing, shall have "in addition to" this light,
the normal running lights which will be used when the vessel is "additionally"
under power, or "in addition to" that, under power alone.

Shen