Let there be Nav. Light
 

Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 11:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Your wording was more than a "tad vague", it was clearly wrong.

See my reply to your good buddy Shenn44 and then be man
enough to admit that what you wrote is very misleading and clearly
incorrect. I got you this time. I know you are loathe to admit
it but I got you this time. He he!


G What he wrote could be considered "misleading" to someone such as yourself,
incapable of connecting two thoughts to create a whole.
If you'd read all of his statement (looked before you leapt) you would have
realized he was talking about powerdriven sailboats who used the tricolor light
when not powerdriven...... a sailboat which uses a tricolor light will have, in
addition, normal side lights when powerdriven and turn off the tricolor light
and employ a masthead light.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

One could use EITHER the tricolor OR the normal
running lights and not both as Jeff stated (or at least
implied).

Now, what if the sailboat was using machinery? This
cannot be because a sailboat is no longer a sailboat
the moment it uses machinery even if the sails are
up and drawing. Therefore it must use motorboat
lights which are the lower running lights "in addition
to" the steaming light (sometimes called a masthead
light though it is lower down on the mast).

Now we come to the $64,000 question. What if the
sailboat was underway but not making way and had
her sails up but there was no wind? Furthermore,
she is a pure sailboat and had nomotor installed.

Would she be required to have
the lower set of running lights? No, she would not
because she could never be a motor boat. Therefore
both you and Jeff are wrong in your stupid insistence
that sailboats must have lower running lights "in addition
to" a tricolor.

Gotcha!!!!


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 11:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Your wording was more than a "tad vague", it was clearly wrong.

See my reply to your good buddy Shenn44 and then be man
enough to admit that what you wrote is very misleading and clearly
incorrect. I got you this time. I know you are loathe to admit
it but I got you this time. He he!


G What he wrote could be considered "misleading" to someone such as yourself,
incapable of connecting two thoughts to create a whole.
If you'd read all of his statement (looked before you leapt) you would have
realized he was talking about powerdriven sailboats who used the tricolor light
when not powerdriven...... a sailboat which uses a tricolor light will have, in
addition, normal side lights when powerdriven and turn off the tricolor light
and employ a masthead light.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

One could use EITHER the tricolor OR the normal
running lights and not both as Jeff stated (or at least
implied).

Now, what if the sailboat was using machinery? This
cannot be because a sailboat is no longer a sailboat
the moment it uses machinery even if the sails are
up and drawing. Therefore it must use motorboat
lights which are the lower running lights "in addition
to" the steaming light (sometimes called a masthead
light though it is lower down on the mast).

Now we come to the $64,000 question. What if the
sailboat was underway but not making way and had
her sails up but there was no wind? Furthermore,
she is a pure sailboat and had nomotor installed.

Would she be required to have
the lower set of running lights? No, she would not
because she could never be a motor boat. Therefore
both you and Jeff are wrong in your stupid insistence
that sailboats must have lower running lights "in addition
to" a tricolor.

Gotcha!!!!


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 11:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Your wording was more than a "tad vague", it was clearly wrong.

See my reply to your good buddy Shenn44 and then be man
enough to admit that what you wrote is very misleading and clearly
incorrect. I got you this time. I know you are loathe to admit
it but I got you this time. He he!


G What he wrote could be considered "misleading" to someone such as yourself,
incapable of connecting two thoughts to create a whole.
If you'd read all of his statement (looked before you leapt) you would have
realized he was talking about powerdriven sailboats who used the tricolor light
when not powerdriven...... a sailboat which uses a tricolor light will have, in
addition, normal side lights when powerdriven and turn off the tricolor light
and employ a masthead light.

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in
:

Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

Double posting?
got a sttttutter?

Bertei

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Oz1 wrote in
:

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:19:02 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Oz1 wrote in
m:


Bwaaaaahahahhahahahahaaaa!
Do you use a cream on that little anal itch?

You respond to creams? And here I've been applying my usual meds in
here.


Bertie

What , not the friction cure..again?

I don't make the rules, I just follow 'em.


bertie


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 15:15 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: JMmdnZ4MQfMGYL-iRTvUrg@terranova.


LOL Let's see how many errors we can find!!!!

Now you have to resort to putting false words in my mouth.

I never said a sailboat should not slow down or even stop
if it heard fog signals dead ahead. What I said is a sailboat
does not have to slow down in a fog according to the Rules
when it does not hear a fog signal dead ahead on a collision
course.

"Wrong" EVERY VESSEL shall procede at a safe speed .... that means sailboats
too .... if safe speed is only 1knot then you need to slow down if you are
doing 6 knots.

I said a sailboat is already meeting the definition of
going slow because as we all know there is rarely very much
wind in a fog

Not always true, so you have to consider the "prevailing circumstances" (Been
in zero visibility with 25k winds)

and even if the sailboat, mine for example, were
going hull speed it would still meet the definition of going slow.

"Wrong" .... for obvious reasons


The only vessels that are required to slow down in a fog even
if they do not hear a fog signal on a collision course are motor
vessels sounding the signal for motor vessels.

"Wrong" .... G see above

These vessels
normally travel at speeds of twenty knots or greater which
is clearly a dangerous thing to do in a fog.

G That would be a high average....anywhere from 12k to 30k is more accurate.

They are required
to slow down to a safe speed.

"Wrong" They are required to "Proceed at a Safe Speed" (here's an area open to
debate)

Should they ever run into
a sailboat even if they were going two knots they would
be adjudicated to be going too fast for the conditions.

As would the sailboat, if it was underway, making way.


Vessels that sound other fog signals are higher up in the pecking
order so they are the stand-on vessel.

"Wrong" There is NO pecking order in fog and NO vessel is "stand-on"

The presence of fog
does not make them the give way vessel.

"Wrong" Every Vessel shall navigate with extreme caution .... that does not
mean "stand-on"

Motor vessels
are required to stay clear the moment they hear a signal
of a vessel higher up in the pecking order.

"Wrong"...." Every Vessel" shall do what is necessary to avoid every other
vessel.
A vessel engaged in towing sounds the same signal as a sailing vessel in fog (
and is not considered RAM simply because it's towing)...again no pecking order
because of sound signals.

All you have to
do is ask yourself how a dredge, for example, is going to
slow down or take evasive action to see how foolish and
untenable your motorboat mentality stand is.

"Wrong" ROFL HUH????? Dredges tend to be twin screw with all sorts of thrusters
and going at very slow speeds.... i.e. can stop and turn quickly.


Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in
:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 15:15 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: JMmdnZ4MQfMGYL-iRTvUrg@terranova.


LOL Let's see how many errors we can find!!!!

Now you have to resort to putting false words in my mouth.

I never said a sailboat should not slow down or even stop
if it heard fog signals dead ahead. What I said is a sailboat
does not have to slow down in a fog according to the Rules
when it does not hear a fog signal dead ahead on a collision
course.

"Wrong" EVERY VESSEL shall procede at a safe speed .... that means
sailboats too .... if safe speed is only 1knot then you need to slow
down if you are doing 6 knots.

Like I stated. Sailboats like mine already travel at a safe speed.
They cannot travel any faster than a safe speed. If they traveled
any slower they would lose maneuverability and that would
be, by definition, an unsafe speed. Safe speed cannot be
one knot because that would mean loss of maneuverability.


I said a sailboat is already meeting the definition of
going slow because as we all know there is rarely very much
wind in a fog

Not always true, so you have to consider the "prevailing
circumstances" (Been in zero visibility with 25k winds)

Even in twenty five knots of wind a sailboat like mine is still
constrained by her hull speed of around 6.7 knots and will
probably be going slower because of the necessity to reef
down sail area.

The only vessels that are required to slow down in a fog even
if they do not hear a fog signal on a collision course are motor
vessels sounding the signal for motor vessels.

"Wrong" .... G see above

Right, by definition any vessel that is already proceeding at
a safe speed is proceeding slowly enoug.

They are required
to slow down to a safe speed.

"Wrong" They are required to "Proceed at a Safe Speed" (here's an
area open to debate)

But, in order to proceed at a safe speed the must slow down, unlike
a sailboat that is already proceeding at a safe speed because it is
slow by definition.


Should they ever run into
a sailboat even if they were going two knots they would
be adjudicated to be going too fast for the conditions.

As would the sailboat, if it was underway, making way.

Not so because at some time the required lookout on the
bow of the motorvessel will have the sailboat in sight and
the minute that happens the motorboat is the give-way
vessel by definition of the in sight rules.



Vessels that sound other fog signals are higher up in the pecking
order so they are the stand-on vessel.

"Wrong" There is NO pecking order in fog and NO vessel is "stand-on"

You are wrong. The reason you are wrong is as stated immediately
above. At some time in sight rules will apply and the motor vessel
will be the give way vessel. It follows that if the motor vessel must
give way at any time then the motor vessel is the give way vessel.



Motor vessels
are required to stay clear the moment they hear a signal
of a vessel higher up in the pecking order.

"Wrong"...." Every Vessel" shall do what is necessary to avoid every
other vessel.

Wrong by virtue of the fact that some vessels cannot take such action
by definition. A NUC is a good example of this. That is the reason for
the different signal that tells the motor vessel to stay clear because
the NUC can not take action to do so herself.


You're full of ****.


Bertie

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 07/26/2003 16:04 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Tut, tut, tut! Semantics again. A sailboat is ONLY a
sailboat when machinery is NOT in use and sails
are in use. What lights could one use if the sailboat
had her sails up but there was no wind and she was
underway but not making way?

If she was not under power, either side lights and stern light or if her size
allowed, the tricolor..... what's "not making way" got to do with it?

One could use EITHER the tricolor OR the normal
running lights and not both as Jeff stated (or at least
implied).

G Sorry if I'm butt'n in on your fun, Jeff, but you know how much I enjoy
watching Neal screw up.
I don't think he implied any such thing ... I just don't think you capable of
handling any but the most simple of subjects.

Now, what if the sailboat was using machinery? This
cannot be because a sailboat is no longer a sailboat
the moment it uses machinery even if the sails are
up and drawing. Therefore it must use motorboat
lights which are the lower running lights "in addition
to" the steaming light (sometimes called a masthead
light though it is lower down on the mast).

Not sometimes .... "normally" referred to as a "Masthead" light, mainly to
differentiate it from the "range" light on larger vessels ..... but that's
beyond your experience or knowledge.

Now we come to the $64,000 question. What if the
sailboat was underway but not making way and had
her sails up but there was no wind?

See above

Furthermore,
she is a pure sailboat and had nomotor installed.

Would she be required to have
the lower set of running lights? No, she would not
because she could never be a motor boat. Therefore
both you and Jeff are wrong in your stupid insistence
that sailboats must have lower running lights "in addition
to" a tricolor.

You need to learn to "read and comprehend". The statement regarding the other
lights has been attributed to the "powerdriven" mode by both Jeff and myself.

Gotcha!!!!

ROFLMAO.....Not hardly....Never Happen!!!!!!!

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Good god, but you top-posting ****wits sure know how to have a good
time!

Jerry


Good Gawd, but you BS posting, unrelating, immaterial ****wits sure know how to
turn a thread into mostly junk, not worth following !!!!

Shen

Let there be Nav. Light
 

Subject: Let there be Nav. Light
From: "Simple Simon"

LOL Let's see how many errors we can find!!!!

Now you have to resort to putting false words in my mouth.

I never said a sailboat should not slow down or even stop
if it heard fog signals dead ahead. What I said is a sailboat
does not have to slow down in a fog according to the Rules
when it does not hear a fog signal dead ahead on a collision
course.

"Wrong" EVERY VESSEL shall procede at a safe speed .... that means
sailboats
too .... if safe speed is only 1knot then you need to slow down if you are
doing 6 knots.

Like I stated. Sailboats like mine already travel at a safe speed.
They cannot travel any faster than a safe speed. If they traveled
any slower they would lose maneuverability and that would
be, by definition, an unsafe speed. Safe speed cannot be
one knot because that would mean loss of maneuverability.

"Wrong" If you hit the side of a ship, traveling at "hull speed", then you were
moving too fast for the conditions.
The question of maneuverability as you state it, applies to powerdriven as well
as sail....and is a bogus argument. G most sailboats can effectively steer at
much slower speeds than can some ship.


I said a sailboat is already meeting the definition of
going slow because as we all know there is rarely very much
wind in a fog

Not always true, so you have to consider the "prevailing circumstances"
(Been
in zero visibility with 25k winds)

Even in twenty five knots of wind a sailboat like mine is still
constrained by her hull speed of around 6.7 knots and will
probably be going slower because of the necessity to reef
down sail area.

So?


The only vessels that are required to slow down in a fog even
if they do not hear a fog signal on a collision course are motor
vessels sounding the signal for motor vessels.

"Wrong" .... G see above

Right, by definition any vessel that is already proceeding at
a safe speed is proceeding slowly enoug.

Not necessarily.... but then again, you don't understand "safe speed"

They are required
to slow down to a safe speed.

"Wrong" They are required to "Proceed at a Safe Speed" (here's an area open
to
debate)

But, in order to proceed at a safe speed the must slow down, unlike
a sailboat that is already proceeding at a safe speed because it is
slow by definition.

If it runs into the side of a ship, it was not proceeding at a safe speed .....
simply being a sailboat does not make your speed "safe"!!!


Should they ever run into
a sailboat even if they were going two knots they would
be adjudicated to be going too fast for the conditions.

As would the sailboat, if it was underway, making way.

Not so because at some time the required lookout on the
bow of the motorvessel will have the sailboat in sight and
the minute that happens the motorboat is the give-way
vessel by definition of the in sight rules.

"Wrong" for many reasons. The person controlling the "bridge" must have the
vessel in sight. What makes you think the sailboat will ever be seen by the bow
watch? .... He may not come into view until a point well aft of that persons
range of visibility, yet forward of the bridges view.



Vessels that sound other fog signals are higher up in the pecking
order so they are the stand-on vessel.

"Wrong" There is NO pecking order in fog and NO vessel is "stand-on"

You are wrong.

Nope

The reason you are wrong is as stated immediately above.

Nope

At some time in sight rules will apply and the motor vessel will be the
give way vessel.

Only if the guy/girl on the bridge see's you.....you can well have been run
over before that occurs.

It follows that if the motor vessel must give way
at any time then the motor vessel is the give way vessel.

"Wrong" as per usual.....I'm on a 900' ship in 600' of visibility. You are
approaching my bow...... guess who will see who first (assuming my ship is a
"stemwinder" - house aft) .... you will, and you'd best do something to avoid.



Motor vessels
are required to stay clear the moment they hear a signal
of a vessel higher up in the pecking order.

"Wrong"...." Every Vessel" shall do what is necessary to avoid every other
vessel.

Wrong by virtue of the fact that some vessels cannot take such action
by definition. A NUC is a good example of this. That is the reason for
the different signal that tells the motor vessel to stay clear because the
NUC can not take action to do so herself.

S. Simon

How do I know it's a NUC? ..... maybe it's a sailboat.....maybe it's a tug,
pushing a barge .... all I know is that it's NOT a powerdriven vessel, going
it's merry way, and that I will need to keep that in mind as I maneuver to
avoid...... or stop......

Shen