|
Hey Donal
One of my 'dock buddies' just bought a 2001, Bendy 31.1. Nice boat!, very,
very nice cabin! Big roomy cockpit, perfect for partying. Scotty |
Hey Donal
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... One of my 'dock buddies' just bought a 2001, Bendy 31.1. Nice boat!, very, very nice cabin! Big roomy cockpit, perfect for partying. They are a very nice cruising boat, which has very comfortable accomodation for a 31 footer. The 311 is an Oceanis, which is quite different to my boat. The last time that I helmed an Oceanis, I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. It turned out that I just wasn't used to the small rudder. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
It turned out that I just wasn't used to
the small rudder. Great friken grief. RB |
Hey Donal
Purely out of interest, why do you see strangeness in that
particular comment? (I will explain my interest, if you like). Donal displays his incredible lack of sailing knowledge at every turn. With a comment like his, it's easy to see why he bought into Beneteau ads. He found the 31 tough to steer? What boat is tough to steer when trimmed correctly. Answer: None, not even the 31 with it's cruising underbody. Please explain YOUR interest. RB |
Hey Donal
Yep, you can't sail them unbalanced or with excessive heel.
In other words, Donal couldn't trim the boat. RB |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: Purely out of interest, why do you see strangeness in that particular comment? (I will explain my interest, if you like). Donal displays his incredible lack of sailing knowledge at every turn. With a comment like his, it's easy to see why he bought into Beneteau ads. He found the 31 tough to steer? What boat is tough to steer when trimmed correctly. Answer: None, not even the 31 with it's cruising underbody. Please explain YOUR interest. RB No, I didn't interpret Donal's statement that way at all, for reason of my own sailing experience. Most of the boats I've sailed have been dinghies, or dinghy equivalents (which includes most trailer sailers, of course). Almost all have deep and powerful rudders, the extreme actually being FLying Tadpole the Light Schooner, where the swept area of the rudder is about 2/3rds the area of the fully down dagger board. As well as powerful, the rudder is way way aft and needs every bit of its 5 foot tiller for control in gusts on a reach when overcanvassed and mostly out of the water. Overall, the boat is instantly responsive to her helm, a polo pony, which one sails like a dinghy, always moving the helm slightly for optimising her path through wind and wave, and slaughtering the competition. From there one moves to Lady Kate, where to maintain the extreme shoal draft, the rudder is as shallow as can be got away with, endplate (wings) and all, and in the run of the boat, not projecting well below like a spade rudder. Now, the actual helm is not heavier, nor lighter, than Flying Tadpole, since the leverage has been calculated to more-or-less match the presumed helmsman effort. But the level and nature of the responsiveness is totally different from the sharp reesponses of Flying Tadpole. For starters, the rudder is not powerful enough to run counter to the sail set, whereas with flying Tadpole, one can get away briefly with doing something violent at the helm without bringing sails into play. For seconds, Lady Kate actually has to be moving slightly for the rudder to bite, whereas FT can be accelerated off with one rudder jiggle...but generally, one steers FLying Tadpole like the big dinghy she is (in common with most of the boats on this newsgroup). But applying the same helm techniques to Lady Kate is counterproductive, all one ends up with is aching shoulders. It took me a long time to adjust to the totally different feel and approach needed because of the small rudder factor. I find it not at all surprising that Donal on a brief encounter had difficulty adjusting. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Bwaaaaaa hah haaaa hah haaa haaaa haaaaaaa! Bubles you're nuts! Maybe...but I can trim my boat so the wheel can be steered with a overcooked strand of angel hair pasta! I can just see Donal wrestling with that wheel, wondering what was wrong! RB |
Hey Donal
Maybe...but I can trim my boat so the wheel can be steered with a overcooked
strand of angel hair pasta! I can just see Donal wrestling with that wheel, wondering what was wrong! Donal was talking about doing it with the sails up and motor off. Its apples and oranges. |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: Bwaaaaaa hah haaaa hah haaa haaaa haaaaaaa! Bubles you're nuts! Maybe...but I can trim my boat so the wheel can be steered with a overcooked strand of angel hair pasta! I can just see Donal wrestling with that wheel, wondering what was wrong! RB Do you mean you're trimming for an absolutely neutral helm? -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Do you mean you're trimming for an absolutely neutral helm?
With sails set properly, I can walk away from the helm of Ghost or Alien without locking the wheel. If you're fighting the wheel in reasonable conditions, you need a sailing lesson. Sorry. RB |
Hey Donal
Donal was talking about doing it with the sails up and motor off. Its apples
and oranges. Hey, Skitch...it's not my fault your butt boy was fighting the wheel until "he got used to it." Bwahahahahahaha! He got used to not trimming the boat? RB |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: I find it not at all surprising that Donal on a brief encounter had difficulty adjusting. Rediculous! The 31 is a cruising boat with reasonable manners. If the sails were trimmed properly, the helm should have been fine. Period. Even in heavy gusts, Alien and Ghost required a light touch on the wheel because I know how to trim. Now let's hear how Donald "just took the helm" and it wasn't his fault the boat was trimmed badly! Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Yeah...Bwahahaha! No, not what I was saying. Moving from a powerful/big rudder to a small rudder leads to differences in response, even where in both cases the sails are trimmed appropriately. As example, in heavy chop I still prefer to let Lady Kate sail herself to windward because she does it better: even now I still tend to apply the helm compensations I would have used on Flying Tadpole, and with the small rudder they're not only pointless, they're increasing the drag. The shift from one to another takes time and practice to sort out. Not that one shouldn't be able to get onto a strange boat and within a relatively short time get the feel of her and sail 90%-95% OK, but if it's a strange boat you'll know it's strange, and you'll know you're not achieving near 100%. One has to learn them. So again, I'm not surprised at Donal's comment. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: I find it not at all surprising that Donal on a brief encounter had difficulty adjusting. Rediculous! The 31 is a cruising boat with reasonable manners. If the sails were trimmed properly, the helm should have been fine. Period. Even in heavy gusts, Alien and Ghost required a light touch on the wheel because I know how to trim. Now let's hear how Donald "just took the helm" and it wasn't his fault the boat was trimmed badly! Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Yeah...Bwahahaha! No, not what I was saying. Moving from a powerful/big rudder to a small rudder leads to differences in response, even where in both cases the sails are trimmed appropriately. As example, in heavy chop I still prefer to let Lady Kate sail herself to windward because she does it better: even now I still tend to apply the helm compensations I would have used on Flying Tadpole, and with the small rudder they're not only pointless, they're increasing the drag. The shift from one to another takes time and practice to sort out. Not that one shouldn't be able to get onto a strange boat and within a relatively short time get the feel of her and sail 90%-95% OK, but if it's a strange boat you'll know it's strange, and you'll know you're not achieving near 100%. One has to learn them. So again, I'm not surprised at Donal's comment. -- Flying Tadpole Taddy, is your rudder wooden? Because if so, you could just knock your head against it rather than debating this. |
Hey Donal
Do you mean you're trimming for an absolutely neutral helm?
With sails set properly (ie, furled and set in their covers), I can walk away from the helm of Ghost or Alien without locking the wheel. If you're fighting the wheel in reasonable conditions, you need a sailing lesson. Sorry. RB |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: Do you mean you're trimming for an absolutely neutral helm? With sails set properly, I can walk away from the helm of Ghost or Alien without locking the wheel. Hmm. Interesting. I have always set my boats to self-steer on a slight weather helm. I'm not sure that I believe the slight lift at the rudder helps move us more to windward, as many authors suggest, but I do know from bitter past experience that an absolulte neutral helm will easily become a lee helm with potentially dire connotations. And I will never leave a helm unattended and unlashed. But then, nothing I've sailed has had a wheel, other than when attached to a trailer. Must be different physics... -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
No, not what I was saying. Moving from a powerful/big rudder to a
small rudder leads to differences in response, Taddy, PLEASE read what Donal wrote again. He indicated "difficulty" with the rudder and helm. He also mentions the "small rudder" which clearly shows he thinks this was the whole problem. The 31 will steer with a feather touch when trimmed correctly. He did not say he had problems coming through a tack, or through heavy chop, or being overpowered. Furthermore, the idiot writes... "I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. " A "SERIOUS" problem??? Bwahahahahaha! Okay, Taddy! RB |
Hey Donal
The 31 is a shallow draft tender boat that actually require a lot more
effort to sail at its best than the Firsts. It heels and needs the traveller dropped in gusts or it will round up! Thanks, Ozzy. As I said, Donal did not know how to trim the boat. He never mentioned any "gusts." I'm betting he'll claim it was squall now! Bwahahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
hinks this was the whole problem. The 31 will steer with a feather touch when
trimmed correctly. In steady breeze with light gusts. Donal never mentioned the weather, so it was obviously fine. RB |
Hey Donal
SkitchNYC wrote: CANDChelp wrote: I find it not at all surprising that Donal on a brief encounter had difficulty adjusting. Rediculous! The 31 is a cruising boat with reasonable manners. If the sails were trimmed properly, the helm should have been fine. Period. Even in heavy gusts, Alien and Ghost required a light touch on the wheel because I know how to trim. Now let's hear how Donald "just took the helm" and it wasn't his fault the boat was trimmed badly! Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Yeah...Bwahahaha! No, not what I was saying. Moving from a powerful/big rudder to a small rudder leads to differences in response, even where in both cases the sails are trimmed appropriately. As example, in heavy chop I still prefer to let Lady Kate sail herself to windward because she does it better: even now I still tend to apply the helm compensations I would have used on Flying Tadpole, and with the small rudder they're not only pointless, they're increasing the drag. The shift from one to another takes time and practice to sort out. Not that one shouldn't be able to get onto a strange boat and within a relatively short time get the feel of her and sail 90%-95% OK, but if it's a strange boat you'll know it's strange, and you'll know you're not achieving near 100%. One has to learn them. So again, I'm not surprised at Donal's comment. -- Flying Tadpole Taddy, is your rudder wooden? Because if so, you could just knock your head against it rather than debating this. Well, I was in a masochistic mood. No, Lady Kate's rudder is actually welded stainless steel (NACA foil), and the endplate can be used as a weed cutter, and I don't feel suicidal right now, so I won't do as you suggest... -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: The 31 is a shallow draft tender boat that actually require a lot more effort to sail at its best than the Firsts. It heels and needs the traveller dropped in gusts or it will round up! Thanks, Ozzy. As I said, Donal did not know how to trim the boat. He never mentioned any "gusts." I'm betting he'll claim it was squall now! Bwahahahahaha! RB Well, silly us. We just assumed that there would always be gusts. I'd love a sailing locality with steady, uniform winds, rather than funnels, flukes, bounces and reversals of my home ground. We were just unaware that Donal's cruising grounds were so uniform. Goodnight all. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Hmm. Interesting. I have always set my boats to self-steer on a
slight weather helm. This has little bearing on the "serious" problem Donal felt he was having at the helm, now does it? I'm sure Donal will come back and explain how gusty the conditions were! Big surprise! RB |
Hey Donal
I'd love a sailing locality with steady, uniform winds,
rather than funnels, flukes, bounces and reversals of my home ground. We were just unaware that Donal's cruising grounds were so uniform. I'd love to see a helm on a properly trimmed boat that acts like there's a "serious" problem! Bwahahahahaha! Sometimes trolling with the truth works best! Goodnight taddy! RB |
Hey Donal
So are you saying that a smaller rudder is always better? Would you advise everyone to
downsize their rudder? "CANDChelp" wrote in message ... No, not what I was saying. Moving from a powerful/big rudder to a small rudder leads to differences in response, Taddy, PLEASE read what Donal wrote again. He indicated "difficulty" with the rudder and helm. He also mentions the "small rudder" which clearly shows he thinks this was the whole problem. The 31 will steer with a feather touch when trimmed correctly. He did not say he had problems coming through a tack, or through heavy chop, or being overpowered. Furthermore, the idiot writes... "I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. " A "SERIOUS" problem??? Bwahahahahaha! Okay, Taddy! RB |
Hey Donal
Would you advise everyone to
downsize their rudder? Lose the rudder and steer with your sails. CLEARLY that's where I was going with this! Bwahahahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: We just assumed that there would always be gusts. Why? You've never had steady conditions? What type of gusts does it take to overpower you into a wrestling match with the helm? RB The only steady conditions I've ever sailed in are light light airs in summer, where one could die from boredom, and rainy days on Sydney Harbour long ago. The rest of the time is described in http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/mlakes.htm and can be checked via the Oz Bureau of Meteorology. The landlocked portions of my sailing grounds have the sort of funnels, backdrafts and odd eddies that one expects in landlocked areas with a good oceanic breeze coming in. I'm sure you must have even worse close in to high-rise areas. Wrestling matches with the helm: here are some, although I grant most are racing in Flying Tadpole II: wind funnelled through gullies off land to blast across narrow portions of the lower Murray river. One makes use of these ot pass the less brave, who let their sheets go in panic (as I did until I got my local knowledge). 40knot gusts in a 30knot wind. 180 degree wind shifts with no pause at force 5-6(-7). Backdraft off cliffs in narrows where the boat _must_ be kept on track. Again: I don't "wrestle with the helm" on Lady Kate because the small rudder makes it unproductive: one wrestles with the sheets, traveller, snotter instead. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
With sails set properly (ie, furled and set in their covers), I can walk
away from the helm of Ghost or Alien without locking the wheel. If you're fighting the wheel in reasonable conditions, you need a sailing lesson. Sorry. Good post, Skitch! care to dispute it? Bwahahahaha! RB No. Glad to see you confirm it. Thanks. |
Hey Donal
Bwahahahaha!
RB No. Glad to see you confirm it. Thanks. You should still engage autopilot or lock if available. RB |
Hey Donal
Again: I don't "wrestle with the helm" on Lady Kate because the
small rudder makes it unproductive: one wrestles with the sheets, traveller, snotter instead. So you agree that Donal needed to trim. Thanks. RB |
Hey Donal
Why not just leave the docklines on and use your imagination?
When you get a boat, you'll understand these things. For now you can keep up your subscription to Cruising World! RB |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message ... Hmm. Interesting. I have always set my boats to self-steer on a slight weather helm. This has little bearing on the "serious" problem Donal felt he was having at the helm, now does it? I'm sure Donal will come back and explain how gusty the conditions were! Big surprise! I will explain .... later!!! In the meantime, I'm having far too much fun watching you making a complete idiot of yourself. You are doing a much better job than usual. Top marks! Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
Spoken by the only guy on this NG who is known not to own a boat.
Exactly. You don't own a boat. We do. Why not take some pics and show us "your boat?" No chance, right, Skitchy???? Bwahahahahaaha!! Capt RB C&C 32 Alien NY |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message
... And I will never leave a helm unattended and unlashed. I only said "I can walk away." I lock it off or hit the autopilot button. Wow! We're so impressed! You can trim the sails so well that you can use an autopilot! Can you teach us how to do that? On my first keel boat, a full keel design, the boat could be trimmed to sail without lashing the tiller at all, if it was on a beam to close reach. On several occasions I went about 20 miles like that - Marblehead to Boston in a NW breeze. -jeff If you can't say something nice, say something surrealistic. -Zippy |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message ... He found the 31 tough to steer? What makes you think that? Idiot!! Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
Spoken by the only guy on this NG who is known not to own a boat.
Exactly. You don't own a boat. We do. Why not take some pics and show us "your boat?" No chance, right, Skitchy???? Bwahahahahaaha!! Capt RB C&C 32 Alien NY Hilarious. Bob, your trolling efforts are all such hard work for you, tedious for the target, with little art and no finish. Now, you must be given credit for persistence and your work ethic, but take note that a true successful person employs a combination of hard work and skill. I think I speak for the group when I say we would all like to see a little more rapid development from you. |
Hey Donal
CANDChelp wrote: Again: I don't "wrestle with the helm" on Lady Kate because the small rudder makes it unproductive: one wrestles with the sheets, traveller, snotter instead. So you agree that Donal needed to trim. Thanks. RB I do not now wrestle with the Lady Kate helm because the small rudder makes it unproductive. Finding out that that was the case, was part of learning the boat. It was not an instantaneous response. I would still wrestle with the helm on Flying Tadpole from time to time were I still campaigning her actively, in the circumstances I have described. I would expect others to also take a while to come to grips thoroughly with a boat foreign to them in only a few hours sailing, where there is a significant change in boat shape, or sail layout, or size, or relative power of the rudder, among sundry other things. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Jeff Morris wrote: On my first keel boat, a full keel design, the boat could be trimmed to sail without lashing the tiller at all, if it was on a beam to close reach. On several occasions I went about 20 miles like that - Marblehead to Boston in a NW breeze. But that's p[art of having a full keeler. I would suggest that on a fin keeler, not locking or lashing is asking for trouble. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Tad,
A good explanation of rudder action but I'm afraid wasted on the target I'm not sure Nutsy has a full understanding of rudder use as applied to a sailing vessel. He has a steering mentality of driving a car. I'm afraid he started learning somewhere in the middle of the learning curve. He still needs to be educated both up and down. Helming is a art that inexperienced sailor my never truly learn. Ole Thom |
Hey Donal
He found the 31 tough to steer?
What makes you think that? YOUR WORDS: The last time that I helmed an Oceanis, I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. It turned out that I just wasn't used to the small rudder. bwahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
Helming is a art
that inexperienced sailor my never truly learn. Did you read Donal's post??? Bwahahaha! There's more to the helm than just steering, dopey! A sailboats helm works ICW the sails. The best part is that I'm repeating what you all wrote some time ago, except now you're afraid to direct it at silly Donal!!! Bwahahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
And after that, we can steer up wind under bare poles.
And now that you bring that up, there was a mention of that capability by Dennis Connor on ESPN 2 a few weeks ago. RB |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:56 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com