It's pretty standard or was several years ago before Hunter
and some other manufacturers started skimping on standing
rigging with Gunter rigs and other such nonsense not welcome
on a cruising vessel.

You rig is called a masthead rig with double lowers and
split backstay. This is a proper cruising rig.

"Wally" wrote in message ...
Being an innocent, fresh-faced newbie who isn't an expert on boats, I was
wondering if the rig on my boat is particular type. If so, I'd be interested
in finding out what type of rig it is. I'd also be interested in hearing
comments on it.

There are fore and backstays, both of which go to the top of the mast. The
backstay is an inverted 'Y', with the 'prongs' of the Y coming down to the
quarters. On one quarter, the stay ends at a block, allowing for, presumably
quick, tension adjustment. The forestay has one of those opposing thread
tension adjusters (turnbuckle?).

On each beam, there are two shrouds that attach to the mast just under the
spreaders, with one turnbuckle on each side being forward of the mast, and
one aft. There is also a shroud on each side in line with the mast, passing
over the spreader and going up to the top. There are turnbuckles(?) on all
six shrouds. The spreaders are not the swept back type.

If this is a standard type of rig, what's it called? I can see that the
short shrouds and fore and backstays could be used to set mast bend.

Comments?


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

masthead sloop.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:
Being an innocent, fresh-faced newbie who isn't an expert on boats, I was
wondering if the rig on my boat is particular type. If so, I'd be interested
in finding out what type of rig it is. I'd also be interested in hearing
comments on it.

There are fore and backstays, both of which go to the top of the mast. The
backstay is an inverted 'Y', with the 'prongs' of the Y coming down to the
quarters. On one quarter, the stay ends at a block, allowing for, presumably
quick, tension adjustment. The forestay has one of those opposing thread
tension adjusters (turnbuckle?).

On each beam, there are two shrouds that attach to the mast just under the
spreaders, with one turnbuckle on each side being forward of the mast, and
one aft. There is also a shroud on each side in line with the mast, passing
over the spreader and going up to the top. There are turnbuckles(?) on all
six shrouds. The spreaders are not the swept back type.

If this is a standard type of rig, what's it called? I can see that the
short shrouds and fore and backstays could be used to set mast bend.

Comments?


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

"Simple Simon" wrote in message news:fe-dnS-

It's pretty standard or was several years ago before Hunter
and some other manufacturers started skimping on standing
rigging with Gunter rigs and other such nonsense not welcome
on a cruising vessel.

Figures - the boat was made in 1972.


You rig is called a masthead rig with double lowers and
split backstay. This is a proper cruising rig.

In what way is it a proper cruising rig? Strength? Wouldn't it be viable for
(non-serious) racing as well? (I'm thinking about the tuning aspect, as
mentioned a while ago, it has a sliding gooseneck as well.)


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

Wally wrote:

Being an innocent, fresh-faced newbie who isn't an expert on boats, I was
wondering if the rig on my boat is particular type.

Yes

If so, I'd be interested
in finding out what type of rig it is.

It's a masthead sloop, also called a Bermuda or Marconi or jib-headed rig
because of the triangular sails, as opposed to a gaff or sprit rig with
quadrilateral sails.

I'd also be interested in hearing
comments on it.

OK: it's a very common rig because it's cheap & sturdy (given a suitable level
of technological/industrial development). It is relatively weatherly, meaning
that it's efficient going upwind, and can stand up to a wide range of
conditions. It is not particularly adjustable though, and suffers when trying to
tune for balance or to depower without laboriously shortening sail. Also it can
only fly masthead foresails & spinnakers.



There are fore and backstays, both of which go to the top of the mast. The
backstay is an inverted 'Y', with the 'prongs' of the Y coming down to the
quarters.

The inverted "Y" is for adjusting the tension of the backstay, which will affect
mast bend slightly and foresail shape & trim noticably. Generally you want to
tighten the backstay as the wind increases, up to the point where the structure
of the boat starts distorting.



... The forestay has one of those opposing thread
tension adjusters (turnbuckle?).

Yep.



On each beam, there are two shrouds that attach to the mast just under the
spreaders, with one turnbuckle on each side being forward of the mast, and
one aft.

These are double lowers. Their function is to restrain the lower section of the
mast from bending the wrong way, or bowing alternately one way then the other
(pumping), either of which can result in the mast falling down. The double
lowers can also be used to induce a slight bend in the mast which can then be
exaggerated or relaxed with the backstay tensioner. The foreward pair of lowers
should be the tighter.


There is also a shroud on each side in line with the mast, passing
over the spreader and going up to the top.

These are the upper shrouds, and are used to control the side-to-side bend of
the mast (although the lowers also influence this). Think of the mast with it's
shrouds as the same sort of girder as a webbed panel in a bridge: the mast &
spreader is in compression, the shrouds are under tension, the whole is a rigid
assembly that can take either a little or a lot of force without bending too
much or breaking.



--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!

I like that slogan. How about this one: "I have no respect for conventional
tokens of disrespect!" ?



"Simple Simon" wrote-
It's pretty standard or was several years ago before Hunter
and some other manufacturers started skimping on standing
rigging with Gunter rigs and other such nonsense not welcome
on a cruising vessel.

Just when one thought the heights of idiocy had been reached, the Crapton climbs
a bit higher.

1- recent Hunter rigs have *more* standing rigging (all those wires & stuff) not
less.

2- A Gunter rig would be most welcome on a cruising boat, if set up on a proper
sailing dinghy. However this rig is nothing at all like anything on any Hunter,
regardless of the fact that they rhyme.

Tune in next week and I'll explain what Gunter rig is, for those who have no
sailing books in their local library (or at least, none with pictures in them).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

It is not meant to be tuned as in mast bend, etc.
For racing and tuning a 3/4 rig with single lowers
is better but the disadvantage is such a set-up is
weaker.

Double lowers are important for supporting the
mast especially when well-reefed down. The disadvantage
is the mainsail begins to rub on them sooner and this compromises
the shape of the sail when broad reaching whereas single lowers
allow more room to sheet out without the sail touching
them.


"Wally" wrote in message ...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message news:fe-dnS-

It's pretty standard or was several years ago before Hunter
and some other manufacturers started skimping on standing
rigging with Gunter rigs and other such nonsense not welcome
on a cruising vessel.

Figures - the boat was made in 1972.


You rig is called a masthead rig with double lowers and
split backstay. This is a proper cruising rig.

In what way is it a proper cruising rig? Strength? Wouldn't it be viable for
(non-serious) racing as well? (I'm thinking about the tuning aspect, as
mentioned a while ago, it has a sliding gooseneck as well.)


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

Double lowers are important for supporting the
mast especially when well-reefed down.

Get a babystay.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

"DSK" wrote in message

It's a masthead sloop, also called a Bermuda or Marconi or jib-headed rig
because of the triangular sails, as opposed to a gaff or sprit rig with
quadrilateral sails.

Okay.


I'd also be interested in hearing
comments on it.

OK: it's a very common rig because it's cheap & sturdy (given a suitable
level of technological/industrial development). It is relatively
weatherly,
meaning that it's efficient going upwind, and can stand up to a wide range
of conditions.

Sturdy is good...


It is not particularly adjustable though, and suffers when trying to
tune for balance ...

Losing me here - tune for balance?


... or to depower without laboriously shortening sail. ...

Well, the main has roller reefing (although I need to sort out a strop for
the kicker), so maybe shortening sail won't be too much of a hassle. The jib
is hanked, but rather tatty (needs repairs to the luff). Rather than replace
the latter with another standard jib, and maybe find myself wanting a genoa
as well, I'm thinking of a roller reefing genoa, maybe next year. (My
thinking is that a new jib and a new genoa would cost about the same as a
reefing mechanism and suitable genoa, so the reefng option would make life
easier when I'm single-handing.)


... Also it can
only fly masthead foresails & spinnakers.

Would I be right in thinking that using a small jib with a reefed main on
this rig would move the centre of effort forward?


The inverted "Y" is for adjusting the tension of the backstay, which will
affect mast bend slightly and foresail shape & trim noticably. Generally
you want to tighten the backstay as the wind increases, up to the point
where the structure of the boat starts distorting.

The shape of the main would be affected (flattened) as well, wouldn't it?
For an 18' boat how much would the top of the mast typically come aft? FWIW,
it also has a sliding gooseneck and (shortish) tracks for the jibsheet
fairleads.


These are double lowers. Their function is to restrain the lower section
of the mast from bending the wrong way, or bowing alternately one way
then the other (pumping), either of which can result in the mast falling
down.

Ah, hadn't though of the pumping thing.


The double
lowers can also be used to induce a slight bend in the mast which can then
be exaggerated or relaxed with the backstay tensioner. The foreward pair
of lowers should be the tighter.

Do you mean that the mast is set to tilt forward slightly? Or that the
forward lowers have tension because they're working against the backstay?


There is also a shroud on each side in line with the mast, passing
over the spreader and going up to the top.

These are the upper shrouds, and are used to control the side-to-side bend
of the mast (although the lowers also influence this). Think of the mast
with
it's shrouds as the same sort of girder as a webbed panel in a bridge: the
mast & spreader is in compression, the shrouds are under tension, the
whole
is a rigid assembly that can take either a little or a lot of force
without
bending too much or breaking.

Yup, I can see how there's a bunch of triangulation going on - atfer sailing
dinghies last year which only had a forestay and the masthead shrouds, this
set up does give the impression of being stronger and stiffer.



I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!

I like that slogan. How about this one: "I have no respect for
conventional tokens of disrespect!" ?

I'll keep that in mind for potential future use. :-)


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

"Simple Simon" wrote in message news:E-

It is not meant to be tuned as in mast bend, etc.
For racing and tuning a 3/4 rig with single lowers
is better but the disadvantage is such a set-up is
weaker.

So, what sort of adjustments can be made with a 3/4 rig, but not one with
double lowers?


Double lowers are important for supporting the
mast especially when well-reefed down.

Ah, something to do with the area of the sail sitting lower overall?


The disadvantage
is the mainsail begins to rub on them sooner and this compromises
the shape of the sail when broad reaching whereas single lowers
allow more room to sheet out without the sail touching
them.

Noted.


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

It is not particularly adjustable though, and suffers when trying to
tune for balance ...


Wally wrote:
Losing me here - tune for balance?

Well, I was thinking of balance on the helm, which can be very definitely
affected by the trim of the sails and the adjustment of the rig. A masthead rig
is less able to adjust the rig "on the fly" than a fractional rig.



... or to depower without laboriously shortening sail. ...

Well, the main has roller reefing (although I need to sort out a strop for
the kicker), so maybe shortening sail won't be too much of a hassle.

Hmm, how to be tactful while saying this.... roller reefing is more difficult
and less effective than slab reefing.


The jib
is hanked, but rather tatty (needs repairs to the luff).

Have you considered learning sailmakers skills? Fun, passes the time, useful
result.... personally I prefer it to tippity tapping on the computer. But
talking about boats is still fun.


.... I'm thinking of a roller reefing genoa, maybe next year. (My
thinking is that a new jib and a new genoa would cost about the same as a
reefing mechanism and suitable genoa, so the reefng option would make life
easier when I'm single-handing.)

Yes, but consider getting the small jib recut for using with the RF too. The
roller reefing will only take the genoa down one size, maybe two max. You'll
still want a small jib!


Would I be right in thinking that using a small jib with a reefed main on
this rig would move the centre of effort forward?

Yes, definitely. You might want to consider using a small jib set up on an inner
stay. Staysails can make great storm sails.

.. Generally
you want to tighten the backstay as the wind increases, up to the point
where the structure of the boat starts distorting.

The shape of the main would be affected (flattened) as well, wouldn't it?

Yes, two ways: One is that mast bend is increased, which pulls cloth out of the
middle of the sail, and the other is that it brings the mast tip closer to the
boom, which opens the leach (assuming that the sail is not sheeted down harder).


For an 18' boat how much would the top of the mast typically come aft?

Depends on the backstay adjuster, the stiffness of the hull, and the muscles of
the person working the backstay adjuster Could be 8cm or more, 2 or 3 cm is
more likely.

FWIW,
it also has a sliding gooseneck and (shortish) tracks for the jibsheet
fairleads.

All good ways of getting more effective sail shape. Remember that as you honk
down the gooseneck, you tighten the leach but you also lower the boom and reduce
the leverage of the vang (also known as the kicking strap).


These are double lowers. .... The foreward pair
of lowers should be the tighter.

Do you mean that the mast is set to tilt forward slightly? Or that the
forward lowers have tension because they're working against the backstay?

The latter, plus you want the mast to bow foreward, not aft. This is one reason
why you want a backstay adjuster, to help pull the forestay tight so the jib
luff won't sag as much. With most jibs, this is very important for pointing
(getting the finest angle going to windward).



Yup, I can see how there's a bunch of triangulation going on - atfer sailing
dinghies last year which only had a forestay and the masthead shrouds, this
set up does give the impression of being stronger and stiffer.

It is but remember two things: 1- overall, tension must equal compression. The
stays work by trying to push the mast down through the hull, or alternately
trying to bend the boat like a banana. Banana shaped boats generally suffer
sailing performance! 2- if one part of an assembly is very strong or stiff, it
will throw more strain on the next part. Sailors often tend to forget one or the
other, thus gaining personal insights about Murphy's Law.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Simple Simon wrote:

Did you learn all that from trimming the riding sail on your trawler, Doug?

No, but if that were true, it would still be a greater sailing feat than anything you've accomplished.

DSK